Ok, I dropped my car off monday for a cam install. Called them today to see how things were. Well, they pulled the motor (!), and pulled the heads (!). I had told them I didn't think that needed to be done, but he wanted to because of the lifters, and apparently GM said it needed to be done (I know it didn't). Well, whats done is done. Now I get worse news. Just got a call, he said hes got 3 lifters that are scored and a couple of the front cam bearings (!). So now I need a few new lifters and cam bearings (tells me the bearings will be cheap). Heading over after work to take a look, can anyone give advice or has anyone had this kind of situation?

 

Is there a possibility of a oil pump going bad here? maybe while he has the motor apart you should upgrade to an ARE blueprinted pump, it should run around $250 installed. Since the motor is out and partially apart it might not be that much!

 

Mongoose, good idea. I may ask him about that this afternoon. I had not noticed any fluctuations in oil pressure, and knowing the history of oil pumps on these cars i kept close watch. Pressure was always pretty constant at over 40psi once warm. But I may look into that...thanks!

 

If your oil pump had taken a dump, you'd have known it. Unless... the oil pump took a dump just as the car was pulled in for the cam install... then you might be ok. But if that motor has run for any appreciable amount of time with low or no oil pressure, you'd have a pretty noticeable knock/rattling sound, which means you could pretty much kiss your lower bearings goodbye. If it ran too long in this condition... your rotating assembly might be damaged as well.

I definitely regret not replacing my oil pump with a ported one while I was in there.

Since you have a '01 T/A, I doubt that's the case. It's the '98-'00 oil pumps that seem to randomly crap out. BUT... I would highly suggest that you use an ARE ported oil pump. My buddy and I did a H/C/header install on is '99 SS convertible, and he's picked up about 15-psi of oil pressure across the entire RPM range, running up to about 90-95 psi at WOT, and around 60-psi under normal running conditions.

A cam install doesn't necessitate a motor removal... I did mine in my garage with the heads on... using the now infamous "magnet insurance trick". I hope you don't get killed on the cost of the install by them for the motor removal. I know that most professional installers (who actually know what they're doing with an LS1) range from $500-$800 for cam installs...

I'd be very interested to know what scored those lifters/cam bearings. Maybe the camshaft retainer plate wasn't sealing off the oil gallery properly and your car has been running with low oil pressures to the upper valvetrain... but I think that would produce quite the audible noise or other clues as well.

I don't know... maybe someone will have a better idea... I live a charmed life... never a problem with any of my self-installs, and no parts have ever taken a random **** on me... knock on wood!! Good luck, buddy.

<small>[ March 27, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Bluestreak ]</small>

 

Yeah, I know the motor did not need to be pulled, and I probably will get hammered on the cost. But by luck it was done, and these problems were found. Perhaps scored was the wrong term, I believe he described it as gouged, I believe he said a couple of lobes were gouged too...said it looked like it was cause by dirt. So I suppose that would take the oil pump out of the equation. Prior to this, the car was not making any noticable engine noise, and didn't feel like there was power loss. However he took a pull on the dyno for me before the install...said over the phone it pulled 280hp and 290 torque on a dynojet. Way low for a bolt on car.

 

You know, if you're not gentle as you work the old cam out, or the new cam in, you can easily gouge the cam bearings. I've actually heard of one person who knocked the rear cam bearing out of its seat by being too rough as he fed the new cam into place.

If the bearing were to come out in the course of a normal "heads-left-on" type install like I did, you wouldn't know it until you started the car... and had low or no oil pressure and a pretty significant valvetrain noise. Engine vibration would be noticeable... but with a new cam on first startup, you could easily mistake that for cam lope, and thus, normal behavior due to the new cam profile.

But that would not explain the damage to the lifters. I would think that it would take a significant amount of dirt to do that kind of damage. And I seriously doubt that theory, anyway. Take a very good look at things when you stop by, I'm beginning to wonder how honest your mechanic is being with you.

 

I'll tell you what... If that cam has gouged lobes due to dirt then you need to question the manufacturer of the cam. If it is GM I'd say they owe you a cam. I am an engineer in a cam plant and I know that induction hardened lobes will not get scratched/gouged/nicked if properly heat treated. If the surface hardness is out of spec on it or the effective case depth isn't deep enough then it is possible that dirt may scratch the lobe, however if it is gouged I'd say it happened elsewhere and you need to question the integrity of your mechanic.

 

Thanks fellas, keep it coming, I'm listening to everything. I greatly appreciate all the responses.

 

NHARTA01, I'm sorry to hear about your misfortunes. I hope it gets fixed correctly without a huge hit to your wallet. I do hope that this is a reputable shop that you trust and that they arent "taking you for a ride".

This is a major reason why I dont understand how people can take their cars in to someone else for modifications. It's your baby, it's your hobby, take the time, buy the manuals, get the tools and do the job right. I find much more satisfaction in driving my modded car, knowing I did the work on it instead of paying too much to someone else.
Money saved in labor costs can be well spent elsewhere on the vehicle. Just my .02 cents worth.

I wish you the best of luck though my brother. And you might want to think about going a little deeper with the mods now that they have it tore down to parade rest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

Oh boy. I 100% agree with these guys about checking everything out very well.Hope your mechanics are on the up and up. Ask to see all parts, and for that matter, keep them just in case you have questions later.

 

Damn man, that guy turned a routine 5 hour job into a cash money making task. I'd never ever ever go to that place again, ever. Just my 2 cents. I've done drive in/drive out cam changes in 5 hours.

Did you go with some sort of crazy extreme cam where he felt you needed new lifters? Dirt wearing down a cam lobe? WTF? Fishy man...fishy.

 

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

I just got back from the shop and took a good look at everything. There was noticable scoring on the front cam bearing, you could see a decent amount of material had been removed/scored on the inside (especially considering the motor had only just over 10k miles on it). There was also scoring on 3 of the front cam lobes and 3 lifters. Couldn't feel it, but could definitely see it. The other lobes and lifters were crystal clean. The 2 guys working on the car were very helpful, answered any questions. I do feel more comfortable that I'm not being shafted, although it still boggles the mind that they pulled the motor to install the cam.

As to why I didn't do the install myself, well I don't have access to a garage (live in an apartment), don't have some of the required tools, and don't feel comfortable that if I dig into my motor its going to run when I put it back together! I don't have qualms about putting on headers myself, but an undertaking like this I thought best left to the professionals.

 

Before I had my cam installed I called my local dealer just for kicks to see what they'd charge. They swore up and down that the engine needed to be pulled (even claimed that one of their mechanics was an LS1 expert and had built several of them) and quoted me 30 hours labor to do the swap!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> Needless to say I told them thanks, but no thanks.

Regardless of the method, however, the cam damage sounds a little fishy to me as well. Good luck though - hope it works out for you.

 

This sounds absolutely crazy! If they yanked the motor in order to do the cam thay have no idea what they are doing. BTW, the moter comes out from the bottom far easier. They probably scored the bearings while yanking out the cam. The cam is billet steel and will tear the **** out of those bearings. How did you choose these guys? Have they ever worked on an LS1? It cost me $550 for a cam install.

 

They did drop the motor from the bottom, took the whole motor/trans combo out in 1 shot.

The bearings, lobes and lifters that were scored don't look like they were scored from the cam getting whacked around during the removal. It does look like they were scored from something contacting them when they were spinning.

As for the final labor, I don't want to imagine it yet. But I'm stuck waiting another 2 days for the replacement lifters and bearings to be delivered.

 

First and foremost, I would find a way to get my damn car out of that shop! I would get a truck and trailer, bag up the engine, and take it to a reputable place. How can you trust them now when they couldn't even do a simple cam swap with the engine in the car?! I know that Mikey with Rapid Motorsports is in Pennsylvania, and Cartek is in New Jersey. I would HIGHLY recommend that you give one of them a call and speak with them before going any further. Both shops are competent installers that know what they're doing. I would NOT let this shop touch my car again! Who's to say that they didn't tear the bearings up while pulling the stock cam out? IMO, these guys couldn't pick their @$$ out of a lineup. Cut your losses while you can, and have some reassurance that the car will be put back together properly! I highly recommend giving one of the quality shops a call.