Fireball

iTrader: (21)

These gapless rings are getting on my nerves...they are causing excessive oil to get by the valveguides and they are really pissing me off.

Where can I get a GOOD set of conventional rings for a stock bore 346? I'm running OEM pistons

TIA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

mikey

iTrader: (6)

Brian, something is not right. I have gapless rings and so does one of your racing buds from MD. We don't see this problem. It may be an issue with the seals. Try a teflon valve seal. I have these if you need them.

Mikey

Fireball

iTrader: (21)

Well they are worth a shot I guess before a full teardown,

I know its coming from the valve seals/guides....I've pulled the intake 2 times and oil is sitting on the intake valves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> (a teaspoon's worth). Reversion is causing it to cover the whole intake port. Intake itself is pretty much dry (some film but no oil pooling)
smokes only while idling. doesn't seem to do it at part throttle or at WOT (verified this on the dyno when people were watching it)

I'll catch up with you after OC and I'll get a set from you and try them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Fireball ]</small>

AP-Engineering

Fireball - We have rings if you need them. I would check your seals first. I don't think that it is a ring issue.

Thanks,
Chris Gelineau
Diamod Pistons
877-552-2112 toll free

CHRISPY

Their have been other cases of this with GTP S2 heads. All you might need is a new seal and you should be good to go.

Maybe a slightly weak seal with all the vacuum you are pulling with those gapless rings is making the problem worse? Is it on all the valves or just one or two?
Chris

Fireball

iTrader: (21)

pretty much all valves are doing it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> but seals first ...then I'll consider a full teardown <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

JS

iTrader: (4)

Mikey is correct,its could be the seals.But gapless are over-rated and will NOT produce more power than a file fit,Plus as time goes on they tend to cause oiling issues.

I'd run a good file fitted from Speed Pro with your setup if u do go to a different ring..

JS

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: JS ]</small>

SJH

Well I ran those rings and had the same exact problem!
Oil sitting on the valve.Strangest thing I ever saw.
I replaced ALL the seals and it did not do a damn thing to help.
I pulled the motor because of it.
The gapless rings require a VERY tight valve guide clearance and do suffer from some odd issues.

Don't like them and would never use them again.
Steve

JimmyKash

There was a good post on these rings a while on cz28.com and the rings work for a while and then start to produce different issues with sealing and oil getting to strange places.

I *think* i evened warned SJH about it a while back when i noticed he was using them in his motor and he responded once about them working very good for a while, then after some miles again they started to have issues.

I've heard this from quite a few people.
i run speed-pro plasma moly rings

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

I also had the EXACT same problem as Fireball with a very similar setup. Only difference being a smaller cam. This was a fresh shortblock. Valve seals were swapped out when the new motor was built. GTP uses a factory valve guide even on it's stage 2 heads with larger valves. Almost all of the other sponsors use a bronze guide. Oil was just pooling on my intake valves. smoked like crazy. I had the same rings as fireball. I think it is/was a combination of the two things mentioned here. I don't beleive it has anything to do with valve seals. The zero gap rings have caused some issues for many people in these cars. I've heard of others having issues with GTP's valve guides as well. GTP denies ANY responsibilty and has no interest in helping me with this. I'm not willing to put up with more smoking issues so I am having bronze guides put in my gtp stage 2's b4 i put them on this stock shortblock with stock rings i have now. I give up finding the exact cause of the problem, but should not have any further trouble.

SJH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I *think* i evened warned SJH about it a while back when i noticed he was using them in his motor and he responded once about them working very good for a while, then after some miles again they started to have issues</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yep, I got all sorts of warnings from people but I was hard headed and wanted to try them.At first I liked them then the oil control problems started.
The gapless 2nd ring also totally contradicts present 2nd ring gapping theory.
Anyhow, I now run conventional rings. .026" top and .028 2nd(supercharged).
No oil control issues at all, same intake manifold vacuum as I had with the gapless rings and no blowby issues either.
It was a learning experience.
Steve

TJF

Fireball:

'JS' and 'Mikey' are right on with they're call. Dump the gapless rings, get the Teflon PC seals installed and have your machinist check your valve stem to guide oil clearances. If they are too wide replace them with stock GM or similar iron guides. There's no need IMO to run a bronze guide in a street car. They wear faster and pull alot more oil when when the engine is cold. Also if you've machined your heads it might be wise to have your intake manifold angle milled for a closer port match. You may have a weak, poorly sealing intake gasket causing the oil puddling.

W8N2SQZ

iTrader: (6)

Hey Brian,

Here is my two cents. I was talking with you before on this matter. I was having the same oil on the valve problem. My whole motor was rebuilt with stock crank, after market rods and JE pistons and JE rings. When I would pull the intake off oil would be sitting on the valve like you said. One of my worst was the number two cylinder. Now remember that I had new bronze guides and seal put on. I started to blame this broblem on the rings cuz I was killing plugs every three weeks.

So I did a test. I bought some Viton guide seals and just replaced the seals on the number two cylinder first to see if that was the problem. I ran the car for three weeks just like the other seals and my plugs were PERFECT. My engine builders also said he rebuilt a truck motor that had the same problem and he changed out the new seals with viton seals and the truck runs great.

These motors pull a ton of vaccum and it goes right by the guide, but the VITON seals I put on work. Try them, you won't be let down. I also talked to total seal back when my motor was being built and they said due to the design of their ring, the motors pull even more vaccum then normal rings. I have pictures of my old seals and the what the plugs look like before and after.

Something else to think about is I have bronze guides and if the do let more oil by, they also must let more vaccum by so the first set of new seal I put on couldn't cut it and the Viton seals can.

Let me know how it goes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Glenn

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

I was using brand new viton seals with mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

W8N2SQZ

iTrader: (6)

4mulajoe,

Wow, that is wierd. They cured it for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Oh well hopefully you get it figured out Brain.

Good luck,

Glenn

JimmyKash

i'm 99.9% sure that JE rings are just re-labeled and hiked up price Sealed Power rings...thats what i've been told

BADZ

iTrader: (5)

Sealed power rings is what I went with and yes they are pricey but you get what you pay for!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

W8N2SQZ

iTrader: (6)

I wouldn'd doubt that for a minute. Lots of stuff comes from them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Glenn

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

I know. GTP had just R&R'd them(charged me $80) and said they were fine even though they needed new seals after only 4 months with barely any racing.

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: 4mulaJoe ]</small>

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

ok so where do we get these viton seals from?

i'll try that myself before upending the longblock... are never even told me what rings i have, just that they have 50% more gap than stock and would definitely use more oil than a stock ring set.