Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next?
07-17-2002, 03:13 AM
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Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I went to the dyno today, after making sure my motor was solidly broken in. 2600 miles.
Here are the results :
<img src="http://home.attbi.com/~akwang408/dynorun.jpg" alt=" - " />
As you can see, all the motor runs were very consistent. 3 runs all motor and 3 runs with N2O. I am alittle upset that I only got 369RWHP when I was expecting closer to 400-410RWHP. I knew my car wasn't running as strong as 400RWHP from my track times, but I figured it was just that it needed some dyno tuning. As you can see from the graph, the AF is pretty solid, 12.8-13.1. The timing is all 29-30.5 as measured from Autotap. I have everything worked out, I was ready to tune, but I didn't see any where that needed it. Maybe I could take away some fuel below 4k rpm, but I was more concerned with the peak power. The graph looks good, just about 30-40RWHP low.
So this is what I have : 99 C5, stick, 3.42 diff, cold air intake, lt headers, exhaust, stock cats, ported MAF, ARE stage 2 heads, TR 224 cam with 114LSA, LS6 manifold. Am I missing something or should I be making more than 369RWHP? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
Could it be anything like improper installation? Or do I need to get rid of these heads/cam? 369RWHP... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Here are the results :
<img src="http://home.attbi.com/~akwang408/dynorun.jpg" alt=" - " />
As you can see, all the motor runs were very consistent. 3 runs all motor and 3 runs with N2O. I am alittle upset that I only got 369RWHP when I was expecting closer to 400-410RWHP. I knew my car wasn't running as strong as 400RWHP from my track times, but I figured it was just that it needed some dyno tuning. As you can see from the graph, the AF is pretty solid, 12.8-13.1. The timing is all 29-30.5 as measured from Autotap. I have everything worked out, I was ready to tune, but I didn't see any where that needed it. Maybe I could take away some fuel below 4k rpm, but I was more concerned with the peak power. The graph looks good, just about 30-40RWHP low.
So this is what I have : 99 C5, stick, 3.42 diff, cold air intake, lt headers, exhaust, stock cats, ported MAF, ARE stage 2 heads, TR 224 cam with 114LSA, LS6 manifold. Am I missing something or should I be making more than 369RWHP? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
Could it be anything like improper installation? Or do I need to get rid of these heads/cam? 369RWHP... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
07-17-2002, 05:19 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? ok....not to be a $@%^ or dog on sponsors...but from what i have heard from a couple of people and read in many posts is that ARE are great people but there heads just aren't putting out the numbers like GTP...along with a couple of other sponsors....just a thought guys. RIcky
07-17-2002, 08:30 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I have the same setup, ARE stage 2 heads, and TR224 on a 112 ls. I also am not getting the power I expected to get. I pulled 379/339 hp/tq, and 480/420 hp/tq with a 100 shot.. On a mustang dyno.
At the Camaro Superfest, I only put down 360/411 and 347/350 hp/tq. With a 100 shot I only managed 448/467.
I dont know if the problem is in the heads, or in the cam. With the cam being the easiest to switch, I'm going to switch cams & redyno, and hit the track to see if that is the problem. If that's not it, then the heads come out & I'll go with something else.
I'm still waiting on advice from ARE on what cam to go with.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
At the Camaro Superfest, I only put down 360/411 and 347/350 hp/tq. With a 100 shot I only managed 448/467.
I dont know if the problem is in the heads, or in the cam. With the cam being the easiest to switch, I'm going to switch cams & redyno, and hit the track to see if that is the problem. If that's not it, then the heads come out & I'll go with something else.
I'm still waiting on advice from ARE on what cam to go with.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
07-17-2002, 08:36 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? 380RWHP on a Mustang dyno is over 400 on a dynojet all things equal.
As far as cams that depends on intake port volume and flow numbers at what lift. My car loves the 226/234 cam. Ran 122.60mph with that cam on small valved heads. (2.02/1.57)
The XE-R cams are giving a little more power at similiar duration.
Best of luck with getting everything resolved.
Cheers,
Chris
As far as cams that depends on intake port volume and flow numbers at what lift. My car loves the 226/234 cam. Ran 122.60mph with that cam on small valved heads. (2.02/1.57)
The XE-R cams are giving a little more power at similiar duration.
Best of luck with getting everything resolved.
Cheers,
Chris
07-17-2002, 02:51 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? 98darkbird, where do you find GTP heads?
Onyx, what is your setup?
BlackSunshine, sounds like you're in about the same boat. I'd be really interested in hearing what cam you decide to go with and what kind of improvement you make. The thing is I want to maintain some emissions friendliness, that's why I went with this "milder" cam. But even still, I think 369 is way too low. Do others agree?
Chris, good numbers. What heads are those? And what is the XE-R cam?
BTW, this was on a dynojet dyno.
<small>[ July 17, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: akw408 ]</small>
Onyx, what is your setup?
BlackSunshine, sounds like you're in about the same boat. I'd be really interested in hearing what cam you decide to go with and what kind of improvement you make. The thing is I want to maintain some emissions friendliness, that's why I went with this "milder" cam. But even still, I think 369 is way too low. Do others agree?
Chris, good numbers. What heads are those? And what is the XE-R cam?
BTW, this was on a dynojet dyno.
<small>[ July 17, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: akw408 ]</small>
07-17-2002, 10:46 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I just did a big search on everything related to heads and I have a few questions :
1) Why are the valves on ARE S2 heads 2.055/2.08 while everyone else seems to have 2.02" on stock cubes? Would that hurt velocity alot? Are ARE S2 heads hogged out and really intended for big cube engines?
2) What is the difference between 5.3L, 5.7L, and 6.0L heads? Why would you choose one over another?
What heads have worked well with the TR224, which is 224/224 .560"/.560" with 114LSA?
1) Why are the valves on ARE S2 heads 2.055/2.08 while everyone else seems to have 2.02" on stock cubes? Would that hurt velocity alot? Are ARE S2 heads hogged out and really intended for big cube engines?
2) What is the difference between 5.3L, 5.7L, and 6.0L heads? Why would you choose one over another?
What heads have worked well with the TR224, which is 224/224 .560"/.560" with 114LSA?
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07-17-2002, 11:07 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? Ok but not to get anyone mad here but my small JPR Stage I with, LS6 01 cam made 360/361 on the dyno <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" />
07-18-2002, 12:12 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I aldo have ARE stage 2 heads and TR224 cam and all the bolt ons. Tuning was good and I only pulled 379RWHP/346RWTQ, which i think is really low compared to everywhere else. So you think the heads are not as good as lets day GTP, MTI, or cartek??
07-18-2002, 12:41 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BadAssY2KTA:
<strong>I aldo have ARE stage 2 heads and TR224 cam and all the bolt ons. Tuning was good and I only pulled 379RWHP/346RWTQ, which i think is really low compared to everywhere else. So you think the heads are not as good as lets day GTP, MTI, or cartek??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assume that was locked up?
It's not that the ARE heads are bad in the least. However, I feel that the TR224 cam is better suited to a set of MTI or GTP heads. These are the combos we are consistantly getting the most power out of.
From what I have seen, the ARE heads like a large duration exhaust lobe. Supposedly, ARE has made some changes very recently, so I do not know if this is still the case. This is just what I have seen locally in the past 2 years with their heads. Look at what the fast n/a ARE cars are running - large split pattern cams.
Everything has to work extremely well together, especially matching the heads to the camshaft. That's why I always recommend purchasing a heads/cam package from a single vendor. Sure, your car will start up and run if you mix and match parts, but it definitely will not be optimized.
Jason
<small>[ July 18, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Jason99T/A ]</small>
<strong>I aldo have ARE stage 2 heads and TR224 cam and all the bolt ons. Tuning was good and I only pulled 379RWHP/346RWTQ, which i think is really low compared to everywhere else. So you think the heads are not as good as lets day GTP, MTI, or cartek??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assume that was locked up?
It's not that the ARE heads are bad in the least. However, I feel that the TR224 cam is better suited to a set of MTI or GTP heads. These are the combos we are consistantly getting the most power out of.
From what I have seen, the ARE heads like a large duration exhaust lobe. Supposedly, ARE has made some changes very recently, so I do not know if this is still the case. This is just what I have seen locally in the past 2 years with their heads. Look at what the fast n/a ARE cars are running - large split pattern cams.
Everything has to work extremely well together, especially matching the heads to the camshaft. That's why I always recommend purchasing a heads/cam package from a single vendor. Sure, your car will start up and run if you mix and match parts, but it definitely will not be optimized.
Jason
<small>[ July 18, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Jason99T/A ]</small>
07-18-2002, 03:47 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? Contact ARE I have seen a few posts about low dyno numbers and they are actually sending out new revised heads to their customers which is very nice of them.I read some where in a another post and the guy picked up a lot of power.All you have to do is pay shipping charges.
07-18-2002, 08:48 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I dont know that it's a problem with either product, I'm not saying that. I think that Jason hit it right on the head. I should have bought the total package from one vendor.
I called ARE, & the solution was to bring the car to them, and let them tune it. My timing is set way to low, 23-24 at WOT. I suspect this was in anticipation for the nitrous. But I would rather dial in the motor and then look for a way to retard timing for the No2 runs.
I too thought that I would pull down 400 on a Dynojet, but at Camaro Superfest, I only pulled 360 on motor. So there are other issues. In defense, I had a miss while trying to spray. I got 411 on a 100 shot. Changed the plugs (gapped at 35) and picked up power to 448. This is down from 480 on a Mustang Dyno.
So there are some issues here, & I'm not convinced that all of it is in tuning, and I'm not willing to spend the $$ to get the car to Toronto, spend another $500 to tune it, just to find out that I didn't pick up anything, or 5 hp.. I'd rather switch out to a cam that ARE recomends, then take it to them for tuning. Then if there is an issue, it's more obvious what is at fault.
My TQ # are way lower than what they should be, and that bothers me more than the HP. My 380 HP # were unlocked, so I could easily have 400 there, and 425 locked on a Dynojet..
So why am I complaining, well, trying to get answers. To add to the point that there is a problem, my MPH is, not down, it's just not better than with bolt ons 116. So, just looking for answers.
Had a bad posi, fixed it, MPH still not up, but hard to compare because of traction & weather factors, but factoring in those, and I doubt it would be much higher. I expected around 119 on up. Done venting.
I called ARE, & the solution was to bring the car to them, and let them tune it. My timing is set way to low, 23-24 at WOT. I suspect this was in anticipation for the nitrous. But I would rather dial in the motor and then look for a way to retard timing for the No2 runs.
I too thought that I would pull down 400 on a Dynojet, but at Camaro Superfest, I only pulled 360 on motor. So there are other issues. In defense, I had a miss while trying to spray. I got 411 on a 100 shot. Changed the plugs (gapped at 35) and picked up power to 448. This is down from 480 on a Mustang Dyno.
So there are some issues here, & I'm not convinced that all of it is in tuning, and I'm not willing to spend the $$ to get the car to Toronto, spend another $500 to tune it, just to find out that I didn't pick up anything, or 5 hp.. I'd rather switch out to a cam that ARE recomends, then take it to them for tuning. Then if there is an issue, it's more obvious what is at fault.
My TQ # are way lower than what they should be, and that bothers me more than the HP. My 380 HP # were unlocked, so I could easily have 400 there, and 425 locked on a Dynojet..
So why am I complaining, well, trying to get answers. To add to the point that there is a problem, my MPH is, not down, it's just not better than with bolt ons 116. So, just looking for answers.
Had a bad posi, fixed it, MPH still not up, but hard to compare because of traction & weather factors, but factoring in those, and I doubt it would be much higher. I expected around 119 on up. Done venting.
07-18-2002, 10:37 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? No complaints here. ARE Stage 2 with a 224/224 114 .581 cam. Pulled 403RWHP and 372RWTQ (expected to be low do to my setup) after tuning at ARE. We did have to feed the pig more fuel and bigger injectors. That's through 1 7/8's Grots, cats and a Corsa.
07-18-2002, 10:43 AM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? What injectors were you running b4 you upsized the injectors. The 28#'s are good for up to 440rwhp. Many people on this board are using them. Why would you need bigger ones to produce 403rwhp?
07-18-2002, 01:25 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? I only put down 379 HP with my ARE S2 heads using an XE-R 224/224 114 cam. I got my cam from Nick and he never tried to steer me away from that. However, I'm wondering if the camshaft choice is an issue. I'm thinking of switching but not sure what would be my choice as a 230/228 appeals to me. He uses 1.60 exhaust valves so I would have assumed exhaust flow was good and that more intake was needed, but it seems those that ran best with his heads used the 226/234 112. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
07-18-2002, 01:42 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? you think with all that exaust maybe your cats, not to mention STOCK cats, which arent bad, but still, are blocking up all the extra exaust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> come on thats at least 15-20 horses with heads and a cam
-or am i missing something
<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: R U A LS1 ]</small>
-or am i missing something
<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: R U A LS1 ]</small>
07-18-2002, 07:01 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ragtop 99:
<strong>I only put down 379 HP with my ARE S2 heads using an XE-R 224/224 114 cam. I got my cam from Nick and he never tried to steer me away from that. However, I'm wondering if the camshaft choice is an issue. I'm thinking of switching but not sure what would be my choice as a 230/228 appeals to me. He uses 1.60 exhaust valves so I would have assumed exhaust flow was good and that more intake was needed, but it seems those that ran best with his heads used the 226/234 112. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For 379RWHP and 3800lbs, you ran a good time. This would be one of those times that I wouldn't put too much weight on dyno numbers (since they can have some variation), but of course, ultimately the owner has to make that call.
I have 10RWHP less, but weigh about 400lbs less, and trapped 114.5mph. With just bolt ons and 335RWHP, I trapped 112mph.
<strong>I only put down 379 HP with my ARE S2 heads using an XE-R 224/224 114 cam. I got my cam from Nick and he never tried to steer me away from that. However, I'm wondering if the camshaft choice is an issue. I'm thinking of switching but not sure what would be my choice as a 230/228 appeals to me. He uses 1.60 exhaust valves so I would have assumed exhaust flow was good and that more intake was needed, but it seems those that ran best with his heads used the 226/234 112. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For 379RWHP and 3800lbs, you ran a good time. This would be one of those times that I wouldn't put too much weight on dyno numbers (since they can have some variation), but of course, ultimately the owner has to make that call.
I have 10RWHP less, but weigh about 400lbs less, and trapped 114.5mph. With just bolt ons and 335RWHP, I trapped 112mph.
07-18-2002, 07:04 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by R U A LS1:
<strong>you think with all that exaust maybe your cats, not to mention STOCK cats, which arent bad, but still, are blocking up all the extra exaust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> come on thats at least 15-20 horses with heads and a cam
-or am i missing something</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do people usually have to remove their cats to hit 400RWHP? I hadn't heard that before, but then again alot of people don't mention what type of exhaust they're running when they dyno. I am using long tube headers (TPIS), stock cats (dual, since it is a C5), with full cat-back.
<strong>you think with all that exaust maybe your cats, not to mention STOCK cats, which arent bad, but still, are blocking up all the extra exaust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> come on thats at least 15-20 horses with heads and a cam
-or am i missing something</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do people usually have to remove their cats to hit 400RWHP? I hadn't heard that before, but then again alot of people don't mention what type of exhaust they're running when they dyno. I am using long tube headers (TPIS), stock cats (dual, since it is a C5), with full cat-back.
07-18-2002, 07:07 PM
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Re: Poor dyno results on Stage 2 heads and cam, what next? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Are you guys sure your cars were tuned.. I know guys running 400rwhp plus ARE packages.. Richie Carbone put down 408rwhp initially with 4.10's and Ed Wright tuning..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In regards to making power, what else is there to tune besides ignition timing and fuel? I monitored both of those and found them to be good. What else can I do, using the LS1 Edit?
<strong>Are you guys sure your cars were tuned.. I know guys running 400rwhp plus ARE packages.. Richie Carbone put down 408rwhp initially with 4.10's and Ed Wright tuning..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In regards to making power, what else is there to tune besides ignition timing and fuel? I monitored both of those and found them to be good. What else can I do, using the LS1 Edit?