MS4 110 Lsa First start up
03-08-2007, 11:49 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by jub jub
That thing has a little over 18 degrees of overlap so a low RPM idle will be out of the question. Even idling at 1700 rpm it was loping pretty bad. 
Last edited by Killer_Bluebird; 03-08-2007 at 11:56 AM.
03-08-2007, 11:55 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Man, so i'm a dick because I explain something. 
How much more Lehman can I get by saying that lifts have very, very, very little to do with PTV at the durations we are running. (you can literally say nothing to do)
Look it is simple, at TDC valves are closed (lowest lift point), at or close to BDC, valves are open to their maximum (piston is in the bottom), max lift.
So the danger lies when the piston comes back up close to TDC. If at that time the valve is still opened too much, whack, Mr. piston meets Miss valve.
The time action of the valve opening or closing is dictated by the Durations and the Valve Events of the cam. Valve Events are dictated by Duration, LSA and ICL. Lifts are not involved at all.
Exemple: a 224/224 .563/.563 112+4 LSA (TR224), has the same VEs than 224/224 .581/.581 112+4 (Comp XE-R) and the same VEs as 224/224 .636/.636 112+4 (Comp LSK).
If the TR 224 clears a certain head so will the others even though you can see the lift difference. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME VEs
Now change the VEs (which means a different LSA/ICL) and at a certain level, you can find yourself with a cam that doesn't fit even with same Durations.
I really can't explain simpler than that.
How much more Lehman can I get by saying that lifts have very, very, very little to do with PTV at the durations we are running. (you can literally say nothing to do)
Look it is simple, at TDC valves are closed (lowest lift point), at or close to BDC, valves are open to their maximum (piston is in the bottom), max lift.
So the danger lies when the piston comes back up close to TDC. If at that time the valve is still opened too much, whack, Mr. piston meets Miss valve.
The time action of the valve opening or closing is dictated by the Durations and the Valve Events of the cam. Valve Events are dictated by Duration, LSA and ICL. Lifts are not involved at all.
Exemple: a 224/224 .563/.563 112+4 LSA (TR224), has the same VEs than 224/224 .581/.581 112+4 (Comp XE-R) and the same VEs as 224/224 .636/.636 112+4 (Comp LSK).
If the TR 224 clears a certain head so will the others even though you can see the lift difference. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME VEs
Now change the VEs (which means a different LSA/ICL) and at a certain level, you can find yourself with a cam that doesn't fit even with same Durations.
I really can't explain simpler than that.
03-08-2007, 12:52 PM
#67
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Man, so i'm a dick because I explain something.
How much more Lehman can I get by saying that lifts have very, very, very little to do with PTV at the durations we are running. (you can literally say nothing to do)
Look it is simple, at TDC valves are closed (lowest lift point), at or close to BDC, valves are open to their maximum (piston is in the bottom), max lift.
So the danger lies when the piston comes back up close to TDC. If at that time the valve is still opened too much, whack, Mr. piston meets Miss valve.
The time action of the valve opening or closing is dictated by the Durations and the Valve Events of the cam. Valve Events are dictated by Duration, LSA and ICL. Lifts are not involved at all.
Exemple: a 224/224 .563/.563 112+4 LSA (TR224), has the same VEs than 224/224 .581/.581 112+4 (Comp XE-R) and the same VEs as 224/224 .636/.636 112+4 (Comp LSK).
If the TR 224 clears a certain head so will the others even though you can see the lift difference. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME VEs
Now change the VEs (which means a different LSA/ICL) and at a certain level, you can find yourself with a cam that doesn't fit even with same Durations.
I really can't explain simpler than that.
How much more Lehman can I get by saying that lifts have very, very, very little to do with PTV at the durations we are running. (you can literally say nothing to do)
Look it is simple, at TDC valves are closed (lowest lift point), at or close to BDC, valves are open to their maximum (piston is in the bottom), max lift.
So the danger lies when the piston comes back up close to TDC. If at that time the valve is still opened too much, whack, Mr. piston meets Miss valve.
The time action of the valve opening or closing is dictated by the Durations and the Valve Events of the cam. Valve Events are dictated by Duration, LSA and ICL. Lifts are not involved at all.
Exemple: a 224/224 .563/.563 112+4 LSA (TR224), has the same VEs than 224/224 .581/.581 112+4 (Comp XE-R) and the same VEs as 224/224 .636/.636 112+4 (Comp LSK).
If the TR 224 clears a certain head so will the others even though you can see the lift difference. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME VEs
Now change the VEs (which means a different LSA/ICL) and at a certain level, you can find yourself with a cam that doesn't fit even with same Durations.
I really can't explain simpler than that.
03-08-2007, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
Just so you know I called TSP and i have the same set-up and they say it will work fine as its less than .005 difference between the MS4 on a 110LSA and A 111 LSA so quite feeding us full of **** unless you have actually talked to TSP like I have.
03-08-2007, 03:52 PM
#69
It doesnt look like Im the one making the fool out of myself. Like I said in previous post , I agree that what you call "valve events" have something to do with ptv clearance, but you saying lift has absolutely nothing to do with it is completly false.
03-08-2007, 04:14 PM
#70
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm
Go to the second animation... perfect example of how overlap and lsa affect PTV. Max lift happens when the piston is plenty far away fromt the valve even at .900 lift or more. Lift has nothing to do with PTV. It is duration and or overlap. i.e. LSA/ICL.
One could argue ramp rate and lobe design could affect PTV but nothing like the overlap, LSA, and ICL does.
Go to the second animation... perfect example of how overlap and lsa affect PTV. Max lift happens when the piston is plenty far away fromt the valve even at .900 lift or more. Lift has nothing to do with PTV. It is duration and or overlap. i.e. LSA/ICL.
One could argue ramp rate and lobe design could affect PTV but nothing like the overlap, LSA, and ICL does.
03-08-2007, 04:18 PM
#71
Originally Posted by 93camaro_zzz
It doesnt look like Im the one making the fool out of myself. Like I said in previous post , I agree that what you call "valve events" have something to do with ptv clearance, but you saying lift has absolutely nothing to do with it is completly false.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ls1_dyno_tech/
it doesn't add up...
Id like to personally call out anyone who has had this cam.. and actually had the ptv clearance issues..
Ive heard little to no issues regarding TSP and their product..
Please do not insult Predator... He went out of his way to enlighten us in his knowledge.
Today, the base tune goes in.. Ill get some more video's up
03-08-2007, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bshonda
so what your saying is that if i have .100 clearance on intake and .80 on exhaust PTV on a .563 lift cam, then i can run a .664 lift cam with the exact same VE and not hit the piston? your sure about this? lift has nothing to do PTF at all? it makes no sense!!
Last edited by mzoomora; 03-08-2007 at 05:40 PM.
03-08-2007, 05:53 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by mzoomora
chances are the smaller lift cam would have plenty of clearance.
I feel the same way lol 
03-08-2007, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bshonda
see, this is what i hear right after someone says lift has nothing to do with PTV clearance....lol
03-08-2007, 10:23 PM
#78
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Guys, you can insult me as much as you want. I myself for exemple don't call a shop to ask if it fits, I measure. That is the difference between your "wisdom" and mine.
As i said, it is your motors, not mine.
Ask TSP what is the clearance margin on intake and exhaust. If it is at or more than .080 intake or .100 exhaust, I will eat my cap (with a bit of Ketchup).
And just so you know what to ask just say :
" Mr. Zack, please tell me what are the PTV clearance margins on a MS4 with a 110 LSA"
So just so you guys understand what I'm saying. MS4 on a 110 LSA is very tight on PTV and danger of contact is imminent. Install at your own risk.
Oh and LIFT has no (as in negligeable) effect on PTV at the size of cams we run in our LSX motors.
and tuffass, you are judging me after posting in this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/671672-installing-cam-dot-dot.html
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing
I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously.
As i said, it is your motors, not mine.
Ask TSP what is the clearance margin on intake and exhaust. If it is at or more than .080 intake or .100 exhaust, I will eat my cap (with a bit of Ketchup).
And just so you know what to ask just say :
" Mr. Zack, please tell me what are the PTV clearance margins on a MS4 with a 110 LSA"
So just so you guys understand what I'm saying. MS4 on a 110 LSA is very tight on PTV and danger of contact is imminent. Install at your own risk.
Oh and LIFT has no (as in negligeable) effect on PTV at the size of cams we run in our LSX motors.
and tuffass, you are judging me after posting in this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/671672-installing-cam-dot-dot.html
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing
I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously. Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; 03-09-2007 at 07:53 AM.
03-09-2007, 03:34 AM
#79
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Well since I didn’t get any replies and been watching this thread still.
You guys seriously, who or what business is going to post every possible outcome or combo.
Second, why would they post up problems when all it would do is turn away potential buyers.
There are several threads with good and bad on several shops.
This isn’t TSP bashing, I'm just providing facts. Facts that these members asked for.
Here are Several Threads that WERE NOT POSTED ON TSP's SITE! With KNOWN ISSUES. From fake flow numbers, to a MS3 lobe breaking, to a "Bad Batch" of heads/ milling heads so low to gain better flow.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ight=Broke+MS3
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=TSP+LS6
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/351379-if-you-bought-prc-heads-considering-check-out.html
I have pics of the heads breaking in places you wouldnt believe.
Some members other members who’s cars were destroyed because of this.
Joe - T56rebuilds.com Sponsor
2 different Moderators
Several members - use the search
TSP did make good and helping out these members in some if not all cases. You guys can read some of the threads listed and make up your own mind.
Honestly thou I don’t read or hear about many cams breaking at the lobe, or bad batches of heads. Fake flow numbers actually comes up more often to none cause it pulls in people in belief of getting those flow numbers for their cars. TSP has their good customers with lots of happy people. These are some of the bad that have been known and people dont or didnt know about. Im sure there are plenty of people that can voche for the guys up at TSP.
Hope my copy of the TPS report helps you guys out to shead some light in some areas.
Better to be safe then to be sorry, always be safe.
KrisXpc: Your car sounds awsome, serious take care and I wish ya the best.
Edit: Seeing how I also needed information about the cam. And several replies about not advising the 110 lsa comments in this thread. I sent pms to each person and asked why. NOT 1 response from anyone as to why. Seeing how they were told no, I would normally tend to ask why. I too called TSP 5 times today and got nothing but a busy signal. Ill try again tomorrow and get a definite answer.
Lol you guys are great. One guy that says no, one guy that says yes. And you believe the yes cause you wish to believe it. Wish it was that simple, and it doesnt make it so.
Heres what I do know, with their 5.3 heads they recommend fly cutting the pistons with their ms4 cams on any lsa. With their LS6 heads the cc is smaller then the LS1 heads. 67cc vs 64.5cc hence the p.rod length/gasket/ heads matter. More factors come into play then just saying what will and wont work. So in short without you guys saying why, these are worthless replies.
No its not. A member provided you with a link. There is a reason why its not listed.
Answer this in the first part of the post.
-N
You guys seriously, who or what business is going to post every possible outcome or combo.
Second, why would they post up problems when all it would do is turn away potential buyers.
There are several threads with good and bad on several shops.
This isn’t TSP bashing, I'm just providing facts. Facts that these members asked for.
Here are Several Threads that WERE NOT POSTED ON TSP's SITE! With KNOWN ISSUES. From fake flow numbers, to a MS3 lobe breaking, to a "Bad Batch" of heads/ milling heads so low to gain better flow.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ight=Broke+MS3
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=TSP+LS6
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/351379-if-you-bought-prc-heads-considering-check-out.html
I have pics of the heads breaking in places you wouldnt believe.
Some members other members who’s cars were destroyed because of this.
Joe - T56rebuilds.com Sponsor
2 different Moderators
Several members - use the search
TSP did make good and helping out these members in some if not all cases. You guys can read some of the threads listed and make up your own mind.
Honestly thou I don’t read or hear about many cams breaking at the lobe, or bad batches of heads. Fake flow numbers actually comes up more often to none cause it pulls in people in belief of getting those flow numbers for their cars. TSP has their good customers with lots of happy people. These are some of the bad that have been known and people dont or didnt know about. Im sure there are plenty of people that can voche for the guys up at TSP.
Hope my copy of the TPS report helps you guys out to shead some light in some areas.
Better to be safe then to be sorry, always be safe.
KrisXpc: Your car sounds awsome, serious take care and I wish ya the best.
Edit: Seeing how I also needed information about the cam. And several replies about not advising the 110 lsa comments in this thread. I sent pms to each person and asked why. NOT 1 response from anyone as to why. Seeing how they were told no, I would normally tend to ask why. I too called TSP 5 times today and got nothing but a busy signal. Ill try again tomorrow and get a definite answer.
Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
Just so you know I called TSP and i have the same set-up and they say it will work fine as its less than .005 difference between the MS4 on a 110LSA and A 111 LSA so quite feeding us full of **** unless you have actually talked to TSP like I have.
Originally Posted by dazman
i begged tsp to let me get the 110 but they would not let me (advised against it).... LOL... said it would not work on my setup
ms4
prc stage 1 ls6
ms4
prc stage 1 ls6
Heres what I do know, with their 5.3 heads they recommend fly cutting the pistons with their ms4 cams on any lsa. With their LS6 heads the cc is smaller then the LS1 heads. 67cc vs 64.5cc hence the p.rod length/gasket/ heads matter. More factors come into play then just saying what will and wont work. So in short without you guys saying why, these are worthless replies.
Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
you better search thery're site cus the 110 LSA is right on there.
Originally Posted by KrisXpc
I'm still curious as to why TSP says nothing about this on the site..
-N
Last edited by XxNaSDaQxX; 03-09-2007 at 01:17 PM.
03-09-2007, 10:51 AM
#80
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Guys, you can insult me as much as you want. I myself for exemple don't call a shop to ask if it fits, I measure. That is the difference between your "wisdom" and mine.
As i said, it is your motors, not mine.
Ask TSP what is the clearance margin on intake and exhaust. If it is at or more than .080 intake or .100 exhaust, I will eat my cap (with a bit of Ketchup).
And just so you know what to ask just say :
" Mr. Zack, please tell me what are the PTV clearance margins on a MS4 with a 110 LSA"
So just so you guys understand what I'm saying. MS4 on a 110 LSA is very tight on PTV and danger of contact is imminent. Install at your own risk.
Oh and LIFT has no (as in negligeable) effect on PTV at the size of cams we run in our LSX motors.
and tuffass, you are judging me after posting in this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671672
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously.
As i said, it is your motors, not mine.
Ask TSP what is the clearance margin on intake and exhaust. If it is at or more than .080 intake or .100 exhaust, I will eat my cap (with a bit of Ketchup).
And just so you know what to ask just say :
" Mr. Zack, please tell me what are the PTV clearance margins on a MS4 with a 110 LSA"
So just so you guys understand what I'm saying. MS4 on a 110 LSA is very tight on PTV and danger of contact is imminent. Install at your own risk.
Oh and LIFT has no (as in negligeable) effect on PTV at the size of cams we run in our LSX motors.
and tuffass, you are judging me after posting in this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671672
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing
I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously.I agree its anoying to be insulted for knowledge your putting out, But calling tufass out wasn't really needed man.
We all had to learn at some point in time.. for most of us budget builders the only way we can learn is to ask.
Im still giving TSP a chance here to get in touch with me. Ive heard nothing but top notch customer service. We all get a little busy.
Either way. I Want to see TSP put this to rest. Even if its going to sting..
Last edited by KrisXpc; 03-09-2007 at 10:59 AM.