99socalFRC

iTrader: (6)

TSP WTF. We have been reading for years that longer durations on the exhaust side of LS3 cams is not needed. And for years you have been selling cams with 229/236 or 231/236 splits for the LS3. Claiming they make just as much power as the bigger split counterparts produced elsewhere.

I was on the website today and, um, did you just have it wrong all those years?

As an owner of your 229/236 cam, I'm sort of pissed. I bypassed the larger exhaust duration cams because it was touted that this massive split was not needed. To see your new offering of LS3 cams really makes me wish I had bought a BTR cam from the get go, as it appears they had it right all along.

tech@WS6store

iTrader: (2)

They have also had a 231/239 cam for quite some time.
They are doing alot of straight off the cam grinder and into the dyno tests, so maybe their ideas have changed based off the way they are making their lobes. Every person has their own way to design a cam. For ls3s youll hear lots of buzzwords like piston speed and reversion, but quite a fe engines with ls3 heads make power with 4 - 8* split. There are some on other forums that swear by single pattern or 232/234 only.
Take it with a grain of salt and just have fun with your build. The difference in making power isnt just in th cam alone, but in the tune.

Sales3@Texas-Speed

iTrader: (2)

We made a lot of changes to our profiles thanks to the new million dollar cam grinder. We were able to make changes on virtually every camshaft we offer. I apologize that stuff progresses, but that's what happens in this industry.

We were able to test cams by moving them 1 & 2 degrees at a time & keep camshafts guaranteed within .1 degree of accuracy.

You can do a whole lot of testing when you walk 100ft from the dyno to the grinder!

That being said the new cam is still not for everyone. Some people like the smaller exhaust because they will drive better.

Make no mistake the new lobe profiles made most of the gains. We were grinding the same 229/236 as we sold back in the day & our new profiles made 6-7hp gains!

If you'd like to try a new one PM me & if you do before & after we can work out a trade out

99socalFRC

iTrader: (6)

I totally understand that things progress. But the thing is for years there were other builders out there running these larger split cams and to be honest the new TSP grinds look very similar to what these other guys have been doing since the onset of the rectangle port programs.

I'll consider some type of a trade I guess as I had been feeling like this cam was leaving a little on the table anyhow.

s57_s2k

do you have stealth cam for ls3 heads ?

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

There are several factors that work together. Learning, fashion and testing.

Once upon a time oh about 1997-1998 a 216/220 cam was a big cutting edge cam for the LS1. By 1999-2000, like two years later conventional splits were out and single pattern was king. It was easier to go bigger and tune with a single pattern at the time. First the T1 & B1 were king both 221/221 Cams, then the hammer cam 222/222. Thunder Racing's 224/224, Morgan Motorsports 224/224's were the rage and Cams to surpass and Comp Cams did with the XE-R family. My 224/224 XE-R was actually a tad on the large cam size back then. Fashion changed again, I mean Cams evolved and the era of reverse split was upon us. TR 230/224's and similar were the cams of choice. A couple of years passed and the conventional split was back with the 231/236 as the new craze. Tuning improved and cam size grew as vendors tested and got feed back. Soon the era of the donkey dick cams like TRex & Magic Stick and big peak numbers were the fashionable.

I think the LS3 has had a different (but similar) sort of progression in cam theory and design. I talked with one of Katech 's former cylinder head development people in detail about the LS3 head - and he said ( condensed and paraphrased by me) LS3 heads are a tricky head to learn to cam properly and tooks some work to figure out.

However, it's always been about the correct combination of parts for heads, cam and intake getting matched up. As the heads and intakes evolve and change so to does the cam philosophy.

I still (in theory) like small/medium single patterns cams on a 113-114 LSA matched to heads with excellent intake and exhaust ports with the best matched intake - because driveability seems better when sitting in a traffic jam for 2 hours.

​​​

mOtOrHeAd MiKe

iTrader: (8)

I could kiss you. As a standalone post these points should be resonating with the masses.

We are very fortunate that there has been a massive undertaking to uncloud the ins-and-outs of specing a cam and made it accessible to the general populace. Gone are the days of 2XX/2XX .6XX/.6XX 11X+X phantom cam specs, and it seems that every vendor and their uncle is smartening up and becoming more transparent. These days we are seeing a lot more conservative combinations making more (and more efficient) power than earlier builds with overdone parts (like donkey dick cams).

So how can you fault a vendor for improving their parts and services with time? You cannot.

There will always be the new-new and it will make your previous purchase feel obsolete (even if it is fine). Short of a full blown maximum effort SBE build there will always be something left on the table with your typical H/C/I combination (price point dependant) - a 9/10ths solution is good enough for most of us.

tech@WS6store

iTrader: (2)

Youd be surprised how many "shops" still lock their tunes and wont publish cam Specs or even give you info on what spring kit to use. Ive had 4 customers buy a cam from some unknown local place and ask for springs for em cuz that place charges 475+ for a cam and 300+ for springs. And people STILL buy from them.
The dodge guys are super bad about that too esp the viper guys.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I think the issue the OP has is that in this particular case, it isn't progress. That the cam theory existed from other vendors long ago and that there was a prevailing sentiment that more exhaust duration was better and TSP seemed to run counter to that but has now come around to that sentiment...

Regardless of theory, opening the exhaust valve earlier does indeed make more peak power and power past peak. Drivability and peak torque may suffer. And I think TSP has said as much. So it really comes down to what you want from the cam. The head architecture may be more sensitive to it. But camming cars has been going on for a while. Looking at E/I ratio, sensitivity to overlap, intake manifold design, intended use, fuel octane, etc. all play a role. You can stick almost any cam into an LS3 engine and it will make power. So the question is how fast do you want to go and how much do you want to deal with from the cam on the street?

spanks13

iTrader: (5)

A long exhaust duration cam still is not right for everyone.

People like Brian Tooley have shown that a long exhaust duration with LS3 heads can be a "win/win" - adding power up top and down low (goes against conventional wisdom), however that is at WOT only. Driveability, emissions, part throttle power and response will all be negatively affected due to the early exhaust valve opening and increased overlap.

If you don't have shorter gears and a 6 speed or a stalled auto that gets you up to 3500+ real quick I'd stay away from any larger cam.

Corvette forum's Spinmonster pushed the small intake lobe small split cams real hard for a lot of years and they made a lot of people very happy.

For what it's worth, LS3 heads are not the only ones that make more power upstairs with a big split. Look at almost any drag race camshaft for any engine out there and you will see extra exhaust duration. Above torque peak there's basically zero drawback.

tech@WS6store

iTrader: (2)

I believe lingenfelter did it before it was cool.

And as far as spin...yeah.....

spanks13

iTrader: (5)

Am I wrong about Spin? Haha honestly I don't know much about it just know he pushed for smaller cams and showed some decent results for the day. I've never been too active on any of the forums just skim them for results.

tech@WS6store

iTrader: (2)

You werent wrong in that they made power, but his 232 234 or whatever it was was nothing special. better designed cams with diff lobes and even less intake duration made more power...so thats all i got to say about that /forest gump
Even the hot cam makes power in the ls3...according to gm 50 crank hp. i bet its more than 480 but the ls3 with tune is more than 430 so hard to compare.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, I'm not saying a lot of exhaust duration is right for everyone. But it's the way to make power at the drag strip. Hell, I have a 227/244 cam right now with LS6 heads that flow like 85% E/I and it makes stupid power uptop. It doesn't drive as well as a cam with less exhaust duration and similar overlap, but it does make a lot of power for it's overall size. Of course, it's designed for a Procharger where the exhaust needs all the help it can get.

And just about anything in an LS3 makes power. It's a fairly large engine with a lot of airflow...

G Atsma

Later specs show the Hot Cam pushed the stock 430 HP LS3 to 495 HP for a 65 HP gain. They still called it a 480HP engine in spite of the power increase. Not bad for an old-tech, low lift cam....

NHRATA01

iTrader: (10)

Hehe, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I'm still running my T1 16 years later, but I recall when I bought it in late '01 and the C1 had just come out the belief was "you don't want to run more than about .560" lift on an LS1".

spanks13

iTrader: (5)

No, but if you read the forums blindly you would think that every cam that slides into an LS3 better have 12-16 more degrees of exhaust duration or it'll run like crap. That's what has the OP so annoyed.

There's nothing new when it comes to duration, peak lift, LSA and advance. Everything has been done before.

Martin Smallwood

iTrader: (2)

Overlap and overlap alone is the deciding factor in how a cam drives in regards to drivability. Not exhaust duration.

When I worked at Tick in late 2013 I came out with the 227/238 115, the 229/244 112 and the 233/248 113 "LS3 Polluter". The LS3 Polluter worked so well that BTR even asked if they could use it as their Stage 4 with my permission and gave me credit in the info section of their web page for the design. BTR in the past year I believe has changed that to a 233/250 113.

These profiles have been proven for years.

tech@WS6store

iTrader: (2)

Im not sure id say that 100%. There are always exceptions.

Martin Smallwood

iTrader: (2)

If we're strictly talking camshafts effecting driving manners, overlap and overlap alone is the deciding factor.

A 226/242 on a 113 and a 232/236 on a 113 are both going to drive the same irregardless that one has more exhaust duration. They both have the same overlap.