Feedback on Patrick G's Torquer cam.
06-25-2006, 09:22 PM
#21
According to TSP's site, the MS3 is a 237/242 .603/.609, and the MS4 is a 239/242 and unknown lift... so similar duration. I didn't infer Patrick's cam was an all-out race cam. There'd be something wrong if a cam with 14* more duration didn't make more top-end power. But that wasn't his goal.
All 'racing' is done above 4000 RPM?
If you're drag racing or on an oval track, maybe. I'm with Brad... for my application, I'd prefer Patrick's current cam to the MS3/MS4 for the same reasons.
All 'racing' is done above 4000 RPM?
If you're drag racing or on an oval track, maybe. I'm with Brad... for my application, I'd prefer Patrick's current cam to the MS3/MS4 for the same reasons. 
06-25-2006, 09:47 PM
#23
With The Right Converter You Shouldent Spend Much Time Below 4k When Raceing.. I Currently Wind My Ms3 Cam'ed Motor To 6700 Rpms And Even With My Tci 3500 Stall I Doubt My Rpms Drop Anywhere Close To 4k.. In Actuality My Rpms Probaly Only Drop Down To The 4800-5200 Range.....
06-25-2006, 09:51 PM
#24
YOU THINK.. but like i said your guys are compareing apples to oranges here.. cam only the magic stick 3 or 4 will produce more power than a 244\228 cam ...... and once you make the motor breath better the bigger cam will show more gains... yea patricks cam pust power down low which is great for a road racer or a daily driver but at the strip the ms3\ will own that cam
Originally Posted by brad8266
probably because the MS4 will be a larger duration than the MS3, which will once again take away low end power and gain a lot up top. Once again it will probably be just more peak HP.
Yeah patricks setup has nice matched parts, but thats how it is supposed to be done. And I thnik his cam even on a cheaper overall setup would still have the same powerband characteristics but would just yield less power.
Yeah patricks setup has nice matched parts, but thats how it is supposed to be done. And I thnik his cam even on a cheaper overall setup would still have the same powerband characteristics but would just yield less power.
06-25-2006, 09:55 PM
#25
BTW thru an UNlocked converter\ my automatic \3500 stalled \steel driveshaft \built rearend car (with heavy *** wheels) put down more power with PRC heads and a ms3 cam than that dyno posted above...
althought this is a "apples to oranges" comparsion i think you get the point
althought this is a "apples to oranges" comparsion i think you get the point
06-25-2006, 10:57 PM
#26
Patrick didn't have anything has big in duration as the MS3/4, however his setup (90/90, AFR 225s) showed that there was no real advantage of a 231/236 over a high lift 224/228 in that configuration. They all power peaked around 6300.
Would an a 12° bigger cam rather than a 6° bigger cam have made a difference? Would that difference put more power under the curve, even for drag racing?
Remember you have around a 30-35% rev range. Even shifting at 7000 drops you to 4500-4900.
Would an a 12° bigger cam rather than a 6° bigger cam have made a difference? Would that difference put more power under the curve, even for drag racing?
Remember you have around a 30-35% rev range. Even shifting at 7000 drops you to 4500-4900.
06-25-2006, 11:09 PM
#27
no i was talking about the 1st graph.... but in actuality its more like 425 hp even with all the above listed (full acessory belt) ... so yea compare that to a manual tranny setup (and belts off) that patrick g's dyno was done on and i think anyone would agree another 25hp would be very easy for me to come by...
06-25-2006, 11:12 PM
#28
o yea i forgot a ported fast 90 setup too!!!
so milled afr heads, fast 90 setup, (port matched) and all the other goodies and 450's rwhp on a m6 car yea its good power but hell there have been much bigger numbers from much less goodies
its nothing against him .. i do like his setup but when you try and say it puts down more power than a cam thats much bigger i hope you know thats BS
so milled afr heads, fast 90 setup, (port matched) and all the other goodies and 450's rwhp on a m6 car yea its good power but hell there have been much bigger numbers from much less goodies
its nothing against him .. i do like his setup but when you try and say it puts down more power than a cam thats much bigger i hope you know thats BS
06-25-2006, 11:14 PM
#29
also my dynos were done in high humdity with temps in the mid 90's
just in the **** alone that ive mentioned my motor is makeing more power that his setup and again that was ls6 intake and budget heads
just in the **** alone that ive mentioned my motor is makeing more power that his setup and again that was ls6 intake and budget heads
06-25-2006, 11:33 PM
#30
Originally Posted by JimMueller
According to TSP's site, the MS3 is a 237/242 .603/.609, and the MS4 is a 239/242 and unknown lift... so similar duration. I didn't infer Patrick's cam was an all-out race cam. There'd be something wrong if a cam with 14* more duration didn't make more top-end power. But that wasn't his goal.
All 'racing' is done above 4000 RPM? If you're drag racing or on an oval track, maybe. I'm with Brad... for my application, I'd prefer Patrick's current cam to the MS3/MS4 for the same reasons.
All 'racing' is done above 4000 RPM?
If you're drag racing or on an oval track, maybe. I'm with Brad... for my application, I'd prefer Patrick's current cam to the MS3/MS4 for the same reasons.Wow you really narrow it down. If your a drag racer or a oval track racer, what else is there?
Last I checked almost every F body owner drag racers their cars.
Maybe you didn't notice my sig and the cam I run. Trust me I wasn't puting down any cam just throwing some light on the subject.
06-25-2006, 11:40 PM
#31
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
Patrick didn't have anything has big in duration as the MS3/4, however his setup (90/90, AFR 225s) showed that there was no real advantage of a 231/236 over a high lift 224/228 in that configuration. They all power peaked around 6300.
Would an a 12° bigger cam rather than a 6° bigger cam have made a difference? Would that difference put more power under the curve, even for drag racing?
Remember you have around a 30-35% rev range. Even shifting at 7000 drops you to 4500-4900.
Would an a 12° bigger cam rather than a 6° bigger cam have made a difference? Would that difference put more power under the curve, even for drag racing?
Remember you have around a 30-35% rev range. Even shifting at 7000 drops you to 4500-4900.
I dont see under 5800 RPM through a race no matter what. When I shift my RPM's sit at nearly 6000 still. Thanks to my TC.
Also it is a waste of time to compair the 2 cams, they are set up for 2 totally different type of drivers, and different wants/needs.
Yes 12 degrees more duration would have the ability to make more power if not then we would have have a Z06 cam in out cars.
Also that 231/236 cam you say what cam is that?
He had a Trak and a 234/238 cam, unless that T rak was the actural cam card numbers.
06-26-2006, 04:13 AM
#34
TECH Addict
Originally Posted by brad8266
heres proof from patrick g's dyno pulls. This cam makes 350lbs-ft @ 3000, thats some serious down low power. That setup pulls hard all through the powerband rather than making big power just up top but not making much down low. Its not all about peak numbers.
http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_dyno224.jpg
http://guerragroup.com/2000TA_dyno224.jpg
Surely you need a COMPARABLE dyno chart from both cams running similar mods???
So far all I've heard in this thread is it'll beat the MS4, but where are the dyno graphs for the MS4?
Now I'm not saying a MS4 will produce such a good low end, but how can anyone sit there and claim it will comparitively nothing when they have no proof and no idea what it's capable of.
MS4 specs: 239/242 .649/.610 on a 111LSA
BTW - I personally highly respect PatrickG and PredatorZ, they both really know their stuff and it's well worth reading and respecting any advice they offer.
But making assumptions based on a lack of info and then giving advice based off of it (which is what most of this thread appears to be) is IMO vey wrong and mis-leading for others.
06-26-2006, 09:01 AM
#36
Gentlemen,
My cam was custom ground for my personal tastes with my car. With good flowing heads and intake, I was able to chose a smaller cam than is typical on this board and lay down some strong numbers under the curve. All this without the typical cam surge, without the soggy bottom-end torque, and without poor fuel economy. It is a true no-compromise setup.
As for the current dyno numbers in my signature, they are a little on the low side for what I have but they can be easily improved (from a numerical standpoint). The dyno correction was off the day I dynoed (about 2% low) and I was running through my less than ideal flowing catted y-pipe and single 3" exhaust. If I were to wait for a high barometer day with low humidity, and run a race exhaust, my dyno would be much closer to 480/430 rwhp/rwtq. But since everybody wanted to see a dyno sheet right away, I decided to post a realistic dyno sheet of my car in it's every-day setup. Remember, my car is my cross-country daily driver. For me, it's ideal. For others, they may want worse street manners in exchange for a small gain in top-end power.
My cam was custom ground for my personal tastes with my car. With good flowing heads and intake, I was able to chose a smaller cam than is typical on this board and lay down some strong numbers under the curve. All this without the typical cam surge, without the soggy bottom-end torque, and without poor fuel economy. It is a true no-compromise setup.
As for the current dyno numbers in my signature, they are a little on the low side for what I have but they can be easily improved (from a numerical standpoint). The dyno correction was off the day I dynoed (about 2% low) and I was running through my less than ideal flowing catted y-pipe and single 3" exhaust. If I were to wait for a high barometer day with low humidity, and run a race exhaust, my dyno would be much closer to 480/430 rwhp/rwtq. But since everybody wanted to see a dyno sheet right away, I decided to post a realistic dyno sheet of my car in it's every-day setup. Remember, my car is my cross-country daily driver. For me, it's ideal. For others, they may want worse street manners in exchange for a small gain in top-end power.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
06-26-2006, 09:53 AM
#37
ok great!
hey patrick, do you believe that your cam makes more peak power than the ms3\4 cams would in a simlar setup car?
o yea to answer the shift extension comment.. after reviewing some logs of my old runs.. i found my car is luckey to see 5200 rpms.. in fact it only spends a seccond or so below 4k and does not return to that part of the powerband while at wot...
so at the strip, how would would a 224\228 cam be better? yea its great for patrick's usage but in a stalled car your converter will slip right thrugh that rpm range so i dont see the point of emphisizing power that low in the powerband (for the drag strip use)
hey patrick, do you believe that your cam makes more peak power than the ms3\4 cams would in a simlar setup car?
o yea to answer the shift extension comment.. after reviewing some logs of my old runs.. i found my car is luckey to see 5200 rpms.. in fact it only spends a seccond or so below 4k and does not return to that part of the powerband while at wot...
so at the strip, how would would a 224\228 cam be better? yea its great for patrick's usage but in a stalled car your converter will slip right thrugh that rpm range so i dont see the point of emphisizing power that low in the powerband (for the drag strip use)
06-26-2006, 10:06 AM
#38
Originally Posted by Jpr5690
ok great!
hey patrick, do you believe that your cam makes more peak power than the ms3\4 cams would in a simlar setup car?
o yea to answer the shift extension comment.. after reviewing some logs of my old runs.. i found my car is luckey to see 5200 rpms.. in fact it only spends a seccond or so below 4k and does not return to that part of the powerband while at wot...
so at the strip, how would would a 224\228 cam be better? yea its great for patrick's usage but in a stalled car your converter will slip right thrugh that rpm range so i dont see the point of emphisizing power that low in the powerband (for the drag strip use)
hey patrick, do you believe that your cam makes more peak power than the ms3\4 cams would in a simlar setup car?
o yea to answer the shift extension comment.. after reviewing some logs of my old runs.. i found my car is luckey to see 5200 rpms.. in fact it only spends a seccond or so below 4k and does not return to that part of the powerband while at wot...
so at the strip, how would would a 224\228 cam be better? yea its great for patrick's usage but in a stalled car your converter will slip right thrugh that rpm range so i dont see the point of emphisizing power that low in the powerband (for the drag strip use)
and even then, if its a street/strip car, its really good for M6 cars...
so if you're like patrick with a M6 street car and want a torquey cam so you can idle in 6th, its a good choice.
if you're driving an street/strip auto with a huge stall, its pointless..
if you're driving a M6, and honestly dont care for about perfect street manners, for whatever reason, then get a diff cam.. (example: the rest of the car is bearly streetable anyway)
i dont see the prob.. its not like its magic or anything. whats everyone fighting about?
06-26-2006, 10:16 AM
#39
i completly agree.. the argument is there are some people that claim this came "owns the ms4 throught the powerband"
THATS REALLY IT... IM NOT SAYING ITS NOT A GREAT CAM IM JUST SAYING FOR US DRAG RACERS THE MS4 WILL MAKE MORE POWER WHERE WE WANT IT.. AND WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO SAY A 224\228 CAM IS MORE POWERFUL THATS TOTAL BS
THATS REALLY IT... IM NOT SAYING ITS NOT A GREAT CAM IM JUST SAYING FOR US DRAG RACERS THE MS4 WILL MAKE MORE POWER WHERE WE WANT IT.. AND WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO SAY A 224\228 CAM IS MORE POWERFUL THATS TOTAL BS
Originally Posted by MrDude_1
its not a drag race cam, its a street cam that is better then stock at the dragstrip.
and even then, if its a street/strip car, its really good for M6 cars...
so if you're like patrick with a M6 street car and want a torquey cam so you can idle in 6th, its a good choice.
if you're driving an street/strip auto with a huge stall, its pointless..
if you're driving a M6, and honestly dont care for about perfect street manners, for whatever reason, then get a diff cam.. (example: the rest of the car is bearly streetable anyway)
i dont see the prob.. its not like its magic or anything. whats everyone fighting about?
and even then, if its a street/strip car, its really good for M6 cars...
so if you're like patrick with a M6 street car and want a torquey cam so you can idle in 6th, its a good choice.
if you're driving an street/strip auto with a huge stall, its pointless..
if you're driving a M6, and honestly dont care for about perfect street manners, for whatever reason, then get a diff cam.. (example: the rest of the car is bearly streetable anyway)
i dont see the prob.. its not like its magic or anything. whats everyone fighting about?
