TSP- Totally changed tune on LS3 cams???
05-25-2017, 12:46 AM
#41
I cannot tell you kpa or anything on the tune. We did not tune it Mike at new era did. Talking to the customer right after the install before the tune he already noticed a few things. 1 the sound at idle sounded meaner 2 the car didnt surge like it used to 3 he had alot more fun driving it around
Said mike didnt touch afr or timing at all in tune. Did change idle some, not sure if higher or lower (price is right reference) or wht else was done.
Here is the link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1868139-new-improved-prototype-hot-cam.html
More to the meat of our matter, it has more adv duration and adv overlap subsequently and same at 50 dur so according to what was said previously it shouldn't drive better.
This customers acute attention to detail makes me believe him.
And seriously the car sounds quite a bit better.
Said mike didnt touch afr or timing at all in tune. Did change idle some, not sure if higher or lower (price is right reference) or wht else was done.
Here is the link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1868139-new-improved-prototype-hot-cam.html
More to the meat of our matter, it has more adv duration and adv overlap subsequently and same at 50 dur so according to what was said previously it shouldn't drive better.
This customers acute attention to detail makes me believe him.
And seriously the car sounds quite a bit better.
05-25-2017, 12:47 AM
#42
So if I want 2-4 degrees for a really good driving LS3, I might do 8-10 max for a 416 with LS3 heads. For a more street strip LS3 deal that I like 4-8 degrees for, you could add 8 degrees to that for a 416 with LS3 heads for 12-16. Same goes for the 14 degrees on a max effort LS3, I'd go with 22-24 degrees on a 416 with LS3 heads.
Last edited by Martin Smallwood; 05-25-2017 at 12:55 AM.
05-25-2017, 12:53 AM
#44
I cannot tell you kpa or anything on the tune. We did not tune it Mike at new era did. Talking to the customer right after the install before the tune he already noticed a few things. 1 the sound at idle sounded meaner 2 the car didnt surge like it used to 3 he had alot more fun driving it around
Said mike didnt touch afr or timing at all in tune. Did change idle some, not sure if higher or lower (price is right reference) or wht else was done.
Here is the link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...e-hot-cam.html
More to the meat of our matter, it has more adv duration and adv overlap subsequently and same at 50 dur so according to what was said previously it shouldn't drive better.
This customers acute attention to detail makes me believe him.
And seriously the car sounds quite a bit better.
Said mike didnt touch afr or timing at all in tune. Did change idle some, not sure if higher or lower (price is right reference) or wht else was done.
Here is the link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...e-hot-cam.html
More to the meat of our matter, it has more adv duration and adv overlap subsequently and same at 50 dur so according to what was said previously it shouldn't drive better.
This customers acute attention to detail makes me believe him.
And seriously the car sounds quite a bit better.
Ever heard of a placebo before? KPA at idle would be the tell all and give actual data. Not SOTP. Not knocking your cam or your customer, but hard data on the scientific scope of things would be the lynch pin in this comparison. As long as idle RPM, idle timing and idle AFR was kept the same between the two cams that is.
The Hot cam could have more duration below .006 lobe lift and above .006 lobe lift than the new cam, we just wouldn't know it without cam doctoring it.
In my experience and every other reputable cam guy out there that has done this over and over again they will tell you the same thing. That overlap is what makes the largest difference if not all of the difference in the way an engine drives. Or if you want to get an idea of how one cam will drive in the same engine versus another camshaft. The difference in overlap between the two cams being considered will give the end user the best idea of how one will drive versus the other.
In your opinion, what would you attribute the better perceived driving manners to then? I'm curious. There always has to be a scientific explanation for a change in how an engine runs.
Last edited by Martin Smallwood; 05-25-2017 at 01:03 AM.
05-25-2017, 01:06 AM
#45
I believe i wont throw my customers findings to the placebo effect. New era did tune it before also.
Like i said his attention to detail makes me believe him. He measured pr length etc etc and made sure everything was right. He also measured pr length for the orig hot cam also. He drove it days before the dyno today.
Yes of course the idle is meaner due to the overlap but only at .006 is it more but if he can notice surging at cruise in the old hot cam and cannot notice it at all in this one, he knows what he is looking for. I didnt coach him on anything or tell him it was going to run worse or better with the new cam as far as driveability goes. Those were his findings. He also noticed zero noise from the valvetrain.
Just because these things werent noticed by a professional but only by him directly im not going to throw it in the psychological horsepower folder. Feeling like it has more power on tap maybe, the rest? No.
I also still dont believe what you said about the overlap on the 2 specs i gave you earlier either, based solely off what you are trying to prove now. The larger exhaust duration at .050 will almost always have more adv duration at .006 and therefore more overlap and as you say and say for all the others it will drive worse...so which is it?
Like i said his attention to detail makes me believe him. He measured pr length etc etc and made sure everything was right. He also measured pr length for the orig hot cam also. He drove it days before the dyno today.
Yes of course the idle is meaner due to the overlap but only at .006 is it more but if he can notice surging at cruise in the old hot cam and cannot notice it at all in this one, he knows what he is looking for. I didnt coach him on anything or tell him it was going to run worse or better with the new cam as far as driveability goes. Those were his findings. He also noticed zero noise from the valvetrain.
Just because these things werent noticed by a professional but only by him directly im not going to throw it in the psychological horsepower folder. Feeling like it has more power on tap maybe, the rest? No.
I also still dont believe what you said about the overlap on the 2 specs i gave you earlier either, based solely off what you are trying to prove now. The larger exhaust duration at .050 will almost always have more adv duration at .006 and therefore more overlap and as you say and say for all the others it will drive worse...so which is it?
05-25-2017, 01:53 AM
#49
Most people dont want to shim in the first place. The 1219x is a good spring and ive used it before i like it. Above that the manley 221438 is an awesome spring...pricey but good. Esp if you want super lightweight. Add in a manley tool steel lightweight ret or ti and their machined splitlocks and have a very nice package...and a tad more lift.
Budget literally means budget to me but not ls6 spring budget. I dont like em and wont recommens them. Quality for the price is a better way to state it i guess.
05-25-2017, 07:33 AM
#50
I don't understand why theres a mystery of the car idling better and driving better if you said that Mike @ New Era touched the idle tables of the car. If he played with the throttle follower and cracker tables guess what.....surging will be better as well. The car may have just had a better tune in it now. I didn't buy the whole temp argument as to why it made minimally more hp than the original either....isn't that the point of SAE vs. STD graphs, especially if it was on the same dyno?
05-25-2017, 10:28 AM
#52
I don't understand why theres a mystery of the car idling better and driving better if you said that Mike @ New Era touched the idle tables of the car. If he played with the throttle follower and cracker tables guess what.....surging will be better as well. The car may have just had a better tune in it now. I didn't buy the whole temp argument as to why it made minimally more hp than the original either....isn't that the point of SAE vs. STD graphs, especially if it was on the same dyno?
The temp change is a very valid argument. Ask any dyno person even engine dyno guys. Unless you are a day or so removed youll likely get a diff reading, plus a change in outside temp can change inshop temps alot, sacrificing spark. I did not come up with those excuses by myself i asked a few other places as well as used my own exp plus initial input from the customer. I did say the truth hurts in that thread.
Dyno a car in the winter vs in the summer even with std or sae corr and youll still see a diff.
As to what was actually changed youd have to ask New Era.
05-25-2017, 11:28 AM
#53
Because it did it before any tune. Immediately that was his first response after the install.
The temp change is a very valid argument. Ask any dyno person even engine dyno guys. Unless you are a day or so removed youll likely get a diff reading, plus a change in outside temp can change inshop temps alot, sacrificing spark. I did not come up with those excuses by myself i asked a few other places as well as used my own exp plus initial input from the customer. I did say the truth hurts in that thread.
Dyno a car in the winter vs in the summer even with std or sae corr and youll still see a diff.
As to what was actually changed youd have to ask New Era.
The temp change is a very valid argument. Ask any dyno person even engine dyno guys. Unless you are a day or so removed youll likely get a diff reading, plus a change in outside temp can change inshop temps alot, sacrificing spark. I did not come up with those excuses by myself i asked a few other places as well as used my own exp plus initial input from the customer. I did say the truth hurts in that thread.
Dyno a car in the winter vs in the summer even with std or sae corr and youll still see a diff.
As to what was actually changed youd have to ask New Era.
I'd be disappointed too if those were my results when the customer stated how much better the car runs and feels faster....from 10hp.
05-25-2017, 11:36 AM
#54
Im not disappointed and neither is he. He loves it vs the old hot cam.
As far as the rest, that is up to you. SOTP will tell you if it surges in 6th gear around town, a dyno wont.
Its an option that costs the same, is higher quality, just as quiet, and is built with higher quality products and makes more power. Is there any drawback?
As far as the rest, that is up to you. SOTP will tell you if it surges in 6th gear around town, a dyno wont.
Its an option that costs the same, is higher quality, just as quiet, and is built with higher quality products and makes more power. Is there any drawback?
05-25-2017, 11:47 AM
#55
Im not disappointed and neither is he. He loves it vs the old hot cam.
As far as the rest, that is up to you. SOTP will tell you if it surges in 6th gear around town, a dyno wont.
Its an option that costs the same, is higher quality, just as quiet, and is built with higher quality products and makes more power. Is there any drawback?
As far as the rest, that is up to you. SOTP will tell you if it surges in 6th gear around town, a dyno wont.
Its an option that costs the same, is higher quality, just as quiet, and is built with higher quality products and makes more power. Is there any drawback?
05-25-2017, 11:58 AM
#56
I trust New Eras tune. Even a loaded dyno cannot simulate driving on the road. Steady state it is good but still you arent driving 60mph through the countrside, you are spinning the drivetrain. Loaded dynos hurt too many more egos though and everyone either says break out the MD to DJ correction factor or take it to the strip because you cant race a dyno. Even when the cars dyno low for the combo etc etc. It will be taken to the track as well soon.
If you have a cam that will surge and may require extra tuning and you have a near identical one that wont, which one is the better buy? Esp when they are the same price.
The ls6 springs vs the pac1218 isnt a contest. The gm cams took a shorter pr in that situation, ours used our 7.400 prs for exactly the preload he wanted. He measured in both cases with a dial indicator. If the gm cam surges with the same tune ours doesnt, then there has to be some issue right? Our cam has quieter operation than the gm cam set up at same preload, is still easy on th valvetrain, and gives a very good alternative to the original.
You are trying to dig and that is your prerogative, I dont see why though.
If you have a cam that will surge and may require extra tuning and you have a near identical one that wont, which one is the better buy? Esp when they are the same price.
The ls6 springs vs the pac1218 isnt a contest. The gm cams took a shorter pr in that situation, ours used our 7.400 prs for exactly the preload he wanted. He measured in both cases with a dial indicator. If the gm cam surges with the same tune ours doesnt, then there has to be some issue right? Our cam has quieter operation than the gm cam set up at same preload, is still easy on th valvetrain, and gives a very good alternative to the original.
You are trying to dig and that is your prerogative, I dont see why though.
05-25-2017, 12:06 PM
#57
10 Second Club
If we're strictly talking camshafts effecting driving manners, overlap and overlap alone is the deciding factor.
A 226/242 on a 113 and a 232/236 on a 113 are both going to drive the same irregardless that one has more exhaust duration. They both have the same overlap.
A 226/242 on a 113 and a 232/236 on a 113 are both going to drive the same irregardless that one has more exhaust duration. They both have the same overlap.
05-25-2017, 12:14 PM
#58
I trust New Eras tune. Even a loaded dyno cannot simulate driving on the road. Steady state it is good but still you arent driving 60mph through the countrside, you are spinning the drivetrain. Loaded dynos hurt too many more egos though and everyone either says break out the MD to DJ correction factor or take it to the strip because you cant race a dyno. Even when the cars dyno low for the combo etc etc. It will be taken to the track as well soon.
If you have a cam that will surge and may require extra tuning and you have a near identical one that wont, which one is the better buy? Esp when they are the same price.
The ls6 springs vs the pac1218 isnt a contest. The gm cams took a shorter pr in that situation, ours used our 7.400 prs for exactly the preload he wanted. He measured in both cases with a dial indicator. If the gm cam surges with the same tune ours doesnt, then there has to be some issue right? Our cam has quieter operation than the gm cam set up at same preload, is still easy on th valvetrain, and gives a very good alternative to the original.
You are trying to dig and that is your prerogative, I dont see why though.
If you have a cam that will surge and may require extra tuning and you have a near identical one that wont, which one is the better buy? Esp when they are the same price.
The ls6 springs vs the pac1218 isnt a contest. The gm cams took a shorter pr in that situation, ours used our 7.400 prs for exactly the preload he wanted. He measured in both cases with a dial indicator. If the gm cam surges with the same tune ours doesnt, then there has to be some issue right? Our cam has quieter operation than the gm cam set up at same preload, is still easy on th valvetrain, and gives a very good alternative to the original.
You are trying to dig and that is your prerogative, I dont see why though.
05-25-2017, 12:17 PM
#59
I have a pretty firm grasp on all of it.
I dont know what went on with his tune only what was relayed to me from the customer so i can only give you the info he gave me. I never said it would be faster or that it would drive better. Based off the customers feedback to me, he said it indeed drives better, so what should i say? I wanted to offer an option to the hot cam that met power, price, and customer concern. I did that and the cam Specs are nearly identical. Youd be surprised how many people are so scared of over xxx lift because of all the so called issues with it, so they buy the gm cams. I wanted to give them another option with proof. And that was achieved.
Obviously a custom cam would be different but maybe you missed the actual point of doing it.
Its obviously not for you i get that. Im not trying to sell it to you or demand you buy it. There are plenty of options out there.
Clearly you missed the late night sarcasm in that post.
I dont know what went on with his tune only what was relayed to me from the customer so i can only give you the info he gave me. I never said it would be faster or that it would drive better. Based off the customers feedback to me, he said it indeed drives better, so what should i say? I wanted to offer an option to the hot cam that met power, price, and customer concern. I did that and the cam Specs are nearly identical. Youd be surprised how many people are so scared of over xxx lift because of all the so called issues with it, so they buy the gm cams. I wanted to give them another option with proof. And that was achieved.
Obviously a custom cam would be different but maybe you missed the actual point of doing it.
Its obviously not for you i get that. Im not trying to sell it to you or demand you buy it. There are plenty of options out there.
Clearly you missed the late night sarcasm in that post.
Last edited by tech@WS6store; 05-25-2017 at 12:24 PM.
05-25-2017, 12:27 PM
#60
TECH Senior Member
ddnspider- Man, you gotta lighten up. All they did here was to try to build a better mousetrap by improving on a known good mousetrap, even if it's old tech. Are there more up-to-date cams out there? Yup! The thing here is, the GM Hot Cam is a known, and good for its age, quantity. This was an exercise in seeing how good it could be by updating an aspect or two of it. If you don't care about the outcome, move on. There are those here who are interested to see what could come of it. Maybe you don't agree with the thinking or methods involved. Fine. I have no problem with it, and doubt many others do either. Info is info. Better to know than not to.