MAST Black Label Head Failure...$20K motor destroyed. Need Help.
02-13-2018, 09:43 PM
#61
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Dont know anything about your mast heads, wont ever buy a trickflow, but is it possible that you are saying
"trickflow valves" and meaning Trick Titanium valves". Two completley different companies and would make a lot more sense to me if they were trick titanium
while i sont care for trickflow, i just want to make sure we are all on the same page and not dragging them into something they had nothing to do with
"trickflow valves" and meaning Trick Titanium valves". Two completley different companies and would make a lot more sense to me if they were trick titanium
while i sont care for trickflow, i just want to make sure we are all on the same page and not dragging them into something they had nothing to do with
02-13-2018, 09:59 PM
#62
10 Second Club
Dont know anything about your mast heads, wont ever buy a trickflow, but is it possible that you are saying
"trickflow valves" and meaning Trick Titanium valves". Two completley different companies and would make a lot more sense to me if they were trick titanium
while i sont care for trickflow, i just want to make sure we are all on the same page and not dragging them into something they had nothing to do with
"trickflow valves" and meaning Trick Titanium valves". Two completley different companies and would make a lot more sense to me if they were trick titanium
while i sont care for trickflow, i just want to make sure we are all on the same page and not dragging them into something they had nothing to do with
02-13-2018, 10:00 PM
#63
10 Second Club
I had a friend named bill in Clarksville buy a mopar 360 assembled cheap by a ‘shop’. Something happened to the block and I rebuilt it for him....I found the mains lip reversed, a grade5 bolt ground to hold a rod cap on, and a grade8 bolt that was 1/16” too long and had no clamping on a main cap, etc.
Moral of the story...check everything. Take everything apart. Not criticizing the OP.
I hope you did hammer....
Moral of the story...check everything. Take everything apart. Not criticizing the OP.
I hope you did hammer....
02-23-2018, 04:46 AM
#64
sorry to see your loss, I have experienced many in the past. trust me.
for what its worth, this is how my 265cc LS7 heads were invoiced:
422-165 2.165" 5/16 Premium Solid Steel Race Valve 5.450" Long
421-600 1.600" 5/16 Premium Solid Steel Race Valve 5.450" Long
PAC-L8048 Ti 10 Degree Locks 5/16 Stem + 0.050"
PAC-S103 PAC Dual Spring Seat 0.575"
PAC-R505 Ti Retainer for Dual Nitrided Solid Roller Spring
PAC-1325 Nitrided High Rate 0.800" dual spring for solid roller
The "422-XXX" are MAST part #s, so I have no idea who made the valves. They have not failed, however I did have someone tear them completely down and set them up from my specific cam. They were in good condition. So far little use, but many 7500+rpm run ups.
The only way I could see a valve ripping apart was lash from a high rate spring banging it shut, heat, or material failure. Did the face of the valves and seats seem normal?
I suspect detonation based on a few of those pics and suspect heat could have had a part in that failure. Inspect the broke off valve. I once had a set of TFS heads. I leaned on the engine one time too much and ended up w/one of the valves hanging in the guide. Though I was lucky, I think it would be easy to see how seized valve in a guide from heat could have caused a similar problem.
That said. I will say, I had to deal w/MAST on another issue of quality and they fought me. Would not replace the head I questioned. Was a matter of what looked like material peeling from inside an intake valve chamber.
for what its worth, this is how my 265cc LS7 heads were invoiced:
422-165 2.165" 5/16 Premium Solid Steel Race Valve 5.450" Long
421-600 1.600" 5/16 Premium Solid Steel Race Valve 5.450" Long
PAC-L8048 Ti 10 Degree Locks 5/16 Stem + 0.050"
PAC-S103 PAC Dual Spring Seat 0.575"
PAC-R505 Ti Retainer for Dual Nitrided Solid Roller Spring
PAC-1325 Nitrided High Rate 0.800" dual spring for solid roller
The "422-XXX" are MAST part #s, so I have no idea who made the valves. They have not failed, however I did have someone tear them completely down and set them up from my specific cam. They were in good condition. So far little use, but many 7500+rpm run ups.
The only way I could see a valve ripping apart was lash from a high rate spring banging it shut, heat, or material failure. Did the face of the valves and seats seem normal?
I suspect detonation based on a few of those pics and suspect heat could have had a part in that failure. Inspect the broke off valve. I once had a set of TFS heads. I leaned on the engine one time too much and ended up w/one of the valves hanging in the guide. Though I was lucky, I think it would be easy to see how seized valve in a guide from heat could have caused a similar problem.
That said. I will say, I had to deal w/MAST on another issue of quality and they fought me. Would not replace the head I questioned. Was a matter of what looked like material peeling from inside an intake valve chamber.
02-23-2018, 06:44 AM
#65
I want to thank all of u that have responded. There have been some good info/suggestions passed along (will def find out valve guide material). I haven’t forgotten the thread, but only want to add, when I have something of quality to add. I am awaiting feedback from the head/valve inspection. I dont believe in just throwing blame around without facts, therefore I will report back with what I am told. Hopefully soon.
For all guys asking about wear or usage patterns. I am being completely honest when I say that the car had just gotten past a break-in and was still on break-in tune (e.g. conservative timing and somewhat fat on fueling). It had a couple of trips to the dyno for WOT tuning. Boost never went above 15lbs...and that was on the dyno. On the street it was useless to go over 10 and tire slip made maintaining boost almost impossible. If I had made it to the track and it failed...I would have probably been happy to at least got a run or two in, due to all the project delays. I would have been dissapointed, annoyed but this is diffferent.
Again, thanks to all that contributing positively to this thread!
For all guys asking about wear or usage patterns. I am being completely honest when I say that the car had just gotten past a break-in and was still on break-in tune (e.g. conservative timing and somewhat fat on fueling). It had a couple of trips to the dyno for WOT tuning. Boost never went above 15lbs...and that was on the dyno. On the street it was useless to go over 10 and tire slip made maintaining boost almost impossible. If I had made it to the track and it failed...I would have probably been happy to at least got a run or two in, due to all the project delays. I would have been dissapointed, annoyed but this is diffferent.
Again, thanks to all that contributing positively to this thread!
02-23-2018, 09:41 AM
#66
I want to thank all of u that have responded. There have been some good info/suggestions passed along (will def find out valve guide material). I haven’t forgotten the thread, but only want to add, when I have something of quality to add. I am awaiting feedback from the head/valve inspection. I dont believe in just throwing blame around without facts, therefore I will report back with what I am told. Hopefully soon.
For all guys asking about wear or usage patterns. I am being completely honest when I say that the car had just gotten past a break-in and was still on break-in tune (e.g. conservative timing and somewhat fat on fueling). It had a couple of trips to the dyno for WOT tuning. Boost never went above 15lbs...and that was on the dyno. On the street it was useless to go over 10 and tire slip made maintaining boost almost impossible. If I had made it to the track and it failed...I would have probably been happy to at least got a run or two in, due to all the project delays. I would have been dissapointed, annoyed but this is diffferent.
Again, thanks to all that contributing positively to this thread!
For all guys asking about wear or usage patterns. I am being completely honest when I say that the car had just gotten past a break-in and was still on break-in tune (e.g. conservative timing and somewhat fat on fueling). It had a couple of trips to the dyno for WOT tuning. Boost never went above 15lbs...and that was on the dyno. On the street it was useless to go over 10 and tire slip made maintaining boost almost impossible. If I had made it to the track and it failed...I would have probably been happy to at least got a run or two in, due to all the project delays. I would have been dissapointed, annoyed but this is diffferent.
Again, thanks to all that contributing positively to this thread!
02-23-2018, 10:28 AM
#67
02-23-2018, 07:32 PM
#69
The only way I could see a valve ripping apart was lash from a high rate spring banging it shut, heat, or material failure. Did the face of the valves and seats seem normal?
I suspect detonation based on a few of those pics and suspect heat could have had a part in that failure.
I suspect detonation based on a few of those pics and suspect heat could have had a part in that failure.
Where do you see signs of detonation?
This is a serious question, Where do you see any signs of detonation?
What you thought was a burnt strap in your earlier post was just the angle of the picture. The strap is there and looks to be perfectly normal. I don't see any pitting/specking/melting on anything. What are you seeing?
02-23-2018, 09:42 PM
#70
Valves bang shut that's how they are designed, I seriously doubt his springs are so strong that they are breaking valves before bending pushrods or destroying lifters/cam.
Where do you see signs of detonation?
This is a serious question, Where do you see any signs of detonation?
What you thought was a burnt strap in your earlier post was just the angle of the picture. The strap is there and looks to be perfectly normal. I don't see any pitting/specking/melting on anything. What are you seeing?
Where do you see signs of detonation?
This is a serious question, Where do you see any signs of detonation?
What you thought was a burnt strap in your earlier post was just the angle of the picture. The strap is there and looks to be perfectly normal. I don't see any pitting/specking/melting on anything. What are you seeing?
02-23-2018, 10:00 PM
#71
Valves bang shut that's how they are designed, I seriously doubt his springs are so strong that they are breaking valves before bending pushrods or destroying lifters/cam.
Where do you see signs of detonation?
This is a serious question, Where do you see any signs of detonation?
What you thought was a burnt strap in your earlier post was just the angle of the picture. The strap is there and looks to be perfectly normal. I don't see any pitting/specking/melting on anything. What are you seeing?
Where do you see signs of detonation?
This is a serious question, Where do you see any signs of detonation?
What you thought was a burnt strap in your earlier post was just the angle of the picture. The strap is there and looks to be perfectly normal. I don't see any pitting/specking/melting on anything. What are you seeing?
02-24-2018, 09:52 AM
#73
FormerVendor
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Ring Landing Hi LL, I am on your side !
The FIRST observation by ANY piston engineer upon damage inspection observation IS the Top Ring Land Area AND to inspect for Ring Butting.
Please send a piston "side" picture, put this to bed !
Lance
The FIRST observation by ANY piston engineer upon damage inspection observation IS the Top Ring Land Area AND to inspect for Ring Butting.
Please send a piston "side" picture, put this to bed !
Lance
02-26-2018, 06:25 PM
#74
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damn man. just looking at all that carnage makes me cringe and a bit sick to my stomach. i just pulled the trigger on a high end set of heads myself last week and the thought that a reputable manufacturer possibly cut some corners like they possibly did in this scenario has me a bit nervous.
that looks like damage caused by something not right in the valvetrain. was it all the valves or intake only?
that looks like damage caused by something not right in the valvetrain. was it all the valves or intake only?
03-04-2018, 04:06 PM
#75
9 Second Club
I presume the valves will have part numbers etched onto them ?
What are they, and were they what you were invoiced/charged for ?
And as Lance mentions, can you have a shop or someone check guide clearance for all the guides both "good" and damaged to see if any are too loose. Obviously the damaged ones may not be usable to measure though
As well as checking installed spring heights etc.
What are they, and were they what you were invoiced/charged for ?
And as Lance mentions, can you have a shop or someone check guide clearance for all the guides both "good" and damaged to see if any are too loose. Obviously the damaged ones may not be usable to measure though
As well as checking installed spring heights etc.
03-06-2018, 10:37 AM
#76
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Looking for some help here guys...and will provide some in return.
Last year around this time, I embarked on a pretty significant twin turbo build:
- ERL 427 Shortblock
- Mast Black Label Heads (the works)
- Custom Twin Turbo System
- BMR A2W intake
- Chiller
...the build was held up for a number for reasons, notably valve sourcing for the Mast Heads. Fast forward to October 2017...car is finished, proper break-in completed and prelim tuning was complete. I was all set to head to the first track rental at Bowling green Kentucky when disaster struck on short trip to the gym. Dropped a valve, with 3 more on the way out (see pics of carnage). Destroyed a $20+K almost irreplaceable ERL motor...the culprit...Trick Flow Valves used in my $5K Mast heads.
I work for a major OEM and have some friends (e.g. power train engineers) in the Performance group that took a look at the damage and initial analysis concluded that it was faulty valves. Given the racing connection, they were familiar with what usually comes in Mast Heads (e.g. Victory Valves or forgot the other source) and noted that they werent the normal valves. Gonna have formal write up done for use later.
Brings us to today. I have been waiting since Oct of 2016 for replacement heads/valves with commitment that Mast would “take care of me”. Got the call today saying that heads are ready and that they would be provided as soon as I remitted payment.
At this point, I’ve had enough. I am going to use the $15K rebuild money to get the attorney’s involved. Not only are they not willing to replace the damaged motor (block requires special ERL re-sleeve and new pistons), they won’t even replace the parts that destroyed the motor (e.g. heads/valves)! The purpose of this post is two-fold:
1.) Wanted to warn anyone that has purchased Mast in the past year, check which valves you have...probably worth the trouble.
2.) If you have purchased Mast Heads in the past year to 18mos, and have had a failure, contact me...we may be able to get together on the legal cost and to show pattern. Im sure I’m not the only one.
Note: this is not the usual “bitch” post, I’m looking for info here. Im not looking for anyone that has had a great experience to chime in on why Mast is great. I thought they were great too, which is why I spent $5K on their heads....my experience hasn’t been so great now that I have in issue. If the car actually made it to the track, I wouldn’t have said a word...its part of the “sport”. Problem is, car only had low boost street miles and analysis from a machine shop and my professional racing engineers showed part failure. Probably pretty easy court case. Guess I’ll be racing the new Z this year.
Last year around this time, I embarked on a pretty significant twin turbo build:
- ERL 427 Shortblock
- Mast Black Label Heads (the works)
- Custom Twin Turbo System
- BMR A2W intake
- Chiller
...the build was held up for a number for reasons, notably valve sourcing for the Mast Heads. Fast forward to October 2017...car is finished, proper break-in completed and prelim tuning was complete. I was all set to head to the first track rental at Bowling green Kentucky when disaster struck on short trip to the gym. Dropped a valve, with 3 more on the way out (see pics of carnage). Destroyed a $20+K almost irreplaceable ERL motor...the culprit...Trick Flow Valves used in my $5K Mast heads.
I work for a major OEM and have some friends (e.g. power train engineers) in the Performance group that took a look at the damage and initial analysis concluded that it was faulty valves. Given the racing connection, they were familiar with what usually comes in Mast Heads (e.g. Victory Valves or forgot the other source) and noted that they werent the normal valves. Gonna have formal write up done for use later.
Brings us to today. I have been waiting since Oct of 2016 for replacement heads/valves with commitment that Mast would “take care of me”. Got the call today saying that heads are ready and that they would be provided as soon as I remitted payment.
At this point, I’ve had enough. I am going to use the $15K rebuild money to get the attorney’s involved. Not only are they not willing to replace the damaged motor (block requires special ERL re-sleeve and new pistons), they won’t even replace the parts that destroyed the motor (e.g. heads/valves)! The purpose of this post is two-fold:
1.) Wanted to warn anyone that has purchased Mast in the past year, check which valves you have...probably worth the trouble.
2.) If you have purchased Mast Heads in the past year to 18mos, and have had a failure, contact me...we may be able to get together on the legal cost and to show pattern. Im sure I’m not the only one.
Note: this is not the usual “bitch” post, I’m looking for info here. Im not looking for anyone that has had a great experience to chime in on why Mast is great. I thought they were great too, which is why I spent $5K on their heads....my experience hasn’t been so great now that I have in issue. If the car actually made it to the track, I wouldn’t have said a word...its part of the “sport”. Problem is, car only had low boost street miles and analysis from a machine shop and my professional racing engineers showed part failure. Probably pretty easy court case. Guess I’ll be racing the new Z this year.
i have a 427 ERL 6 bolt 1/2 inch stud arp and billet main caps for sale 9254347099
