V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

I'm assembling a 402 with ETP 245 heads that have the original dual springs on them. The springs have around 5000 miles of run time on them. The motor is going to be a FI motor (turbo) and will be seeing a likely max of 15 psi. I'm wondering if these springs will still be enough for a task like that. The cam I'm using is .624/.624 lift and I don't really want to be taking the motor past 6500 rpm's if I can avoid it. I'll be taking the heads in for surface cleanup next week and can have the current spring force measured.
I guess what I'm asking is, do you think they'll be ok, or if not, what spring force should be my minimum for that lift/rpm/pressure?

Thanks everyone

TurboBuick6

iTrader: (2)

What rocker arms. What springs exactly?

V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

I haven't been able to find out the exact brand of springs ETP put on the heads when they were released. A few flowbench numbers, but nothing useful on the springs. They have a red stripe on them if that helps at all. As far as rockers, I'm just planning on stock rockers with the trunion upgrade at the moment.

Slo_240sx

iTrader: (17)

I have been through this whole situation and have contacted Brian Tooley and Fraser from AES. The springs used are old Crane springs when ETP manufactured the heads. They have horrible spring pressures and will float. I have these heads on my car and at 5,400 I ran into valve float. Dynograph showed a flat and fluttering line. At 12 psi the car made around 640 with float. I called Brian Tooley for replacement springs and when they came in they were for a stock GM casting head. He accepted them back. These heads use a 1.460 diameter spring.

I heard through the grapevine that when ETP went out of business, Carey @ Forced Inductions bought the ETP line. Mast also uses a similar if not exact design and improved upon it. I then called Fraser @ AES because he made an Mast LSX spring kit for $400.. and he gave me some good insight.I now use K-Motion springs part number K-800. $100 from Summit shipped. The spring is rated for a higher installed height than what is called for on the heads so it will actually bump your spring pressure up. These are direct drop-ins thought I would still verify your installed height.

Invest in a good SHAFT MOUNT rocker system. As of right now my car is down. I use a roller rocker from a manufacturer who will stay un-named for now. The rocker actually snapped in half. Prior to, it ripped threads out of the heads because ETP helicoiled all the rocker bolts which allowed for only 1/4" of thread engagement. All of that spring pressure will rip apart your valve train if not up to par. I got ahold of Fireball (who is out of the LSx game but still gave me great advice) and he told me to call Brian Pitcher @ Comp Cams.

The 3 Shaft Mount rocker systems that will work are Jesel Part Number K2A-SP1218 $2,200 (I about **** my pants), T&D Part Number 20045 $1,170 and Comp Cam Part Number 1509 $1,030. I have all these numbers memorized with how frustrated I am about these heads. T&D is on back order for 2-3 weeks. Comp Cam discontinued 1509 but can still make them and are about 6 weeks out.

Make sure you use a good push rod as well. I use a 3/8" double tapered comp cam push rod. People have actually gained hp by upgrading to a bigger pushrod. Your length will be around 8.100.. More than 1/2" longer than a GM casting pushrod so it leaves more room for deflection in the rod. Like I said, I am so frustrated with these heads, I wish I would have gone with a shaft mount rocker from the start. I have compiled all of this info after numerous nights of research. Hope this helps Good luck!

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Can you elaborate on the roller rockers and why , other than the helicoil/reach issue, you wouldn't use single non-adjustables roller rocker setup anymore? Ive read that the GM design isn't designed to go past around 550 lift because of the shoe type contact with the valve spring. Im at .629 on my cam and am trying to figure out if I need to change up to a roller rocker setup for LS3 heads. Shaft rockers are out of the question on my income, LOL.

Slo_240sx

iTrader: (17)

Well ETP/RHS as well as a few other companies have aftermarket castings that have changed valve line geometry. The valvetrain geometry needs to be setup differently than GM castings. They machined the pedestals deeper into the head which require you to raise the rocker system. They are made specifically to use shaft mount rockers where a bar/stand is bolted across the head, and the rockers are then bolted to the shaft. This helps evenly distribute the force developed by the stiffer spring and the pushrod. So instead of one main bolt holding the rocker in place (into a helicoiled aluminum head) it is now fastened down by two bolts. These heads can also be setup to use stock rockers with the supplied stands from ETP which also have a Comp Cam PN. However, these heads were made with bronze guides and if used with stock rockers, they will wear out fast.

On a stock GM casting I would use conventional roller rockers or stock rockers. It's just that aftermarket casting and GM casting need to setup different. I used a method for a stock casting retrofitted to an aftermarket casting and now its biting me in the butt. I dished the money out for T&D roller rockers.. Ouch but it will end my rocker problems. Look in the classifieds, I remember someone selling some jesel LS3 rockers for a good price.

V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

Wow Slo, it sounds like you went through some major headaches. Did you have the rocker studs pull loose when dyno'ing your GT4788?
I don't have any data on using these heads/rockers/springs/valves with FI yet, but they did pretty good with NA runs.
Here are 2 of my dyno sheets with those heads/springs




I'm planning on using them mainly because they're paid for, and they have a nice thick deck. However, I'm NOT gonna pay more for shaft rockers than I paid for the heads or turbo lol. I just checked the pushrods I had, they're comp 8.1", around 5/16" diameter.

I appreciate all the things you told me to watch out for, that'll save 1 or 2 mistakes off the mile long list I'm about to make

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Not trying to hijak, OP, but thanks for the info 240. Im running stock heads so with the iron guides and my 629 lift, I should be OK for a good while, I hope. After I get back up from this back surgery I will look for a good set of roller tip rockers and should be good to go.

Slo_240sx

iTrader: (17)

You have no idea brother, the heads are the ONLY problem I have issues with on my car. The first time I had a miss, thought it was a simple bad wire/coil or possibly an injector. It all checked out and when I pulled the valve cover, there are both rockers sitting in the head with the helicoils pulled out. The second time, one rocker pulled out, the other stayed in and it snapped both bearings. They are great heads for N/A but once you add some boost you'll start to get float around 5k.

Slo_240sx

iTrader: (17)

No problem man, hopefully my headaches and suffering will help alot of people out. Other than the pesky rocker problems, the car runs flawlessly. It makes 800/811 on low boost and has made over 1,000 turned up. It never broke a rocker on hard pulls or at the dyno.. However I will say having a 2 step may be the main reason why they have broke.

Here are some pictures of the heads for anyone's reference.



Conventional GM casting springs WILL NOT work.

TurboBuick6

iTrader: (2)

Wow are you guys trying to get this guy to waste his money? You absolutely do not need shaft mount rockers or aftermarket rockers for that matter. The OE's will be fine, just check wipe pattern and if needed get the pedistals milled to correct the wipe.

You can use your current springs, they sound fine. A lot of vendors bash everyone elses prodects here and guess what, they are all the same damn thing with different names on them.

The only thing stated I can fully agree on on so far is the 3/8 pushrods.

Good luck and talk to someone who is not going to try to sell you everything under the moon.

Slo_240sx

iTrader: (17)

I'm not trying to sell nor promote anything. I merely stated the issues I have with my heads. ETPs were designed to be used with shaft mount rockers. Can you use stock rockers on the provided pedestals? Yes, but you will run into issues with the valve guides wearing out unless they are replaced with PM guides. I also told newschool72 that with stock LS3 heads, I would run stock rockers.

V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

Just a follow up to the saga here, I tried ordering the Comp 1509's through a site sponsor, and 6 weeks later got an e-mail that that part number isn't active anymore and I can't get 'em. Looks like T&D, and Jessel are the only 2 options now. Sux burning 6 weeks to get that info

lil john

a good stud mount would help right now. That is the problem you run into with 1 off heads you will have a grand in just a rocker system ...

S10xGN

iTrader: (11)

There was a guy on E-Bay last week selling two sets of T&D's in 1.7/1.8 and 1.8/1.8, auction may still be active...

V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

I just talked with Brian at Comp and he says the Comp #1500 shaft rockers will work. Hopefully I'll have a solid answer to share soon.

V-10 Killer

iTrader: (22)

Quick update, after trying the Comp 1500 rockers (which T&D makes for them), they won't work without spacing them up .250". So they were returned and T&D is making me the correct set 1509/20045, as Slo previously mentioned.