Any 402,403, or 408 guys use this size cam with LS3 heads before?
08-12-2010, 06:22 PM
#41
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia Beach,Virginia
Posts: 2,991
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
See, just like I expected. Shawn I am not asking you to give me 100% of the cam specs, just 10% of the specs. just that 10% of knowledge will open doors for you.
As I posted earlier, if you are building it for a race team I understand keeping the specs secret, but it is not for a race team. We all know you can't call any Nascar team and get any cam specs from them. I can go to most sponsors here and get what I want from them. Tell me Shawn yes or no, could I copy the cam from you if all you gave me was duration and lift? I never asked for all the info, you just don't give any of the info.
I have followed and read all those threads Shawn and they don't tell anything. I can't bring that to nobody. I'll just keep referring people to TSP, Speed Inc, and Thunder Racing for their go fast needs.
As I posted earlier, if you are building it for a race team I understand keeping the specs secret, but it is not for a race team. We all know you can't call any Nascar team and get any cam specs from them. I can go to most sponsors here and get what I want from them. Tell me Shawn yes or no, could I copy the cam from you if all you gave me was duration and lift? I never asked for all the info, you just don't give any of the info.
I have followed and read all those threads Shawn and they don't tell anything. I can't bring that to nobody. I'll just keep referring people to TSP, Speed Inc, and Thunder Racing for their go fast needs.
08-12-2010, 07:09 PM
#43
TECH Enthusiast
Just goto Geoff at EPS, you will get a correctly spec'ed cam, and the specs are'nt a dam secret.
BTW, calling up comp and having them grind you a cam is 20 bucks more then most vendors sell theirs for..
And cam mark up is 80 bucks a cam.. at a selling cost of 400 dollars.
BTW, calling up comp and having them grind you a cam is 20 bucks more then most vendors sell theirs for..
And cam mark up is 80 bucks a cam.. at a selling cost of 400 dollars.
08-12-2010, 07:16 PM
#44
TECH Resident
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See, just like I expected. Shawn I am not asking you to give me 100% of the cam specs, just 10% of the specs. just that 10% of knowledge will open doors for you.
As I posted earlier, if you are building it for a race team I understand keeping the specs secret, but it is not for a race team. We all know you can't call any Nascar team and get any cam specs from them. I can go to most sponsors here and get what I want from them. Tell me Shawn yes or no, could I copy the cam from you if all you gave me was duration and lift? I never asked for all the info, you just don't give any of the info.
I have followed and read all those threads Shawn and they don't tell anything. I can't bring that to nobody. I'll just keep referring people to TSP, Speed Inc, and Thunder Racing for their go fast needs.
As I posted earlier, if you are building it for a race team I understand keeping the specs secret, but it is not for a race team. We all know you can't call any Nascar team and get any cam specs from them. I can go to most sponsors here and get what I want from them. Tell me Shawn yes or no, could I copy the cam from you if all you gave me was duration and lift? I never asked for all the info, you just don't give any of the info.
I have followed and read all those threads Shawn and they don't tell anything. I can't bring that to nobody. I'll just keep referring people to TSP, Speed Inc, and Thunder Racing for their go fast needs.
Because he wont give you even 10% of the info you are upset and you going to send work to other vendors
if i was Shawn i would say send them elsewhere if i had to put up with childish thoughts like that-
You have no clue whats its like to buy all the tools,software,dyno equipment,build the engines and make all the parts work and spend countless of hours on a project-
Here's food for thought-why don't you get your own cam wether its good or bad and start in no mans land like we all did before we got into this business and tell me when you learn something if you are willing to give out the info for nothing.................
08-12-2010, 07:57 PM
#45
Your object here would be to win me over and prove to me that you are the company I want to go to with and talk about to my colleagues. I might not have the money to spend with you but I have colleagues that do and there is nothing I can tell them about you. Bottom line, I need something concrete not these falsehoods of what you did or what you built and nothing to back it up. I can't show them 2xx/2xx 6xx/6xx/1xx. That doesn't fly with them. Once again I am wasting my breath and time. I dont expect the real response that is needed from this.
Don't tell me it raining and all you're doing is pissing on my head.
Don't tell me it raining and all you're doing is pissing on my head.
Try to win you over? Please....Don't flatter yourself. If published cam specs are all that matters to you, that just shows your complete lack of comprehension. All you can tell your "colleagues" is cam specs? Talk about shallow. Is that what makes a speed shop? Not multiple engine dynos, flow bench, cam doctor, CNC machinery, the most advanced simulation software money can buy. How bout having our own mechanical engineer? How bout working on engines no one else in the world is working on?
Why do you think we, or any other sponsor owe you a thing? You can take your business to anyone you want. You don't owe us a thing, and visa versa. We're sponsors here. We pay money to post here. We SELL a product, or products. We DO NOT give away things we've worked hard to figure out. Whether it's cam specs, machining processes, or tuning techniques. And yes, I do know things most of the other tuners on this board don't. Shawn knows things most of the engine builders here don't. If you don't want to do business with us, that is your perogitive. But the fact remains, we owe you nothing. You want a good cam that works, buy 5 or 6 from various sponsors and see which one works best. Go figure it out yourself.
/rant
Last edited by edcmat-l1; 08-12-2010 at 09:01 PM.
08-12-2010, 08:02 PM
#46
Just goto Geoff at EPS, you will get a correctly spec'ed cam, and the specs are'nt a dam secret.
BTW, calling up comp and having them grind you a cam is 20 bucks more then most vendors sell theirs for..
And cam mark up is 80 bucks a cam.. at a selling cost of 400 dollars.
BTW, calling up comp and having them grind you a cam is 20 bucks more then most vendors sell theirs for..
And cam mark up is 80 bucks a cam.. at a selling cost of 400 dollars.
I'm lucky to get $360
funny price for cams went up $20 2 years ago, yet the market brought the price down $20.
08-13-2010, 08:33 AM
#50
TECH Fanatic
There are potential "customers" you don't need nor want in any business because they are such a PITA. Someone once said that was the 5% rule. It seems that in providing custom camshafts that percentage might be low.
One of the problems is finding a workable "5% filter". Some folks do that more harshly (but effectively) than others. Ask me how I know.
The more knowledge a customer has, the more they realize that they don't know-it-all and listen to the expert they are paying money to. There are examples of both types in this thread.
FWIW, some folks put themselves solidly in the 5% either by posting on the net or in their first conversation with a potential supplier. That's not a bad thing, IMO.
Jon
One of the problems is finding a workable "5% filter". Some folks do that more harshly (but effectively) than others. Ask me how I know.
The more knowledge a customer has, the more they realize that they don't know-it-all and listen to the expert they are paying money to. There are examples of both types in this thread.
FWIW, some folks put themselves solidly in the 5% either by posting on the net or in their first conversation with a potential supplier. That's not a bad thing, IMO.
Jon
08-13-2010, 09:11 AM
#53
There are potential "customers" you don't need nor want in any business because they are such a PITA. Someone once said that was the 5% rule. It seems that in providing custom camshafts that percentage might be low.
One of the problems is finding a workable "5% filter". Some folks do that more harshly (but effectively) than others. Ask me how I know.
The more knowledge a customer has, the more they realize that they don't know-it-all and listen to the expert they are paying money to. There are examples of both types in this thread.
FWIW, some folks put themselves solidly in the 5% either by posting on the net or in their first conversation with a potential supplier. That's not a bad thing, IMO.
Jon
One of the problems is finding a workable "5% filter". Some folks do that more harshly (but effectively) than others. Ask me how I know.
The more knowledge a customer has, the more they realize that they don't know-it-all and listen to the expert they are paying money to. There are examples of both types in this thread.
FWIW, some folks put themselves solidly in the 5% either by posting on the net or in their first conversation with a potential supplier. That's not a bad thing, IMO.
Jon
In my business, I told several clients to go away including one that paid me over $250k/yr. Not to do lightly. Some customers just aren't worth the aggravation.
08-13-2010, 09:14 AM
#54
Try to win you over? Please....Don't flatter yourself. If published cam specs are all that matters to you, that just shows your complete lack of comprehension. All you can tell your "colleagues" is cam specs? Talk about shallow. Is that what makes a speed shop? Not multiple engine dynos, flow bench, cam doctor, CNC machinery, the most advanced simulation software money can buy. How bout having our own mechanical engineer? How bout working on engines no one else in the world is working on?
Why do you think we, or any other sponsor owe you a thing? You can take your business to anyone you want. You don't owe us a thing, and visa versa. We're sponsors here. We pay money to post here. We SELL a product, or products. We DO NOT give away things we've worked hard to figure out. Whether it's cam specs, machining processes, or tuning techniques. And yes, I do know things most of the other tuners on this board don't. Shawn knows things most of the engine builders here don't. If you don't want to do business with us, that is your perogitive. But the fact remains, we owe you nothing. You want a good cam that works, buy 5 or 6 from various sponsors and see which one works best. Go figure it out yourself.
/rant
Why do you think we, or any other sponsor owe you a thing? You can take your business to anyone you want. You don't owe us a thing, and visa versa. We're sponsors here. We pay money to post here. We SELL a product, or products. We DO NOT give away things we've worked hard to figure out. Whether it's cam specs, machining processes, or tuning techniques. And yes, I do know things most of the other tuners on this board don't. Shawn knows things most of the engine builders here don't. If you don't want to do business with us, that is your perogitive. But the fact remains, we owe you nothing. You want a good cam that works, buy 5 or 6 from various sponsors and see which one works best. Go figure it out yourself.
/rant
I know we don't owe each other a thing, but you have to give something to get something. Most businesses give first then the customer gives after but I guess in your line of business of customization you can do just the opposite, since it is working for you so far.
As far as winning me over, in the business of giving a potential customer a service, there is the high road and low road. Most businesses would have tried to win their customer over and see that as a challenge to do so to prove they have the superior product to anyone. In the beginning of this post we know which road you chose. Even through all of this I might still have an engine built from Shawn, but I will still ask, what is in it?
08-13-2010, 10:09 AM
#57
I know we don't owe each other a thing, but you have to give something to get something. Most businesses give first then the customer gives after but I guess in your line of business of customization you can do just the opposite, since it is working for you so far.
Fact is we don't have 4 or 5 cookie cutter cams that we sell to everyone regardless of cylinder head, or engine size, or NA/FI/Nitrous. We have a few that work real well in certain combinations. The rest are ALL custom cams.
PS, Hi Jon!
PPS, Josh, very sorry for the
, but I had to respond to the sillyness.
08-13-2010, 10:22 AM
#58
I'm a scientist, a chemist to be specific, so data, information, and research is important to me. When I finally decided on getting a head cam setup, I contacted VA Speed and talked to Ed for a good 3-4 hours total. I asked about what cam to go with, specifically what the specs where, and his response was, let me worry about the specs based on what you are after. So we discussed exactly what I wanted, and through the conversation, I was able to ask certain questions to get a good general idea of what he had in mind. Upon receiving the cam, I had all the specs right in front of me, not that it mattered because I'm a chemist, not an engine builder, but again, I like information and data.
I think 87Silverbullet has a slight misconception. There are two types of sponsors on this board, those that a parts suppliers, and those that make complete packages. VA Speed has demonstrated that they fall into the second category. Can you just click on their website and order, sure, but the reason they are incredibly busy is because their true niche is supplying the complete package.
In summary, if you want cam specs, call them, develop a relationship, become a customer, and work with them and they'll discuss cam specs as well as any other specs you think you need to know.
On that same token, I've done my own tuning for the past 3-4 years, but guess who I called for help with my current setup? That's right, Ed @ Vaspeed because he knows and spec'd my setup and he's been incredibly helpful. That's the difference between a parts supplier and a performance shop.
EDIT: I also have one of those 2xx/2xx 6xx 1xx cams.
I think 87Silverbullet has a slight misconception. There are two types of sponsors on this board, those that a parts suppliers, and those that make complete packages. VA Speed has demonstrated that they fall into the second category. Can you just click on their website and order, sure, but the reason they are incredibly busy is because their true niche is supplying the complete package.
In summary, if you want cam specs, call them, develop a relationship, become a customer, and work with them and they'll discuss cam specs as well as any other specs you think you need to know.
On that same token, I've done my own tuning for the past 3-4 years, but guess who I called for help with my current setup? That's right, Ed @ Vaspeed because he knows and spec'd my setup and he's been incredibly helpful. That's the difference between a parts supplier and a performance shop.
EDIT: I also have one of those 2xx/2xx 6xx 1xx cams.
Last edited by The Alchemist; 08-13-2010 at 10:37 AM.
08-13-2010, 10:37 AM
#59
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fact is we don't have 4 or 5 cookie cutter cams that we sell to everyone regardless of cylinder head, or engine size, or NA/FI/Nitrous. We have a few that work real well in certain combinations. The rest are ALL custom cams.
See, just like I expected. Shawn I am not asking you to give me 100% of the cam specs, just 10% of the specs. just that 10% of knowledge will open doors for you.
And its a business. To keep business going you dont give out your speed secrets or else everyone can do it and that means they dont need you. Top engine builders give advice but never more detail than necessary.
IF the shop is building the motor, then they can tell you the main parts in there and thats all you need to know. If you had the knowledge to do it yourself, you would have.
08-13-2010, 11:22 AM
#60
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Readsboro, VT
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've managed to find this pissing-match of a thread to wind up being much more interesting than I ever imagined. Part of this is because I'm at that cam selection phase of my engine build, and have personally struggled with whether I want to just go with somebody's "secret sauce" or make my own decision and have a cam ground to my specs.
I'm no cam expert. Most of us aren't. That said, I still think that I'm a pretty smart guy, and the same "DIY" mentality that drove me to build engines instead of buy them, also drives my need to know. Part of what makes me want to know the cam specs so bad is that I see a LOT of dissention and disagreement between the "experts" when it comes to cams for LS3-style heads. There are a couple conflicting schools of thought when it comes to making power with these motors. This voodoo secrecy makes it even more difficult to really learn anything because there are only a couple major players who are freely sharing their information. This winds up leaving me in the dark when it comes to cam selection. I can buy Company A's "mystery cam", Company B's "Mystery Cam", both of which are said to be the best, but in either case, I'm making a leap of faith instead of a well-informed decision. That's hard for me to swallow.
Why did I choose the pistons that I did? because after careful consideration, those were the specific pistons that I felt fit my needs the best.
Why did I choose the heads that i did? because after careful consideration, those were the heads that I felt fit my needs the best.
Why did I choose the cam I did? Because some guy said it's the best? Ugh. If there's one thing I've learned from all of the problems that I've had (and created) with car projects in the past, it's that when you put your trust 100% into the knowledge base of others, that all it takes is 1 idiot to screw up the entire project.
But, at the end of the day, I'll probably wind up with a cam from Company A or Company B. Why? Because what other friggin' choice do I really have?
I'm no cam expert. Most of us aren't. That said, I still think that I'm a pretty smart guy, and the same "DIY" mentality that drove me to build engines instead of buy them, also drives my need to know. Part of what makes me want to know the cam specs so bad is that I see a LOT of dissention and disagreement between the "experts" when it comes to cams for LS3-style heads. There are a couple conflicting schools of thought when it comes to making power with these motors. This voodoo secrecy makes it even more difficult to really learn anything because there are only a couple major players who are freely sharing their information. This winds up leaving me in the dark when it comes to cam selection. I can buy Company A's "mystery cam", Company B's "Mystery Cam", both of which are said to be the best, but in either case, I'm making a leap of faith instead of a well-informed decision. That's hard for me to swallow.
Why did I choose the pistons that I did? because after careful consideration, those were the specific pistons that I felt fit my needs the best.
Why did I choose the heads that i did? because after careful consideration, those were the heads that I felt fit my needs the best.
Why did I choose the cam I did? Because some guy said it's the best? Ugh. If there's one thing I've learned from all of the problems that I've had (and created) with car projects in the past, it's that when you put your trust 100% into the knowledge base of others, that all it takes is 1 idiot to screw up the entire project.
But, at the end of the day, I'll probably wind up with a cam from Company A or Company B. Why? Because what other friggin' choice do I really have?