Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

For those of you running Patriot springs on LS3/L92 heads, what installed height are you running? I measured the height last night and came up with around 1.87 or 1.88". Patriot specifies a 1.8" installed height. I just got off the phone with them and what's got me concerned is that they said that they don't recall running into that high of a height on stock heads. I'm starting to wonder why mine are the exception. Secondly, if I have to shim them up .07 or .08, could I run into interference with seating the valve seals fully?

Lastly, how close do I need to get to the 1.8" height? In looking online, I'm only seeing shims available in a .060, .030 and .015 height. I can stack a .060 and a .015 together to get a .075, but from the look of it, I can't get any more precise than that.

Oh, and does anybody know what diameter shim I should order? I can measure when I get home tonight, but that means I can't order until tomorrow, and I'd rather get the order in today so that I'll get the shims sooner.

Thanks.

AES Racing

iTrader: (6)

Just assembled a few sets with them, with just the spring base installed I would get 1.800".

I would get the most accurate measurement running a .060" shim between the micrometer and the retainer

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

If you had to run a shim between the micrometer and the retainer, how is that accurate? I'm doing this with a valve spring checker, not a micrometer. Maybe I should try a different measuring method?

AES Racing

iTrader: (6)

Its a valve spring micrometer.

how accurate? The retainer lays flat to the spring shim, all you have to do is add shim thickness + micrometer measurement.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

I did some more screwing around yesterday. First thing I did was to use my dial calipers to measure the Pro-Form valve spring height tool I was using. I made an interesting discovery. The indicated measurement on the tool is accurate to the TOP of the tool, not to the pocket where the retainer actually sits. This explains why I was measuring too tall of a height. I subtracted the difference in height (about .145"), and arrived at an installed valve spring height of 1.735". I double-checked this by expanding a nut & bolt between the seat & retainer, then measuring that with my calipers. Not what I'd call a precision measurement, but it did verify my other calculated height.

So, it looks like I went from thinking that my installed height was 75 thousands too tall, to being 65 thousands too short. Patriot specifies coil bind as being at 1.090". If I subtract that from my installed height, I get .645", which is just barely above my expected valve lift.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

so... if I have a 1.735 installed height, what can I do about it? Apparently nobody else has ever measured anything other than 1.8 on these heads, so...?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

Just got off the phone with Patriot... they agreed that my measured height isn't high enough and that I'm SOL. At least they're willing to take back the springs if Summit won't.

I guess I get to start shopping for springs... again.

3pedals

iTrader: (3)

someone must make locks that are +.050", I used a set on my old Big Block to fix the same problem you are having

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

From what I can see, the Patriots use a non-standard style lock, and they don't offer a +.050 version, nor do they offer an offset retainer.

I don't know much about locks, but I can tell for sure that the locks that came with the Patriots are nothing like the OEM locks... the Patriot locks are far larger.

cam

iTrader: (9)

Something seems off here to me. Not that Im an "expert" on LSx heads but I've measured a few sets now and they were ALL exactly 1.8" installed height from the factory. Thats 3 different LS1's, One LQ4, and one L92 and I measured every single valve.

I think I would take a caliper and double check. Maybe your valve spring checker tool is not seating right or something?

BTW Patriots use Super 7 locks. They are supposed to hang together better but they are deeper which is why you also have to use the correct valve seals or else...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

Last night for the hell of it I put a stock seat & retainer in and measured them, and I got much closer to 1.8", at least on the intake valve. I didn't measure an exhaust valve with stock parts. These Patriots simply are not installing at the same height as the stock stuff.

My valve spring micrometer is jacked up... I ruined it trying to get things to fit properly, so I do need to buy another one. But, I've measured these things a couple other ways, and no matter how I measure them, I come up short.

Last night I tried to use a set of vernier calipers but they're too big to fit down where they need to, so I cut a nail and kept grinding the nail down until I got it to fit with some slight resistance, then I measured that. It measured ~1.753" with the patriot stuff, and 1.778" with the stock stuff.

cam

iTrader: (9)

Wow thats still a LOT tighter than any I've measured. Maybe you should invest in a cutter? Its not that hard to do yourself if your careful. The ones I've seen used the valve guide for centering and you "could" use it in a hand drill but I think I'd be a lot more comfortable using at least a drill press or better yet if your friendly with a machine shop I dont think this would cost you much.

I tell you this much... These heads have been fighting you all the way eh?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

yeah, between the beating the heads took in shipping, and now the valve spring fitment, they've been a bit of a struggle... but anybody who's followed my previous builds over on thirdgen.org knows that this is really par for the course for me.

I'd really prefer not to cut the heads. I think a better solution is to get the PRC EHT springs. Their bind height is lower than the Patriots, plus I'm hoping that because they use the stock locks, that I might be able to find a set of +.050 locks.

My first step though, has to be to get accurate and repeatable height measurements, because right now, every method I use results in a different number. I also need to measure the height at all 16 valves and see where I'm at.

cam

iTrader: (9)

I have a checker but I dont really like it as each retainer is different and it doesnt always land in the same spot. What I've found works easy is using a vernier caliper and a small piece of machined true square bar stock that I hold under the retainer. Using the calipers depth measuring blade down to the seat and the base of the caliper scale to the bar stock and presto. Easy and very accurate

see link for vernier caliper details

http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/vernier3.htm

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

I'm not really following how exactly you're taking the measurement with the bar stock & calipers. I suppose I can stack up a wad of spring shims until I've got room to fit the calipers, and just measure the remaining gap and see what that gets me.

I've also been thinking about getting a telescoping gauge kit and trying that. I'm just starting to get really frustrated by my constantly changing measurements. I need to find an accurate, repeatable way of doing this.

cam

iTrader: (9)

Heres a pic with a rough idea. I do this with no valve spring installed just the retainer and spring seat. Rather than eyeball when the caliper is at the bottom of the retainer I use a small piece of square bar stock I hold tightly under the retainer and it sticks out. I then seat the bottom of the caliper on top of the bar stock and slide the depth measuring tool down to the spring seat and there ya go

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

now I understand. The only thing is, wouldn't doing this require the calipers to be tilted slightly instead of perfectly parallel with the valve stem?

cam

iTrader: (9)

You can get it pretty much dead straight if you hold them right beside the retainer on duals. On beehives its very easy to get them perpendicular to the head because the spring seat is larger dia than the retainer.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

cool. I'll give that a try tonight and see what new number I get.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (6)

Update: I used cam's method and found my measurements to be within a couple thousands of an alternate method that I used which consisted of a washer between the retainer and valve spring micrometer in order to prevent the retainer from going into the spring micrometer, and then just adding the thickness of the washer to my measured height.

Both ways gave me a number in the range of 1.750. I also felt better when I found an older thread in which a couple others indicated they measured the same heights with these springs. Springs went back to Summit and I bought some PRC EHT springs. These springs are specified as being able to work with a cam up to .675. I got a good feeling as soon as I opened the package, because the retainer was clearly a different design than the ones that come with the Patriots, and appeared that they'd install at a taller height.

I measured the installed height of one intake and one exhaust valve on each head. Of the 4 measurements, the lowest was 1.784". Subtract the 1.060 bind height and a .050 safety margin and I get .674".