MAST Black Label Head Failure...$20K motor destroyed. Need Help.
09-18-2018, 08:07 PM
#121
Parts should always be checked! I've had new parts disassembled to verify what was purchased. On any head I've always had a head ported(even with being CnC"ed by the aftermarket )and I purchase the finishing parts .. .... Mast doesn't make valves so I wouldn't trust them any way. I don't trust people in general.... . Give me a aftermarket head without parts all day. I just want your casting.
09-20-2018, 05:27 AM
#123
TECH Veteran
09-20-2018, 08:00 PM
#126
TECH Senior Member
09-21-2018, 06:48 AM
#127
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Originally Posted by qweedqwag
Aren't those the valves in this moral of a story
09-21-2018, 08:10 AM
#128
I wanted to re-clarify some things:
1.) While the valves were the issue. My REAL problems isn't the failure. Its really about how everything was handled. If you have an issue, you take steps to diagnose (documentation/inspection) and then you own up to things...this goes for Mast and Trick Titanium (not Trick Flow). These kinds of things should never land on the backs of customers. Its usually bad long-term business. Mast treatment of me was just that, a business decision. Time will tell if this approach will benefit them in the long run. I have spoken with a few others that have had similar issues/similar recourse/varying degrees of damage.... I regret that this is becoming a "****" on Mast post, because that wasn't really the original intent. I just wanted to relay the facts and collect more data points before deciding what I wanted to do next. Maybe the best that I can hope for is to save someone else from making a similar "mistake".
2.) The valves were the faulty part. I see alot of comments about inspecting parts. When there is a metalurgic failure, I'm not sure any amount of pre-inspection would have avoided this. The whole setup only had a few dyno runs and <1000 or so break-in miles, so not sure if an inspection would/would not have uncovered any issues or would have warranted additional inspection. If I had had a chance to put the car on the track and the failure occurred...I wouldn't have uttered a word. I understand completely, Pay to Pay to Play. According to Chris @ Mast, Trick Titanium refused to return any of their calls asking about the issue. Read whatever you want into that... My read is "pass the buck"...but still acknowledging that there was an issue.
Note: Valve mfr was Trick Titanium.
3.) Value of Premium heads...I have had 4 sets of heads on this car:
- Stock LSA (LSA Supercharger, mild mods).... 520rwhp
- Trick Flow (LSA Supercharger, Stage 2 Cam)... ~680rwhp,..Mid 10's in the 1.4
- Rick Crawford worked LS9 (LSA Supercharger, Rick Crawford Spec Cam, built block)...9.98@139.xx (full weight 4,500lb+, with full size Weld 17" Rear, 18x8" Frt)
- Mast (TT 427)...times coming soon
Point: My car has run the fastest with ported LS9 heads...I noticed this going in and thought more than a little bit about keeping them, but given the move to TT/Larger CI and higher hp/boost levels, I opted to go with a Mast 6 bolt head/block. 20/20 hindsight, I am wondering about the value of high dollar heads on a blown setup, especially if their customer service/support is lacking. Some are going after that last nth of hp, but most just want to go racing and have fun. I'm in the latter camp. After my experience with the LS9 heads, thinking a set of GMPP 6 Bolt LS3's with SS valves wouldn't have been just as good for half the price with the added bonus of having gone thru some level of an OEM level engineering validation process. I am ok with paying a premium, as long as I get something for my money. I didn't even get dinner after the treatment I got from Mast (jk! ;-0 )
Another data point: I just "finished" a Single Turbo LT4 C7 Z06 build...Cammotion Cam and Stock Untouched LT4 heads. While the track will be the ultimate test, that car spit out over 50 4 digit dyno pulls with 3 different turbos at 15-17lbs, all within 40hp of each other for a given turbo combo. Again...Stock, untouched heads! Even if a set of high dollar heads were avail, would it be worth it, given what you do or don't get for the extra $$'s. This is something that I will consider for ALL my future builds.
1.) While the valves were the issue. My REAL problems isn't the failure. Its really about how everything was handled. If you have an issue, you take steps to diagnose (documentation/inspection) and then you own up to things...this goes for Mast and Trick Titanium (not Trick Flow). These kinds of things should never land on the backs of customers. Its usually bad long-term business. Mast treatment of me was just that, a business decision. Time will tell if this approach will benefit them in the long run. I have spoken with a few others that have had similar issues/similar recourse/varying degrees of damage.... I regret that this is becoming a "****" on Mast post, because that wasn't really the original intent. I just wanted to relay the facts and collect more data points before deciding what I wanted to do next. Maybe the best that I can hope for is to save someone else from making a similar "mistake".
2.) The valves were the faulty part. I see alot of comments about inspecting parts. When there is a metalurgic failure, I'm not sure any amount of pre-inspection would have avoided this. The whole setup only had a few dyno runs and <1000 or so break-in miles, so not sure if an inspection would/would not have uncovered any issues or would have warranted additional inspection. If I had had a chance to put the car on the track and the failure occurred...I wouldn't have uttered a word. I understand completely, Pay to Pay to Play. According to Chris @ Mast, Trick Titanium refused to return any of their calls asking about the issue. Read whatever you want into that... My read is "pass the buck"...but still acknowledging that there was an issue.
Note: Valve mfr was Trick Titanium.
3.) Value of Premium heads...I have had 4 sets of heads on this car:
- Stock LSA (LSA Supercharger, mild mods).... 520rwhp
- Trick Flow (LSA Supercharger, Stage 2 Cam)... ~680rwhp,..Mid 10's in the 1.4
- Rick Crawford worked LS9 (LSA Supercharger, Rick Crawford Spec Cam, built block)...9.98@139.xx (full weight 4,500lb+, with full size Weld 17" Rear, 18x8" Frt)
- Mast (TT 427)...times coming soon
Point: My car has run the fastest with ported LS9 heads...I noticed this going in and thought more than a little bit about keeping them, but given the move to TT/Larger CI and higher hp/boost levels, I opted to go with a Mast 6 bolt head/block. 20/20 hindsight, I am wondering about the value of high dollar heads on a blown setup, especially if their customer service/support is lacking. Some are going after that last nth of hp, but most just want to go racing and have fun. I'm in the latter camp. After my experience with the LS9 heads, thinking a set of GMPP 6 Bolt LS3's with SS valves wouldn't have been just as good for half the price with the added bonus of having gone thru some level of an OEM level engineering validation process. I am ok with paying a premium, as long as I get something for my money. I didn't even get dinner after the treatment I got from Mast (jk! ;-0 )
Another data point: I just "finished" a Single Turbo LT4 C7 Z06 build...Cammotion Cam and Stock Untouched LT4 heads. While the track will be the ultimate test, that car spit out over 50 4 digit dyno pulls with 3 different turbos at 15-17lbs, all within 40hp of each other for a given turbo combo. Again...Stock, untouched heads! Even if a set of high dollar heads were avail, would it be worth it, given what you do or don't get for the extra $$'s. This is something that I will consider for ALL my future builds.
Last edited by EarlH; 09-21-2018 at 08:19 AM.
09-21-2018, 04:51 PM
#129
TECH Apprentice
Well, it's a big bummer to go through this, but at the end of the day you will see this project through and that car should put such a smile on your face you will put all this behind you.
Thank you for letting us know the issues - all too often vendors get to hide their crap in the shadows as customers are leveraged to be silent. Nothing against Mast, I' speaking generically. Even the best engine builders have the odd failure, but hopefully stand by their work when it happens.
I'm beginning to agree with you - stick with OEM castings (perhaps CNC mildly worked) unless you want to go full gorilla and go pro (there's Nascar style and billet heads etc that make anything sold off the shelf look slow) - in which case you get race pro heads prepared with the kind of care and precision a Nascar or Pro Stock head gets. That'd cost more than 5k lolz
Thank you for letting us know the issues - all too often vendors get to hide their crap in the shadows as customers are leveraged to be silent. Nothing against Mast, I' speaking generically. Even the best engine builders have the odd failure, but hopefully stand by their work when it happens.
I'm beginning to agree with you - stick with OEM castings (perhaps CNC mildly worked) unless you want to go full gorilla and go pro (there's Nascar style and billet heads etc that make anything sold off the shelf look slow) - in which case you get race pro heads prepared with the kind of care and precision a Nascar or Pro Stock head gets. That'd cost more than 5k lolz
09-24-2018, 10:35 AM
#130
TECH Addict
So ,, the one item I can't find in this long saga,, the heads were supposedly "mis cast" What does that mean ?
There are plenty of off the shelf CNC heads out there, so trying to figure out the cost benefit of taking a set of "seconds?"
Also wondering how that affected the install?
Cheers
There are plenty of off the shelf CNC heads out there, so trying to figure out the cost benefit of taking a set of "seconds?"
Also wondering how that affected the install?
Cheers
10-10-2018, 09:19 PM
#132
TECH Senior Member
10-11-2018, 09:49 AM
#133
Haven't decided yet. Deciding to focus on positive things at this point...I've been focusing on getting the V track ready while finishing the build on my Single Turbo Z06. I hope to finally get to the track with the V this week. I'll be running one of the 1st 6L90 T-Brakes, so can finally build some boost at the line.
10-12-2018, 05:22 AM
#135
Wow, this really sux as i eagerly await my Mast Black label 285cc ls7 heads. 5k worth orderd back in July. I hope im not ending up with crap. I showed my local engine builder this thread, he said no worries as he disassembles all heads before building the motor. In my case a RHS 427 LS7 for my 1st gen Nova. He says over the years, he s found and caught issues before with corrupt parts etc. Even from the best of manufacturers. Much easier to order new parts now than try n prove what happend after a catastrophic failure! It sux more builders do not do this
10-12-2018, 08:47 AM
#136
Hindsight being 20/20...I think that that is the conclusion that I am coming to. I didn't get anything to justify the premium or the wait.
RE:...guys saying that they are going to have their guys INSPECT the heads before install. LOL...guys act as though my guys didn't and just threw them on. My failure was likely metallurgical. No amount of pre-install inspection would have uncovered the issue. Maybe if the valve covers were removed just prior to failure, it would have shown something. Fact is, I had my guys look things over ~ 2 weeks prior to planned track outing/failure. It looked ok. Mind you, their had only been dyno tune and break-in miles up to that point.
RE:...guys saying that they are going to have their guys INSPECT the heads before install. LOL...guys act as though my guys didn't and just threw them on. My failure was likely metallurgical. No amount of pre-install inspection would have uncovered the issue. Maybe if the valve covers were removed just prior to failure, it would have shown something. Fact is, I had my guys look things over ~ 2 weeks prior to planned track outing/failure. It looked ok. Mind you, their had only been dyno tune and break-in miles up to that point.
10-12-2018, 04:10 PM
#137
TECH Apprentice
You are right. How many engine builders on this forum can put one hand on heart and the other in the air and say they'd have sent the valves to a NDT (non destructive testing) facility for a full scan? Or... checked the valves pre first start up under a microscope to see if the grains go the right way with no other obvious flaws, and then, after dyno pulls - take them all out again and test with ultrasonic equipment to se if anything changed. Only the top pro teams have the gear and budget for that.
You had a dud run of valves, but the valves would have passed a visual inspection no doubt. Not engine builders fault - manufacturers warranty should have covered the flaw in their machining/metallurgy
You had a dud run of valves, but the valves would have passed a visual inspection no doubt. Not engine builders fault - manufacturers warranty should have covered the flaw in their machining/metallurgy
10-12-2018, 07:26 PM
#139
Thats good to hear because the money saved is allowing me to focus on other areas of the car. Im looking to jump on the huron speed V3 kit when they bring it back up in December.
10-13-2018, 04:23 PM
#140
If Mast's reputation has been s**t on then that's on them. I don't feel sorry for them. $5000 isn't much compared to ruining a businesses reputation.
Make things right by a customer and you'll make the loss back. Screw over customers and eventually it bites you in the butt.
Make things right by a customer and you'll make the loss back. Screw over customers and eventually it bites you in the butt.