spring seats breaking
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
spring seats breaking What would cause this ??? It has happened me on a couple of occasions now. The first one I spotted was worse than this though...so obviously like it longer ?
Once, Id have put down to a freak incident. But now 2 of them ? Whats going on ? Both times were on intake valves.
Springs are apparently Patriot Golds. Seat pressure is wrong, I can say that for sure, although Im trying to sort this now.
Given I tried contacting a few vendors here, and nobody actually seemed to want to sell me shims, or springs, or anything really to sort the seat pressure problem, and I do need it sorted urgently.
Ive had to resort to making some DIY shims, which will rest under the spring seat.
Why is it so difficult to buy stuff from some vendors ???? It baffles me. I say sell me springs, retainers, whatever, I dont care, just sell me the bits to correct my problem asap, and nobody even offers a solution.
Once, Id have put down to a freak incident. But now 2 of them ? Whats going on ? Both times were on intake valves.
Springs are apparently Patriot Golds. Seat pressure is wrong, I can say that for sure, although Im trying to sort this now.
Given I tried contacting a few vendors here, and nobody actually seemed to want to sell me shims, or springs, or anything really to sort the seat pressure problem, and I do need it sorted urgently.
Ive had to resort to making some DIY shims, which will rest under the spring seat.
Why is it so difficult to buy stuff from some vendors ???? It baffles me. I say sell me springs, retainers, whatever, I dont care, just sell me the bits to correct my problem asap, and nobody even offers a solution.
Launching!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: NC
Bad spring dynamics. Your valvetrain isn't happy. Set your springs up correctly and you should be fine.
It doesn't matter how good the parts are. If you don'tcorrect your install heights you're going to break morestuff.
With your springs install height .100" off, you only have about 100 lbs on the seat when you're supposed to have 140ish.
It doesn't matter how good the parts are. If you don'tcorrect your install heights you're going to break morestuff.
With your springs install height .100" off, you only have about 100 lbs on the seat when you're supposed to have 140ish.
Last edited by Yeahdoug; Oct 19, 2007 at 06:35 PM.
How does the seat fit around the guide. Snug or sloppy. I think there are 2 different size spring seats (holes in center) available from Patriot depending of the size of the guide.
You can buy shims that go under the seats. They are Comp part numbers and come in 0.015, 0.030 and 0.060" or you can get a complete set with 16 of each thickness. The shims should be hardened, I wouldn't make them your self.
I agree, looks like you have severe spring dynamics issues, what is your setup?
I agree, looks like you have severe spring dynamics issues, what is your setup?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Head is as supplied Jan last year, and has done maybe 10-11k since. Its a CNC'd Edelbrock, with Patriot golds, Ti retainers etc. 0.581/0.591 cam, so nothing too mental.
Spring seat as pictured, is a very snug fit around the guide.
Installed height as I measured them, on about 3-4 valves anyway, is 1.86-1.87". I see no reason to believe the rest will be different. Worst case would be 1.89"
Ive been waiting on shims for about 2 weeks, only to be told on wednesday, they havent even been sent out yet
But as I said, I have also tried to buy parts from others.....as I wanted to be sure Id have something on its way to me for this weekend.!!! which hasnt happened 
So, as the picture shows, I have resorted to desperate measures, as one way or another, Im going racing next weekend, and my car will be running again this weekend.
I made them from 80thou thick Aluminum sheet... Now you say the shims need to be hardened. I ask why ?
The cylinder head is aluminum, and I will still be using the spring seat you see above ( except a new one....thankfully I got spares when I discovered the first one a few weeks ago )
So Im hoping placing my DIY Alu shims underneath the seat, wont cause any issues. A previous head I had, looked as if the shims and seat were made from copper !...by colour only. I didnt test it for hardness though.
Spring seat as pictured, is a very snug fit around the guide.
Installed height as I measured them, on about 3-4 valves anyway, is 1.86-1.87". I see no reason to believe the rest will be different. Worst case would be 1.89"
Ive been waiting on shims for about 2 weeks, only to be told on wednesday, they havent even been sent out yet
But as I said, I have also tried to buy parts from others.....as I wanted to be sure Id have something on its way to me for this weekend.!!! which hasnt happened So, as the picture shows, I have resorted to desperate measures, as one way or another, Im going racing next weekend, and my car will be running again this weekend.
I made them from 80thou thick Aluminum sheet... Now you say the shims need to be hardened. I ask why ?
The cylinder head is aluminum, and I will still be using the spring seat you see above ( except a new one....thankfully I got spares when I discovered the first one a few weeks ago )
So Im hoping placing my DIY Alu shims underneath the seat, wont cause any issues. A previous head I had, looked as if the shims and seat were made from copper !...by colour only. I didnt test it for hardness though.
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Thread Starter
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From: Norn Iron
Im supercharged, that isnt the retainer, its the spring seat. The upper rpm has always been troublesome for me. But recently it has been pathetic. It barely wants to go over 6300rpm, although it will do it if you hold it. Hitting 7000rpm is but a dream at the minute though in the likes of 3rd and 4th.
Retainers are flat.
Retainers are flat.
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Yea, those don't look like the PP Super 7 locks and retainers. You might give those a try. They eliminate all movement around the valve groove. Clamp a pair of stock keepers around a valve and see how much you can move them up and down. Then do the same thing with the Super 7s. They won't move at all.
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 126
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we are talking about the intake seats i assume? if your boosting more than the engine ve needs it put a counter shock load on the intake valves,where the comp exceeds the valve spring pressures especially at high rpm/boost loads to combat this its best to retard the timing a few degrees to allow more flow for the high rpms and less back pressure to the intakes valves at times when they try to open. why it used to rev better is because the springs could cope with demand back then,it wouldn't help if the boost got upped in the process as far as rpms are concerned,but heck it really wants to like a dog hit with a shovel,+ who could blame you.maybe the cam profile is a tad too aggressive for the amount of boost your running.higher duration,lazier profile rates
seem to promote less shock loads on the higher boosted engines.
copper shims are nice too.
seem to promote less shock loads on the higher boosted engines.
copper shims are nice too.
Last edited by oz304; Oct 19, 2007 at 08:05 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Yes, both broken spring seat incidents were on the intake valves.
As for locks and retainers. Breaking the seal to remove the collets, was a PITA. They are tight !!!!
How you guys manage this using only air to hold the valves shut, is beyond me.
I had to fill the cylinder with rope, and wind the piston up. Even then, it was a struggle on some of them.
As for locks and retainers. Breaking the seal to remove the collets, was a PITA. They are tight !!!!
How you guys manage this using only air to hold the valves shut, is beyond me.
I had to fill the cylinder with rope, and wind the piston up. Even then, it was a struggle on some of them.
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 126
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arrrghhh!
lets just say they are locked real good!
usually a sharp quick blow with a 2lb hammer to each side of the retainer usually does the trick,but in your situation its kinda unusual with them springs,boost and revs.
by the way you could be doing mid 9s you must have traction issues no?
lets just say they are locked real good!
usually a sharp quick blow with a 2lb hammer to each side of the retainer usually does the trick,but in your situation its kinda unusual with them springs,boost and revs.
by the way you could be doing mid 9s you must have traction issues no?
Check out the movies at the bottom of this page. They are courtesy of Yeahdoug.
http://www.racingsprings.com/Pictures.htm
http://www.racingsprings.com/Pictures.htm
tap the retainers few times with a small heavy headed rubber mallet (like the ones snap on sells full of BBs in the head), the valve locks will free up.
Launching!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: NC
I agree that those retainers do not look like PP.
I'd say get a spring kit from someone and start over. If the dynamics are bad enough to break your seats, there's a good chance that the springs might have taken a set.
Also give the rest of your valvetrain a look over. Take a look at your pushrods.
Head is as supplied Jan last year, and has done maybe 10-11k since. Its a CNC'd Edelbrock, with Patriot golds, Ti retainers etc. 0.581/0.591 cam, so nothing too mental.
Spring seat as pictured, is a very snug fit around the guide.
Installed height as I measured them, on about 3-4 valves anyway, is 1.86-1.87". I see no reason to believe the rest will be different. Worst case would be 1.89"
So Im hoping placing my DIY Alu shims underneath the seat, wont cause any issues. A previous head I had, looked as if the shims and seat were made from copper !...by colour only. I didnt test it for hardness though.
Spring seat as pictured, is a very snug fit around the guide.
Installed height as I measured them, on about 3-4 valves anyway, is 1.86-1.87". I see no reason to believe the rest will be different. Worst case would be 1.89"
So Im hoping placing my DIY Alu shims underneath the seat, wont cause any issues. A previous head I had, looked as if the shims and seat were made from copper !...by colour only. I didnt test it for hardness though.
As for the copper color on the shims, I believe that is just a coating on the steel shim, at least the ones I used.
Here are the part numbers if you need them. The first three sets are individual packs of 16 of one thickness, the set is 16 of each which may be more useful.
