SS3933

I've kept telling myself I should at least wait until the warranty runs out but I'm running out of things to do. The engine in my 2001 M6 SS is pretty much stock except for an airlid, Holley powershot and Corsa exhaust with 11K. I've been considering Forced Induction (S/C) as well but from what I've read Hds/Cam sounds like it would be a slightly safer alternative.
Here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for rwhp in the 400+ range. More importantly than that, I would like to be able to hop in the car and drive it on a 3-6 hour trip and not worry anymore about dependability anymore than I do now. I also understand I will probably need a 12 bolt, clutch, possibly pcm tuning and headers. I like quality and I don't mind paying for it but I'm not rich either. I like the tourqe curve of the LS1 and would just like to increase it throughout the rpm range if possible +/-. I would like to be able to hear the cam but I don't want it to attract a whole lot of attention either. I want the power but in a conservative way much like "Found the ultimate old man cam" described in one of the earlier posts. That post sounds like me but I don't have his heads. A legal car is appreciated but not completely necessary. I can do a cam only for now but I WILL eventually do heads as well if I don't do it all in one shot. I'm just looking for the ideal package based on what I've described above. Now, if anyone can give me that ideal setup with CAM specs that would be great. I know this is long and demanding but since I don't know EVERYTHING I would love the advice and opinions from this board. Thanks!

<img src="http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3556096/1027560596825_Corsa4Signature_2.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ November 16, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: SS3933 ]</small>

TXCAMSS

iTrader: (60)

Sounds like you need the C1 Hammer cam. It works great with stock heads and very streetable. The only difference between our set ups would be M6 vs A4. You will needs good LT headers to get all the benifits out of a H/C car. I dyno'd out at 408/387 .Check out the sig. THis set up was copied from John Raughhammer and it is proven powerful and reliable. I look for efficiency more so than peak horsepower. The ETs show how efficient the combination is , especially on a 3500# daily driver. I hope this helps. Check out Raughhammers site for some excellent cam info. Good luck!

James

Nasty N8

iTrader: (33)

That is a good looking car. What you are asking of the car is not unreasonable, it sounds like you know what you want. And thats good. We have excellant packages that could get you there easy. Our shop WS6 has been running 416hp for 2 years and about20000 miles w/ only a bad valve spring (comp941) and as you mentioned blown 10 bolt. Other than that flawless. Any good shop should be able to get you what you want, just be sure you get good matched components and tuning.

Nate

SS3933

Thanks guys I'm glad to know I'm within a reasonable ballpark. Do you have any ideas on what the specs for such a cam would be? I've been to different sites and seen the lift, durations, LSA's and I'm beginning to understand a little of what these measurements mean. However, if you know what specs a cam should be around to deliver what I'm looking for and list them that would be a big help. That's where I'm concerned, heads you just basically look at the flow rates and that sounds pretty straight forward... I hope. I'm figuring if I first get the specs on the cam where I need them I'll just do it as a package so I get products hopefully designed to compliment each other. Thanks again!

TXCAMSS

iTrader: (60)

The specs on the C1 Hammer cam are .222/.566 on 112 LC. It's a Comp cam grind from MTI. There is a lot of info here http://xs-fx.com/raughammer/. You may choose to go bigger , but I am happy keeping the power under 6500 rpm. Your 6 speed may benefit from a bit bigger or different cam. My heads flow a good bit more than my cam needs , but based on the ETs , it is efficient. Good luck and very nice car you got there.My car is identical except I have the silver 35th checkered stripes.

James

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SS3933:
<strong>I picked out one of the specs that I thought would meet this criteria and came up with .224/.224, .581/.581, and 112 to be a bigger cam. Conversely a .221/.221, .558/.558, 114 would be a milder cam than you have and would/should pass emmissions easier.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Comp Cams 224/224 duration .581/.581 lift cam can have either 112 or 114 LSA. Your choice, it can also be had with other LSA's. The B1 or the the 221/221 .558/.558 cam on a 114 will idle about the same as the bigger Comp Cam 224/224 XE-R will.

Your probably asking how can that be? The answer is the XE-R has much faster ramp rates and this improves the idle.

Advertised duration at 0 for the Comp Cams 224/224 XE-R is 271 which isn't that big.

Advertised duration at 0 for the B1 is 281.

At .050 lift the 224/224 XE-R has more duration due to the very fast ramps. The B1 only has 221 duration at .050

The duration at 0 has a very big influence on who well a cam idles.

The B1 & T1 are excellent cams they've been the cams all other cams were judged by for years but the new grind allow for other choices.

The faster XE-R ramp is harder on springs so I'd get dual springs for sure on with an XE-R or other fast ramp cam but I'd want dual springs with any aftermarket cam.

Brownie

Two things you should think about:

Since reliability is high on your list,

1) Valve springs - double springs are your only real choice. The the hammer cam, comp xe-r, and TR cams all have aggressive ramp rates that are hard on valve springs. OR a less aggressive lift rate cam and maybe higher duration (but you will give up some drivability).

2) Rod bolts - the h/c cars like to rev and routinely spinning to 6500+ is a strain on those stock rod bolts. Some survive and some don't.

When I say this, there are cars running great out there with neither of these choices, but if reliability is important then erring on the side of caution is best.

Best of luck with your choice.

Mike

Brownie

99 Black Bird T/A,

Your post wasn't in my browser as I was replying to this post.

Nice post! Makes mine seem redundant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

TXCAMSS

iTrader: (60)

These guys are right on the money and offer some valuable cam info. As far as the C1 Hammer cam question goes, I don't wind my car up past 6500 because its power band is a little lower than the others recommended. It starts pulling earlier , pulls like a monster and reaches its power band peak at appx 6400-6600 rpm (based on the dyno). All after market cams determine the potential of the cars performance. The stock redline is based on the stock cams specs and power band. The stock cam peters out much earlier than the X grind and 114 LC cams. The bottom end is the weaker link when determining how high to turn the motor. I like to be conservative. The C1 Hammer cam 112 LC does not have ramps as steep as the XE-R cams so it starts in earlier and finishes its power earlier than those. Therefore the XE-R / 114 LC cams need to be turned a bit higher to achieve the full potential that they are capable of. Again , I stayed on the conservative side and could definitely gain a good bit from one of these other cams and may in the future. One of these XR-E cams would compliment my heads even more. They are also right about the double valve springs. Many people are running the single springs like the 918s , but I have experienced the broken spring syndrome (defective spring) and it's not fun. The 114 LC cams will also have a bit better idle qualities than the 112 , but mine is an A4 and I have no complaints. The M6 cars are even less sensitive to these idling issues. I was targeting max power with stock heads and S2 ported heads while still maintaining engine longevity. With these heads and a more aggressive XR-E cam , I would probably already be in the 10s , but there is a price to pay and I can probably do it with a bit bigger converter if I can't do it with my ST3500. I haven't given up yet. Good luck on your choice and results. You are doing the right thing by researching so you will be pleased I'm sure.

James

SS3933

Wow, got a lot of info to digest! Okay, as states above by Blackbird

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At .050 lift the 224/224 XE-R has more duration due to the very fast ramps. The B1 only has 221 duration at .050

The duration at 0 has a very big influence on who well a cam idles.

The B1 & T1 are excellent cams they've been the cams all other cams were judged by for years but the new grind allow for other choices.

The faster XE-R ramp is harder on springs so I'd get dual springs for sure on with an XE-R or other fast ramp cam but I'd want dual springs with any aftermarket cam. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From this statement I would assume that the XE-R cam would provide a little more power later on and end higher up but almost require the double springs as oppposed to a B-1 cam but I'm better off going with double springs with either choice. And this is becuase of the, ramp rate? When I think of ramp rate I'm thinking of how a turbo would show it's power curve on a dyno. Starts off weak and grows substantially stronger towards the end of the rpm spectrum. Is this the same thing only that the XE-R will extend the rpm spectrum while a B-1 would start it's power earlier and finish earlier than an XE-R?
This is all great stuff and I'm learning a LOT real quick. It's still sounding like the C1 Hammer Cam is the kind of specs I'm looking for but there's fine line there if I can obtain similar idle qualities and dependability with an XE-R. I'm probably partial to just getting a package deal with the springs and all. I believe I've seen that on MTI's and probably some other sites.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

SS3933,

I like to select heads first and match the cam to them. However, for your application the Hammer cam would be a good cam. Also the TR-220 & TR-224 will be worth looking at. Personally, I like the 220 to 224 sized XE-R grinds by Comp Cams. Long tube headers are always a big plus with a heads and cam car.

If you go with shorty headers or stock manifolds, for emissions reasons, I'd suggest a cam with more exhaust duration. Maybe something between 212/218 to 216/220 with fast ramps. Better aftermarket cats and bigger Y pipe might help a little too, but the Long Tubes will be best if you can do that.

SS3933

Thanks TX, that is a very helpful site. One question though, you say you like keeping the power under 6500. When you change the cam are you also (depending on the specs of the cam) altering the rev potential of your engine? And if so, is it the cam that makes this potential safe? In other words, the stock redline for the LS1 begins @ 5600rpm. Since you've changed your cam to the specs you now have, is it safe to take your car to 6500rpm?
Sorry, one last question. You say I may benefit from a bigger or different cam since I have an M6. Correct me if I'm wrong but bigger would mean a higher duration & lift and a lower LSA? I picked out one of the specs that I thought would meet this criteria and came up with .224/.224, .581/.581, and 112 to be a bigger cam. Conversely a .221/.221, .558/.558, 114 would be a milder cam than you have and would/should pass emmissions easier.
I greatly appreciate all your help! When I actually go in to have this done it will help me out to have an idea of how to translate what I want into numbers that hopefully make sense. I'm thinking right now I will probably stay with the specs you have on your cam because your specs are beginning to sound like what I'm looking for.
Thanks again

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SS3933:
[QB]I would assume that the XE-R cam would provide a little more power later on and end higher up but almost require the double springs as oppposed to a B-1 cam but I'm better off going with double springs with either choice. And this is becuase of the, ramp rate? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ramp rate is a factor and so is lift.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
When I think of ramp rate I'm thinking of how a turbo would show it's power curve on a dyno. Starts off weak and grows substantially stronger towards the end of the rpm spectrum. Is this the same thing only that the XE-R will extend the rpm spectrum while a B-1 would start it's power earlier and finish earlier than an XE-R? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not exactly the same. I think of fast ramps/ramp rate with a cam as being how fast the cam snaps the valve open. It's more like a measure of how quick the valve is opened and closed. The duration and LSA have more effect on where the cam makes it's power. Bigger durations tend to make power higher. Higher LSA's tend to move the power band up.

The B1 221/221 with fast ramps on a 114 LSA would probably have a slightly lower powerband. The porting of the heads also has an effect on this as does the amount of advance/retard the cam is dialed in with. Most cams have 4 degrees advance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
This is all great stuff and I'm learning a LOT real quick. It's still sounding like the C1 Hammer Cam is the kind of specs I'm looking for but there's fine line there if I can obtain similar idle qualities and dependability with an XE-R. I'm probably partial to just getting a package deal with the springs and all. I believe I've seen that on MTI's and probably some other sites. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would suggest dual springs for best overall reliability. The XE-R lobed cam will be harder on any spring than the C1 Hammer cam will. All XE-R cams have more lift (.581 min) and quicker ramp rates than the Hammer (.566 lift). The Hammer has XE lobes. The XE is a fast lobe actually a little faster than the lobes the older B1 & T1's that Lunati ground for MTI had. A XE-R cams will need new springs more often than a XE cam with idential conditions most likely.

The 220/220 XE-R with .581 lift and the 222/222 XE-R with .581 lift might be worth asking about.

I like the C1, Hammer, Go Fast T/A, Andy cam too as it's a well proven cam.

SS3933

I think I've got enough information to get me through the door. At least I have an idea of what specs I'm looking for now and that was my goal here. Thanks guys I appreciate all your help. If anyone wants to know how to get a 18X10.5 rim on the back of a lowered F-body without it rubbing just let me know I'll be happy to send out the info. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

beardWS6

iTrader: (1)

Check my sig for what I have. The X-1 cam is awsome. The power I have in the upper RPM range is sweet. She pulls like a mother! With all I have I dyno`d 405(N/A) rwhp with 23 degrees timing. I think I leave about 15-25 rwhp because of the timing, but I spray a 100 wet shot. This is with A4, stall, and 12-bolt. Got a buddy with same year car M6 went 445rwhp with same set up. MTI has this set-up. Also they are still tuning mine. The set up on the X-1 cam is 230 227 .591 .571 112 Works really good with there stage 2 heads. Love the set-up! Hope this helps <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

SS3933

That reminds me, When I change the rear end I was kind of leaning towards the 3.42's again. If it's cool outside especially at night traction goes south as it is. I'm sure I can get a 295/35/18 back there, heck I think I could get a 305/35/18 back there if they made such a tire. Problem is, a 295 isn't going to be that much of a difference so what are your suggestions on gears? Use the same ratio? I really wouldn't want to go lower. I guess I can just wait and see how it does before I decide on the gears.

SStolen

iTrader: (22)

Im going to put longer wheel studs on my car and throw some 315 Pirelli P-zero's in the back. Should look sweet as hell. I like the 295 just fine but I saw a guy with 295's on his 18x9.5's ZO6's all around and it didn't look bad so I know the 315's will look good a rim an inch wider.

HITMANSS

Let me chime in here with my somewhat contrarian views. Like many of us, you want it all --- high power (400+ HP) w/ stock heads, w/ no loss of driveability, reliability, or mileage, able to pass emissions, w/o programming, etc.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

High-lift fast-ramp cams are noisier, and are harder on your valvetrain. The stock LS1 head stalls out at much over .500" lift, so the aggressive profile isn't really a good fit, either. When duration gets much past 220, idle quality and emissions start to become an issue, and PCM tweaks are needed.

There is a fairly simple, time-tested approach that works --- balance your cam to your other mods. If you want 400+ reliable HP, get a decent set of Stage 1x or 2 heads, LT headers, and your cam of choice. So long as you pick a cam in the 220-224 duration range, and .550-.580 lift, you'll make plenty of power.

Yes, I know there are lots of guys running big cams with stock heads, and making decent power. But IMHO they'd make just as much power with a lower-lift cam, which would also be quieter, and more reliable.

W/ an M6, I would definitely switch to 3.73 gears. Your mileage may actually improve, and the car will be much more fun to drive on the street, and at the track.

Good luck w/ your choice.

TimZ28

Just because a port may "stall" at a certain lift value doesn't mean that having more lift than that is not beneficial. The air flow is not going to stop just because the flow #s do keep rising. The more lift the more area under the curve. Let's say your heads are at 300 CFM @ 0.550 and are only 300 CFM @ 0.600. Are you saying going past 0.550 lift is not worth anything? Well if you peak at 0.550 on your lift you will barely see 300 CFM through out the cycle... if you go to 0.590 lift you will see that flow rate for a much greater portion of the intake cycle.

There may be scenarios where a head begins to flow terribly after a certain lift but if not then take advantage of the high flow rates with more lift.

Tim

SS3933

The cam specs I've been looking at are in the 221-224 range. My intention is to do stage 2 heads and cam at the same time. I may have to wait a little longer to do it all on one shot but that's how I'd rather do it. My other option was to do a cam first then do the heads but I'm thinking it's probably cheaper to do it all in shot. I would rather it be on the "sleeper" side as far as the cam goes. Later on if I decide I want to be a little more aggressive then I'll just have to buy a more aggressive cam that will work well with the heads I've bought. From what I've read so far, it appears the C1 Hammer cam is the likely choice but I won't completely rule out an XE-R until I talk with the people doing the job.
About gears, I've read 3.73's aren't really that much different than a 3.42. Is this suggested simply because of the added torqe and probably a little easier on the clutch?