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The Pontiacolypse

 
Old 02-24-2018, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by blk00ss
Dem EGR ports
Yeah lol. Them old school pace setters! But they are 1-7/8 x 32 primaries so I figure upgrading will do nothing but cause work
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:39 PM
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I never knew that pace setters made anything other than the 13/4” headers! I loved mine. Made like 485 through them with a ls6 intake and stage III 317’s back in the day.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:00 AM
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Yup. They're not the best, but I'd bet I could swap in some ARH or Kooks and likely not notice the difference so I never bothered
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Old 02-28-2018, 01:30 PM
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Sweet build Darth!! Very interested to see what she does with the final top end
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Old 03-03-2018, 10:49 PM
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Thanks!!

Well of all the stupid things -- I had ASSumed the LS2 fuel rail would work for LS7 intake. No dice. If it were not for that I would be 2-3 hours from starting the car with an additional 3-4 hours to make it roadworthy.

It took about three hours to get the engine cradle back where it belonged. Then I spent four hours routing and rerouting the harness to clean it up.

Oh well. So close and yet so far....
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Old 03-04-2018, 06:09 AM
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FAST makes injector spacers.... perhaps those could help you in getting the fuel rail to work.
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Old 03-04-2018, 09:33 AM
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I wish. Its the offset that's wrong. I would need to bend the tubing to reorient the injectors.

Probably time to just do billet injector rails. They pretty much universal
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Old 03-04-2018, 04:18 PM
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I would give Fuel Injection Connection a call. They had A solution
For my need to use top side Injector adapters due to using factory
LS3 Rails on my FAST LS3 Intake because the fast fuel rails leaked,
shop it was at waiting to tune had 3 fast fuel rails leak in
One week! all 3 had been installed by different shop/mechanics,
I will never use fast rails or adapters and the fast
adapters are at the bottom of Injector and will likely affect
spray pattern as well.
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Old 03-04-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE210 View Post
I would give Fuel Injection Connection a call. They had A solution
For my need to use top side Injector adapters due to using factory
LS3 Rails on my FAST LS3 Intake because the fast fuel rails leaked,
shop it was at waiting to tune had 3 fast fuel rails leak in
One week! all 3 had been installed by different shop/mechanics,
I will never use fast rails or adapters and the fast
adapters are at the bottom of Injector and will likely affect
spray pattern as well.
Yeah the Stock rail will support more power than most people will ever have too. Iím just using a stock one
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
Thanks!!

Well of all the stupid things -- I had ASSumed the LS2 fuel rail would work for LS7 intake. No dice. If it were not for that I would be 2-3 hours from starting the car with an additional 3-4 hours to make it roadworthy.

It took about three hours to get the engine cradle back where it belonged. Then I spent four hours routing and rerouting the harness to clean it up.

Oh well. So close and yet so far....
Awesome build and enjoying following it.

D'oh, I had asked about that a couple weeks back - putting an LS7 MSD on my 454 build and figured I could just use an LS3(LS2) rails - but was told on here the injector angles were different, so ordered up an LS7 rail from GMPD and that led me to use LS3/7 style short injectors.
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:56 AM
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I think at this point I'm going to give FIC a call on injectors. I'm pretty sure my 346 injectors (42lb) have met their match. I was going to use the holley universal billet fuel rail, since later on I'm going to go ITB anyway. I'm going to need the adaptability.

Really, the real reason it's so frustrating is I travel all week, so I work ont he weekend. So a delay is a week-long delay until I get back home. This week, I actually stay home, so If I can get the rails in, I can get it running.

OK, enough crying.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
I think at this point I'm going to give FIC a call on injectors. I'm pretty sure my 346 injectors (42lb) have met their match. I was going to use the holley universal billet fuel rail, since later on I'm going to go ITB anyway. I'm going to need the adaptability.

Really, the real reason it's so frustrating is I travel all week, so I work ont he weekend. So a delay is a week-long delay until I get back home. This week, I actually stay home, so If I can get the rails in, I can get it running.

OK, enough crying.

So hopefully by the end of the week lol
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lazerlemonta View Post

So hopefully by the end of the week lol
Yeah yeah yeah..... I am hopeful at least to start the car this weekend. Pretty sure the fuel rail was the last thing that'll go wrong. As to driving, it'll just be waiting on the steering gear to arrive.

I was admitedly crying like a bitch yesterday and saturday when I had to stop working on the car to dig up and replumb sprinkler lines that cracked during our harsh Sonoran Desert "Winter".
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:12 PM
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Sucks that you won't be able to get it going until you get the new rails. I just used my stock LS3 rail, short 60 pounders (@ 43.5) which are actually 78 at 4 bar, and the FAST spacers on a FAST 102. I've had no problems with leaks or anything. The O-rings seal it up pretty good, and if anything, they give the fuel a little more time to atomize on it's way to the cylinder, kind of like the old high rise setups. At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it lol.

I got mine started yesterday btw. Drove it today, working the tune. Got some wicked cam surge and a few issues getting it to idle and play nice. So far so good though. Weird part is I was able to add up to 15 degrees with no effect on knock, at all (part throttle areas, around 2k). This cam is pretty fun already lol. It's a whole new animal now.

I would post a video of it, but I know you would rather hear your own running... Or maybe, since our cams are very close, same as cubes, you would like to hear it to get a bit of a preview of what yours might sound like. It's lopey as all hell. It's a damn popcorn machine, so much more than that TSP stage IV.

Had someone ask me what the LSA was, and he guessed like 109 or 110. I told him 114. He didn't quite believe it. Then I told him how much actual overlap it has. LSA isn't a huge factor when you are close to or over 300* seat to seat lol. It has 93* overlap.

Also, if you're interested, I set my EOIT normal table to 6.3, or about 368* (translated from formula), and there isn't a lot of smell. I thought I might have to go farther, like up to the 390* mark, maybe even 400, but it seems pretty good there. Smell isn't nearly as bad as it once was.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopperDoc View Post
Sucks that you won't be able to get it going until you get the new rails. I just used my stock LS3 rail, short 60 pounders (@ 43.5) which are actually 78 at 4 bar, and the FAST spacers on a FAST 102. I've had no problems with leaks or anything. The O-rings seal it up pretty good, and if anything, they give the fuel a little more time to atomize on it's way to the cylinder, kind of like the old high rise setups. At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it lol.
It'll be OK. Just another delay. Even if the rail comes in today, I don't have the steering gear yet, but I could at least get the idle tuned in. I ran 42's (50-ish at our pressures) on my 346, which were enough, but barely. By the math, I need 60's for gasoline and 80's if I decide to go with E85 (I won't)

I got mine started yesterday btw. Drove it today, working the tune. Got some wicked cam surge and a few issues getting it to idle and play nice. So far so good though. Weird part is I was able to add up to 15 degrees with no effect on knock, at all (part throttle areas, around 2k). This cam is pretty fun already lol. It's a whole new animal now.
I'm actually a bit surprised your getting a lot of cam surge. I find reduced timing helps more with cam surge than advanced timing does. are you maf or SD? if you've answered that before, forgive me re-asking.

I would post a video of it, but I know you would rather hear your own running... Or maybe, since our cams are very close, same as cubes, you would like to hear it to get a bit of a preview of what yours might sound like. It's lopey as all hell. It's a damn popcorn machine, so much more than that TSP stage IV.
I was actually expecting it to be a bit tame. This is interesting indeed. Now, running a vacuum pump, it will tame it some. Cold start on LLSR will sometimes be like that, because your durations are bigger until the motor warms up and you gain some lash.

Had someone ask me what the LSA was, and he guessed like 109 or 110. I told him 114. He didn't quite believe it. Then I told him how much actual overlap it has. LSA isn't a huge factor when you are close to or over 300* seat to seat lol. It has 93* overlap.

Also, if you're interested, I set my EOIT normal table to 6.3, or about 368* (translated from formula), and there isn't a lot of smell. I thought I might have to go farther, like up to the 390* mark, maybe even 400, but it seems pretty good there. Smell isn't nearly as bad as it once was.
I run my EOIT at 5.8, but I also bumped the boundary up to 7, so we are basically in the same ballpark. You can go too far and not get good mixture, although with the bigger motor, it might tolerate more. Something else, since I'm LLSR, my ramp rates are faster and assymetrical. Very fast off the seat, so I run beefy pushrods to compensate. I'm "only" 72 degrees seat to seat overlap and 18 degrees 050 to 050 overlap after the engine warms up.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:02 AM
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Well hopefully you get that steering gear in pretty soon then. I'm looking forward to hearing this thing, if you'd be so kind to post a video for us.

In other news, I got mine idling really good now, and my VE is almost perfect up through 4K. I'm SD for now, have a MAF, but I need to finish my VE table. The surge was coming more from fuel than anything. I leaned it out at idle, about 10-12% above and it purrs real nice. I totally agree with reducing timing to eliminate surge... my max spark on my last cam was low 30's, at best (decel areas) and WOT was set at 23 (still is for now). It was in the mid teens at idle.

It ran great that way, no surge. Got this new cam going and new compression and found the engine was ******* pretty bad through the torque band, so I started adding timing in the scanner to see what it liked. Got past 10 degrees and I was like WTF? It didn't make sense with the increased compression. So then I built a new spark table, as conservative as possible and plugged that in. It's easily 10 degrees more than it was in the middle and top left corner of the table. I didn't mess with WOT yet. Not until I'm sure my VE is on the right track, which I work slowly, usually about a week to get good averages.

My one concern now is my knock sensors seem too insensitive (lol, jerks). So I just dropped the values back to the very low 98 settings, and I'll see what happens there. I really don't want to chance anything trying to push this thing too hard too early. If I have to push them back up (to stock 0411) for noise, but for now I just want to see them read more than .2 or .3 on rare occasions. I never thought I would say that, but this thing doesn't show enough knock... false or not lol.

Then I'll see for real if these new spark settings are too much or not. It's just too loud for me to hear it if it is happening, especially with the valvetrain. It feels good for now though.

And yeah, 6.3 with stock boundary is about as far as I'll push EOIT. I added in another .1 and it ran pretty crappy. So I'm happy with that setting. It doesn't smell too bad, not at all like it used to back in the day with just a GM hot cam.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopperDoc View Post
Well hopefully you get that steering gear in pretty soon then. I'm looking forward to hearing this thing, if you'd be so kind to post a video for us.
I will absolutely get a video posted. In fact, I don't NEED the steering gear to start it up and work on idle, etc, so unless there's a delivery failure, I plan to get it started up this weekend

In other news, I got mine idling really good now, and my VE is almost perfect up through 4K. I'm SD for now, have a MAF, but I need to finish my VE table. The surge was coming more from fuel than anything. I leaned it out at idle, about 10-12% above and it purrs real nice. I totally agree with reducing timing to eliminate surge... my max spark on my last cam was low 30's, at best (decel areas) and WOT was set at 23 (still is for now). It was in the mid teens at idle.

It ran great that way, no surge. Got this new cam going and new compression and found the engine was ******* pretty bad through the torque band, so I started adding timing in the scanner to see what it liked. Got past 10 degrees and I was like WTF? It didn't make sense with the increased compression. So then I built a new spark table, as conservative as possible and plugged that in. It's easily 10 degrees more than it was in the middle and top left corner of the table. I didn't mess with WOT yet. Not until I'm sure my VE is on the right track, which I work slowly, usually about a week to get good averages.
I was going to tell you much of the above if you said "SD", but you figured it out already. The maf greatly stabilizes fueling calcs. When I went SD, it seemed to like being leaned out both for idle quality and return to idle. My 346 actually like LESS idle spark. I set it for 18 and increased base idle air, which gave it much greater stability. Idle was about 16:1 on the WB. But in SD, if you don't have fueling right, you'll chase your *** for sure. Mine also liked open loop much better than closed loop. The motor was so throttle responsive that the proportional fueling would cause surge as it tried to trim itself.

My one concern now is my knock sensors seem too insensitive (lol, jerks). So I just dropped the values back to the very low 98 settings, and I'll see what happens there. I really don't want to chance anything trying to push this thing too hard too early. If I have to push them back up (to stock 0411) for noise, but for now I just want to see them read more than .2 or .3 on rare occasions. I never thought I would say that, but this thing doesn't show enough knock... false or not lol.

Then I'll see for real if these new spark settings are too much or not. It's just too loud for me to hear it if it is happening, especially with the valvetrain. It feels good for now though.

And yeah, 6.3 with stock boundary is about as far as I'll push EOIT. I added in another .1 and it ran pretty crappy. So I'm happy with that setting. It doesn't smell too bad, not at all like it used to back in the day with just a GM hot cam.
Funny you say that about 6.3. My car liked 6.24 and hated 6.29 with boundary at 6.5. Then, I went back and set boundary higher and dropped to 5.8, and it liked that better than anything I did with just the normal table.

Regarding knock, you may want to pull a spark plug or two to at least validate you aren't getting any knock (or are). What about your valvetrain so you think makes it loud? On the 346, the LLSR valvetrain was quieter than the hydraulic valvetrain.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:30 PM
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Funny you say that about 6.3. My car liked 6.24 and hated 6.29 with boundary at 6.5. Then, I went back and set boundary higher and dropped to 5.8, and it liked that better than anything I did with just the normal table.

Regarding knock, you may want to pull a spark plug or two to at least validate you aren't getting any knock (or are). What about your valvetrain so you think makes it loud? On the 346, the LLSR valvetrain was quieter than the hydraulic valvetrain.
I have been trying to get my MAF to play nice with this setup. I haven't had much time to really dial it in, but so far, it idles pretty well, but when I put it in drive, it starts surging a bit, and it is pretty random. I pulled some of the plugs today and they looked very nice. Just golden brown, slight carbon. Not black, or overly white, or anything out of the ordinary. So it hasn't been detonating as far as I can tell. With the new settings, it seems to detect more, so I'm starting to trust the sensors again. Still haven't seen anything over 0.35* though. When I do see it though, I'll drop that spot a degree anyway, if there are more than one cells showing anything at all. It's probably false, but it isn't hurting me to take 1 degree.

As for the noise, it seems pretty normal for a big cam. I have hydraulic lifters in there, and you can just hear it doing it's thing like a sewing machine. It's not super loud. I have Jesel rockers and PRC springs. I set the lash to 90* per comp cams instructions for their short travel racing lifters, and I will set it again after a few more hundred miles once everything is broke in, and to verify everything is still in working order.

I just changed the oil, as in I'm still technically in my long break-in window, probably around 1000 miles right now total on the motor. I change the oil with the cheap stuff every few hundred miles at this point. I'll start using better oil later when I'm sure all the metal is worn in enough to where it stops showing up on the plug. Still have a decent amount there of the black sludge, which is just natural for break in. Wouldn't even know if there wasn't a magnet there lol. I'm sure better oil will help the noise. Plus I'm sure some of it is coming from my vacuum pump, and maybe some from my new fabricated cold air intake. At the end of the day, I'm not to concerned so long as I'm not hearing popping, knocking, rattling, or clanking. If it's not related to one of those noises, then I'm happy.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:41 PM
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*Pontiapocalypse
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:59 AM
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Started her up about hour and s half ago. Did not run it very long, cause I still got connections to make. But she started like all I did was change the oil. Very happy. I can not post vids from phone for some reason. App will not upload. But it was actually tamer than I expected on the idle.
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