Heads/cam vs. cam only
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
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From: Virginia Beach, Va
Heads/cam vs. cam only Well, I have a set of TSP PRC stage 2.5 5.3L heads on order from Texas Speed. I am having a tough time deciding on a cam. I think after doing some research, I have decided to stay on the smaller side. My car is a daily driver, so I want something very street friendly, and I want usable power throughout the rpm range. I am purchasing their h/c package, so I am flipping a coin between the 224R and the 228R. Here's my only concern with staying small. Am I wasting my money on a set of good heads if Im not planning on buying a good size cam to allow them to flow to their potential? Ive seen some good numbers and good torque curves from 224 cam only cars. Am I going overboard in buying a set of good flowing heads, only to stay with a small 224 cam? Heres another way to put the question: Lets say I have a strong 224 cam only car. I like the power, but I want more, so i decide to throw on a set of good flowing heads. Where will I see/feel the gains? What should the power curves look like compared to one another? I hope yall understand what Im asking.
I have those heads witha TR224/112cam and a ported fast 90/90 in an A4(TCIssf3500) and put down 417rwhp 407rwt. When I just had the cam with an ls6intake i put down 350rwhp 355rwt(Not positive on the tourque but around there).So with the heads and ported fast I gained 67rwhp. I have a friend with the PRC ls6heads and the T2 with an ls6intake andhe puts down 400rwhp and tourque was around 370ish,and he is an A4 too.Hope this helps you out
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
Likes: 0
From: Virginia Beach, Va
That does help a bit. Where did u see/feel the most gains after adding the heads to that 224 cam? I know you added the 90/90 at the same time, so its probably hard for u to tell exactly what the heads did for u alone. You dont happen to have a dyno graph do you? Id like to see the torque curve of the 224 cam with those heads. Thanks for the reply buddy. Anyone else have any input?
You can never go wrong with getting a set of good flowing heads, because later on if you want to you can go with a cam to compliment the heads better, not only because its: 1, cheaper, but 2, its easier to do a cam swap than it is the heads. Don't feel shy about going with a smaller cam, with the right set of parts you can make just as much power if not more than some of the bigger cam guys-relatively speaking of course. I myself have a small high lift cam in my car with a good set of heads an i make great power for as driveable as the car is--Like i said you get the right supporting parts you can make great power out of smaller cams. hope this helps
Originally Posted by Raise
That does help a bit. Where did u see/feel the most gains after adding the heads to that 224 cam? I know you added the 90/90 at the same time, so its probably hard for u to tell exactly what the heads did for u alone. You dont happen to have a dyno graph do you? Id like to see the torque curve of the 224 cam with those heads. Thanks for the reply buddy. Anyone else have any input?
I prefer driving a 450 rwhp car that makes its power with ported high compression heads and a 224 cam, then a 450 rwhp cam-only car with a stupid 244/248 cam. If the compression ratio was raised with the ported heads, the 224 cam vehicle should make tons more torque than the cam only car too.
My old setup was a 346 with AFR 225 heads and a 223/227 110LSA cam. It made 475rwhp/429rwtq. It had torque down low like a 402.
Bottom line, try to keep your overlap at .050" around 6 degrees or less for a daily driver. Once you exceed that, you have to rely more heavily on a quality tuner (which are in short supply these days).
My old setup was a 346 with AFR 225 heads and a 223/227 110LSA cam. It made 475rwhp/429rwtq. It had torque down low like a 402.
Bottom line, try to keep your overlap at .050" around 6 degrees or less for a daily driver. Once you exceed that, you have to rely more heavily on a quality tuner (which are in short supply these days).
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
I got a 232/236 with a good set of heads and it makes nice power down low for a DD, 385 ft lbs @ 3500. The bigger the cam, the more compression you are giving up, which decreases that drivability.
I personally am not a fan of cam only cars, IMO ya gotta do heads/cam together to get it right.
I personally am not a fan of cam only cars, IMO ya gotta do heads/cam together to get it right.
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Verdad Gallardo The important thing is the overlap. For a pure street car it would be better to keep it under 6 degrees at .050". Here are some examples of 6 degrees of overlap.
224/228 110LSA
228/228 111LSA
228/232 112LSA
230/230 112LSA
230/234 113LSA
232/232 113LSA
Pick something in the middle and you'll be happiest.
224/228 110LSA
228/228 111LSA
228/232 112LSA
230/230 112LSA
230/234 113LSA
232/232 113LSA
Pick something in the middle and you'll be happiest.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
yeah overlap is the biggest part of whether or not its driveable. Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
Likes: 0
From: Virginia Beach, Va
well those cam choices look good, right about where i want to be. the only thing is, im getting texas speeds h/c package and they dont have any of those grinds. can yall suggest a texas speed cam that follows the specs of these cams suggested by patrick g? thanks a lot for the help fellas. Ive done a lot of research, but I need to decide today so my order will ship
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
Likes: 0
From: Virginia Beach, Va
actually they do have the 228r, which is 228/228 .588/.588 with choice of lsa. i guess i could have that cut on a 111 lsa like patrick suggested. i know they probably have some 228r cams on the shelf ready to ship, but they are probably 112 lsa and 114 lsa. would the 228r cam on a 112 lsa be right for me? i hope patrick can chime back in. thaks fellas
As I mentioned in the PM, a 228R with a 111LSA +2 would be ideal for your mods, but if TSP has 112LSA cams on the shelf, they should work fine. Just keep in mind, to keep the same intake valve closing point as a 111LSA +2 cam, the 112LSA cam would need to be ground +3. But I digress...one degree here or there is not going to make too much difference...just don't buy a 228/228 112LSA cam with no advance. Your dynamic compression and mid-range torque will take too big of a hit.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
Likes: 0
From: Virginia Beach, Va
Thanks Patrick. Well, good news fellas. The heads are done and the whole package will be shipping out today!! I went with the 228r on a 112 lsa. I am so excited...I cant wait to put these things on. I already have my car torn down to the block waiting for the heads and cam. Id like to thank everyone for their input and ill see ya on the board. Later 
Banned
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 265
Likes: 1
From: pittsburgh,pa
Originally Posted by Patrick G
The important thing is the overlap. For a pure street car it would be better to keep it under 6 degrees at .050". Here are some examples of 6 degrees of overlap.
224/228 110LSA
228/228 111LSA
228/232 112LSA
230/230 112LSA
230/234 113LSA
232/232 113LSA
Pick something in the middle and you'll be happiest.
224/228 110LSA
228/228 111LSA
228/232 112LSA
230/230 112LSA
230/234 113LSA
232/232 113LSA
Pick something in the middle and you'll be happiest.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,152
Likes: 0
From: Virginia Beach, Va
Originally Posted by silverlt1ss
i have a 114+4 with ported 5.3 heads and i was wondering if the lsa on my cam was actually hurting me. sorry to but in on your thread raise
Originally Posted by silverlt1ss
i have a 114+4 with ported 5.3 heads and i was wondering if the lsa on my cam was actually hurting me. sorry to but in on your thread raise
Take your 114 +4.
While this will put your intake centerline at 110 (which is good), it also opens your exhaust valve 6 degrees earlier than a 111LSA +1 cam. You will often pick up torque by keeping the exhaust valve closed that extra 6 degrees because you stay on the power stroke that much longer.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
This is interesting since I just completed my H/C swap. After talkin with Bo White & PREDATORZ, I ended up goin with a set of port/polished & milled .018" 5.3L heads, Thunder 7.4 pushrods, stock rockers & 224/.581 114 cam.
It idle perfect @ 900 RPM like stock & has zero surge under 1000 RPM in 1st gear pullin out of my driveway. I never expected it to be this smooth of a combo. There is no valvetrain noise so far & my gas milage is exactly the same from what I can tell. And I don't even have a tune on it yet. I can't wait to hit the dyno after I get this LS1 intake swapped out. I got a port/polished Lingenfelter, but the fittings were wrong so it had to come back off for now.
It idle perfect @ 900 RPM like stock & has zero surge under 1000 RPM in 1st gear pullin out of my driveway. I never expected it to be this smooth of a combo. There is no valvetrain noise so far & my gas milage is exactly the same from what I can tell. And I don't even have a tune on it yet. I can't wait to hit the dyno after I get this LS1 intake swapped out. I got a port/polished Lingenfelter, but the fittings were wrong so it had to come back off for now.