Ls2 408 stroker
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Can anyone provide any insight on how a Low lash solid roller drives/behaves compared to a hydraulic roller?
If you have the same duration for example when you account for lash of course with the solid roller, what would be the idle difference, responsiveness, and revving?
Is there also a sound difference?
Will the solid roller be faster if everything else is exactly the same in the combination?
If you have the same duration for example when you account for lash of course with the solid roller, what would be the idle difference, responsiveness, and revving?
Is there also a sound difference?
Will the solid roller be faster if everything else is exactly the same in the combination?
So, if I understand the question, assuming equivalent specs at 050, allowing for lash (approx 5 degree change in duration):
Behavior. On cold start, the LLSR will act like a bigger cam because there is no lash at cold start. Kip will tell you to start the car and let it bark until it warms up and gains some lash. Me, I let it run until the temp comes off the bottom of the gauge and drive it. Just don't get on it until it reaches temp. Once it is warm you cannot tell the difference between the two.
Noise. Exhaust note is crisper. Valvetrain noise I find tends to be quieter. The ones I have built AND the ones I have consulted on or assisted with have been quieter than the hydraulic systems they replaced. I have yet to have someone come back to me and say they are ripping this noisy POS out and going back to hydraulics. Not that it never happens, but not that I have been connected with.
Idle. Warmed up you will not notice a difference. But you can tweak it to your tastes. I have one I ran with the valves preloaded .003. It increased seat to seat duration but really does not affect 050 duration. It did idle like a bigger cam. Next one I do will have 002 cold lash to see if I can use the lash to control manifold vacuum and mechanically tame a larger cam. To a degree.
Performance. The valve will follow the cam more perfectly. No pumping losses. The motor will like to rev. At high rpm there is a distinct bite for like of a better word. As if it WANTS to rev. Very crisp and clean rpm. Valvetrain is very stable. You cannot compress the lifters. So you run heavy pushrods and enough spring to control the valve, rocker, and spring mass and you are good to go. I do not have any side by side or overlays of identical hydro vs LLSR, because when I went LLSR it was a much bigger cam. But it moved the peak torque rpm up 400 rpm from 4800 to 5200, and consequently shifted power peak as well. This shows as a loss at low rpm, but I see it as a shift in torque, not a loss. When I first installed that cam and took it for a spin, it was scary. I mean adrenaline pumping scary. I had never felt anything like it. The only other times I felt a seat of the pants performance jump like that was when I put the Mamo heads on that car the first time and when I first drove the 428 in the car. It really felt like a whole different animal.
For some reference numbers, my 227/235 cam went as high as it could at 496. That was still in stock gear and stock ten bolt. My LLSR was 237/245 - 232/240 after lash. Went from 496-518, however that was through a 9-inch with 4.30 gear.
Now before you jump on that as THE FIX - my build at that point was absolutely cam limited. There was nothing else I was going to do to get more out of it. That is where it benefited. It opened it up to breathe more. If you decide you are going to jump, please check out thunderstrucks very excellent LLSR installation guide for using stock rockers. You do not need adjustable rockers to run LLSR.
Behavior. On cold start, the LLSR will act like a bigger cam because there is no lash at cold start. Kip will tell you to start the car and let it bark until it warms up and gains some lash. Me, I let it run until the temp comes off the bottom of the gauge and drive it. Just don't get on it until it reaches temp. Once it is warm you cannot tell the difference between the two.
Noise. Exhaust note is crisper. Valvetrain noise I find tends to be quieter. The ones I have built AND the ones I have consulted on or assisted with have been quieter than the hydraulic systems they replaced. I have yet to have someone come back to me and say they are ripping this noisy POS out and going back to hydraulics. Not that it never happens, but not that I have been connected with.
Idle. Warmed up you will not notice a difference. But you can tweak it to your tastes. I have one I ran with the valves preloaded .003. It increased seat to seat duration but really does not affect 050 duration. It did idle like a bigger cam. Next one I do will have 002 cold lash to see if I can use the lash to control manifold vacuum and mechanically tame a larger cam. To a degree.
Performance. The valve will follow the cam more perfectly. No pumping losses. The motor will like to rev. At high rpm there is a distinct bite for like of a better word. As if it WANTS to rev. Very crisp and clean rpm. Valvetrain is very stable. You cannot compress the lifters. So you run heavy pushrods and enough spring to control the valve, rocker, and spring mass and you are good to go. I do not have any side by side or overlays of identical hydro vs LLSR, because when I went LLSR it was a much bigger cam. But it moved the peak torque rpm up 400 rpm from 4800 to 5200, and consequently shifted power peak as well. This shows as a loss at low rpm, but I see it as a shift in torque, not a loss. When I first installed that cam and took it for a spin, it was scary. I mean adrenaline pumping scary. I had never felt anything like it. The only other times I felt a seat of the pants performance jump like that was when I put the Mamo heads on that car the first time and when I first drove the 428 in the car. It really felt like a whole different animal.
For some reference numbers, my 227/235 cam went as high as it could at 496. That was still in stock gear and stock ten bolt. My LLSR was 237/245 - 232/240 after lash. Went from 496-518, however that was through a 9-inch with 4.30 gear.
Now before you jump on that as THE FIX - my build at that point was absolutely cam limited. There was nothing else I was going to do to get more out of it. That is where it benefited. It opened it up to breathe more. If you decide you are going to jump, please check out thunderstrucks very excellent LLSR installation guide for using stock rockers. You do not need adjustable rockers to run LLSR.
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From: VA
Good point.
I'm going to see him personally next Thursday.
All my contact has been via text.
I will update this thread once I have new information.
As stated cylinders were checked. There are no dead cylinders.
This was done at the beginning.
Even Patrick Guerra said it is those yella terra rockers and that camshaft I have which are most likely causing these issues.
And also having too much lift. He also says, the valvetrain setup I have is more suited to a LLSR and would work really well with it as it's far more stable.
I am also the one that decided to go the higher ratio and heavier rocker but I was advised against it and still went ahead anyway.
Also the camshaft, was never intended for a higher ratio.
I called up the camshaft place a while ago and told them my issue and their first response was to take off those **** heavy rockers, go back to a stock ratio GM rocker or get the ultra lite pro YT in 1.7.
This will resolve the issue I am told.
Spring choice is good though.
I will see what happens.
Most likely by the looks of things I will probably end up going the LLSR as it's the easiest way of doing it.
But we will see.
I can always sell the other parts.
I'm going to see him personally next Thursday.
All my contact has been via text.
I will update this thread once I have new information.
As stated cylinders were checked. There are no dead cylinders.
This was done at the beginning.
Even Patrick Guerra said it is those yella terra rockers and that camshaft I have which are most likely causing these issues.
And also having too much lift. He also says, the valvetrain setup I have is more suited to a LLSR and would work really well with it as it's far more stable.
I am also the one that decided to go the higher ratio and heavier rocker but I was advised against it and still went ahead anyway.
Also the camshaft, was never intended for a higher ratio.
I called up the camshaft place a while ago and told them my issue and their first response was to take off those **** heavy rockers, go back to a stock ratio GM rocker or get the ultra lite pro YT in 1.7.
This will resolve the issue I am told.
Spring choice is good though.
I will see what happens.
Most likely by the looks of things I will probably end up going the LLSR as it's the easiest way of doing it.
But we will see.
I can always sell the other parts.
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I was also told my nose dive with my stock cam was from my 1.8 yella terra rockers. Me being me i did a test on the dyno back to back and guess what...... It was not the rockers or push rods (Darth and I swapped them prior to this test) but the stock cam itself. With the valve springs you had the rockers were stable and the dyno does not look like it was loosing valve control up top.
The issue may be the camshaft.
I do have an earlier dyno sheet when the springs were at 165lb of seat pressure and the power was nose diving at 6300rpm.
Once seat pressure was increased it was hanging on better but as I have stated it is not right for a 242/257 113LSA crow camshaft to make less power than a 236/244 114LSA cam motion camshaft.
Then again the cam motion more than likely has a more stable and superior lobe design. It made very good power for what it was.
Will see what happens after I see my tuner on Thursday.
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So, if I understand the question, assuming equivalent specs at 050, allowing for lash (approx 5 degree change in duration):
Behavior. On cold start, the LLSR will act like a bigger cam because there is no lash at cold start. Kip will tell you to start the car and let it bark until it warms up and gains some lash. Me, I let it run until the temp comes off the bottom of the gauge and drive it. Just don't get on it until it reaches temp. Once it is warm you cannot tell the difference between the two.
Noise. Exhaust note is crisper. Valvetrain noise I find tends to be quieter. The ones I have built AND the ones I have consulted on or assisted with have been quieter than the hydraulic systems they replaced. I have yet to have someone come back to me and say they are ripping this noisy POS out and going back to hydraulics. Not that it never happens, but not that I have been connected with.
Idle. Warmed up you will not notice a difference. But you can tweak it to your tastes. I have one I ran with the valves preloaded .003. It increased seat to seat duration but really does not affect 050 duration. It did idle like a bigger cam. Next one I do will have 002 cold lash to see if I can use the lash to control manifold vacuum and mechanically tame a larger cam. To a degree.
Performance. The valve will follow the cam more perfectly. No pumping losses. The motor will like to rev. At high rpm there is a distinct bite for like of a better word. As if it WANTS to rev. Very crisp and clean rpm. Valvetrain is very stable. You cannot compress the lifters. So you run heavy pushrods and enough spring to control the valve, rocker, and spring mass and you are good to go. I do not have any side by side or overlays of identical hydro vs LLSR, because when I went LLSR it was a much bigger cam. But it moved the peak torque rpm up 400 rpm from 4800 to 5200, and consequently shifted power peak as well. This shows as a loss at low rpm, but I see it as a shift in torque, not a loss. When I first installed that cam and took it for a spin, it was scary. I mean adrenaline pumping scary. I had never felt anything like it. The only other times I felt a seat of the pants performance jump like that was when I put the Mamo heads on that car the first time and when I first drove the 428 in the car. It really felt like a whole different animal.
For some reference numbers, my 227/235 cam went as high as it could at 496. That was still in stock gear and stock ten bolt. My LLSR was 237/245 - 232/240 after lash. Went from 496-518, however that was through a 9-inch with 4.30 gear.
Now before you jump on that as THE FIX - my build at that point was absolutely cam limited. There was nothing else I was going to do to get more out of it. That is where it benefited. It opened it up to breathe more. If you decide you are going to jump, please check out thunderstrucks very excellent LLSR installation guide for using stock rockers. You do not need adjustable rockers to run LLSR.
Behavior. On cold start, the LLSR will act like a bigger cam because there is no lash at cold start. Kip will tell you to start the car and let it bark until it warms up and gains some lash. Me, I let it run until the temp comes off the bottom of the gauge and drive it. Just don't get on it until it reaches temp. Once it is warm you cannot tell the difference between the two.
Noise. Exhaust note is crisper. Valvetrain noise I find tends to be quieter. The ones I have built AND the ones I have consulted on or assisted with have been quieter than the hydraulic systems they replaced. I have yet to have someone come back to me and say they are ripping this noisy POS out and going back to hydraulics. Not that it never happens, but not that I have been connected with.
Idle. Warmed up you will not notice a difference. But you can tweak it to your tastes. I have one I ran with the valves preloaded .003. It increased seat to seat duration but really does not affect 050 duration. It did idle like a bigger cam. Next one I do will have 002 cold lash to see if I can use the lash to control manifold vacuum and mechanically tame a larger cam. To a degree.
Performance. The valve will follow the cam more perfectly. No pumping losses. The motor will like to rev. At high rpm there is a distinct bite for like of a better word. As if it WANTS to rev. Very crisp and clean rpm. Valvetrain is very stable. You cannot compress the lifters. So you run heavy pushrods and enough spring to control the valve, rocker, and spring mass and you are good to go. I do not have any side by side or overlays of identical hydro vs LLSR, because when I went LLSR it was a much bigger cam. But it moved the peak torque rpm up 400 rpm from 4800 to 5200, and consequently shifted power peak as well. This shows as a loss at low rpm, but I see it as a shift in torque, not a loss. When I first installed that cam and took it for a spin, it was scary. I mean adrenaline pumping scary. I had never felt anything like it. The only other times I felt a seat of the pants performance jump like that was when I put the Mamo heads on that car the first time and when I first drove the 428 in the car. It really felt like a whole different animal.
For some reference numbers, my 227/235 cam went as high as it could at 496. That was still in stock gear and stock ten bolt. My LLSR was 237/245 - 232/240 after lash. Went from 496-518, however that was through a 9-inch with 4.30 gear.
Now before you jump on that as THE FIX - my build at that point was absolutely cam limited. There was nothing else I was going to do to get more out of it. That is where it benefited. It opened it up to breathe more. If you decide you are going to jump, please check out thunderstrucks very excellent LLSR installation guide for using stock rockers. You do not need adjustable rockers to run LLSR.
Sounds like it would suit me well.
Best part is I will know it will work with my current valve-train setup too and will be far more stable.
I already have adjustable rockers so I will just use them.
I have been looking at cam motion's street king LLSR camshaft so I have emailed to see if I can get it made to have a total of .670 lift with 1:8.1 rockers
My llsr is very docile yet is stable to 8000 rpm with yella terra adjustable ls3 rocker arms and pac209x springs shimmed to within. 050 of coil bind.
If you dont want to spin over 7200,probably .not worth it to go solid. If you do and already have the rocker arms, it's worth it.
If you dont want to spin over 7200,probably .not worth it to go solid. If you do and already have the rocker arms, it's worth it.
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My llsr is very docile yet is stable to 8000 rpm with yella terra adjustable ls3 rocker arms and pac209x springs shimmed to within. 050 of coil bind.
If you dont want to spin over 7200,probably .not worth it to go solid. If you do and already have the rocker arms, it's worth it.
If you dont want to spin over 7200,probably .not worth it to go solid. If you do and already have the rocker arms, it's worth it.
It's starting to make more sense.
I was thinking of getting another hydraulic roller but from cam motion this time designed for my rocker ratio with a bit less lift.
Probably the cheapest way to go.
Will see.
I can't wait to finally get this damn combo running right.
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Verdad Gallardo It will be a lot cheaper to stay hydraulic but mainly because you would need to pull heads to swap lifters for LLSR. If you were building from scratch and had not bought anything the costs would be comparable.
I remember all that stuff with lasers build when he was *full bolt ons extreme* and the number of discussions a few of us had over was it rockers or fuel or something else. Thing is he made 470 on that stock cam. But the cam was absolutely the limitation so the car responded great to the upgrade.
I do know that cam motion will not let you down.
I remember all that stuff with lasers build when he was *full bolt ons extreme* and the number of discussions a few of us had over was it rockers or fuel or something else. Thing is he made 470 on that stock cam. But the cam was absolutely the limitation so the car responded great to the upgrade.
I do know that cam motion will not let you down.
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It will be a lot cheaper to stay hydraulic but mainly because you would need to pull heads to swap lifters for LLSR. If you were building from scratch and had not bought anything the costs would be comparable.
I remember all that stuff with lasers build when he was *full bolt ons extreme* and the number of discussions a few of us had over was it rockers or fuel or something else. Thing is he made 470 on that stock cam. But the cam was absolutely the limitation so the car responded great to the upgrade.
I do know that cam motion will not let you down.
I remember all that stuff with lasers build when he was *full bolt ons extreme* and the number of discussions a few of us had over was it rockers or fuel or something else. Thing is he made 470 on that stock cam. But the cam was absolutely the limitation so the car responded great to the upgrade.
I do know that cam motion will not let you down.
Will update this thread Thursday.
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What do you think of this grind for my setup?
Grind number LL248/375-LL260/365-113+4.
Lift with 1.8 ratio intake .675" / exhaust .657".
Duration at .050" intake 248 / exhaust 260.
Would that work out to be a 244//256 in a hydraulic?
Grind number LL248/375-LL260/365-113+4.
Lift with 1.8 ratio intake .675" / exhaust .657".
Duration at .050" intake 248 / exhaust 260.
Would that work out to be a 244//256 in a hydraulic?
I don't think a 1.8:1 ratio rocker is the problem... it's the heavier rocker that's the problem. I've always said the LS3 architecture benefits greatly from added lift. The heads flow significantly more at .700 than .600, and it would be like grinding cams for .500 lift for the cathedral LS heads. You have to take advantage of the architecture.
I think we talked about doing the ultralite version and going with less spring, didn't we? It handles 420 or 440lbs open pressure or the upgraded Mamo version does 480 with the 10mm bolt? Something like that.
The issue is whether or not a hydraulic lifter could withstand 500lbs. And while there doesn't appear to be valve float, you're running into harmonics issues at high RPM it seems. Spintron testing your combo would show some things, I think.
But the setup is definitely good for an LLR. So, that might be the right way to go.
However, I would be interested to see what your converter is doing. Converters can get soggy and eat a ton of power. Especially if you blow through them or rev out higher than they want to effectively couple.
I think we talked about doing the ultralite version and going with less spring, didn't we? It handles 420 or 440lbs open pressure or the upgraded Mamo version does 480 with the 10mm bolt? Something like that.
The issue is whether or not a hydraulic lifter could withstand 500lbs. And while there doesn't appear to be valve float, you're running into harmonics issues at high RPM it seems. Spintron testing your combo would show some things, I think.
But the setup is definitely good for an LLR. So, that might be the right way to go.
However, I would be interested to see what your converter is doing. Converters can get soggy and eat a ton of power. Especially if you blow through them or rev out higher than they want to effectively couple.
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I don't think a 1.8:1 ratio rocker is the problem... it's the heavier rocker that's the problem. I've always said the LS3 architecture benefits greatly from added lift. The heads flow significantly more at .700 than .600, and it would be like grinding cams for .500 lift for the cathedral LS heads. You have to take advantage of the architecture.
I think we talked about doing the ultralite version and going with less spring, didn't we? It handles 420 or 440lbs open pressure or the upgraded Mamo version does 480 with the 10mm bolt? Something like that.
The issue is whether or not a hydraulic lifter could withstand 500lbs. And while there doesn't appear to be valve float, you're running into harmonics issues at high RPM it seems. Spintron testing your combo would show some things, I think.
But the setup is definitely good for an LLR. So, that might be the right way to go.
However, I would be interested to see what your converter is doing. Converters can get soggy and eat a ton of power. Especially if you blow through them or rev out higher than they want to effectively couple.
I think we talked about doing the ultralite version and going with less spring, didn't we? It handles 420 or 440lbs open pressure or the upgraded Mamo version does 480 with the 10mm bolt? Something like that.
The issue is whether or not a hydraulic lifter could withstand 500lbs. And while there doesn't appear to be valve float, you're running into harmonics issues at high RPM it seems. Spintron testing your combo would show some things, I think.
But the setup is definitely good for an LLR. So, that might be the right way to go.
However, I would be interested to see what your converter is doing. Converters can get soggy and eat a ton of power. Especially if you blow through them or rev out higher than they want to effectively couple.
Yes I know the rockers are heavy.
I was thinking of changing the rockers to the Ultra lite pros which can handle up to 480lb of open pressure but then I would need to change springs too because the pac 1209x have 500lb of open pressure.
Do you think with the llsr camshaft, valvetrain stability and harmonics would be working together well?
9 Second Club
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From: VA
Thanks for your input.
Yes I know the rockers are heavy.
I was thinking of changing the rockers to the Ultra lite pros which can handle up to 480lb of open pressure but then I would need to change springs too because the pac 1209x have 500lb of open pressure.
Do you think with the llsr camshaft, valvetrain stability and harmonics would be working together well?
Yes I know the rockers are heavy.
I was thinking of changing the rockers to the Ultra lite pros which can handle up to 480lb of open pressure but then I would need to change springs too because the pac 1209x have 500lb of open pressure.
Do you think with the llsr camshaft, valvetrain stability and harmonics would be working together well?
Well, it's either springs and rockers or cam. You have to decide what you want. LLR is really a no-brainer when it comes to NA power.
The Comp EHI/EHX marine lobes are high-lift and very stable. Might be worth it if you were trying a different cam...
The Comp EHI/EHX marine lobes are high-lift and very stable. Might be worth it if you were trying a different cam...
Contact yella terra I know they rate them to 480 but have been used for well into the 500 range. These things were developed for the racing series in Australia and trickled down to the average person. They likely have some options more suited to extreme duty as well. They are almost "local" to you
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The rocker you enquired about are the same ones as mine except I have the 6654 version which have the 10mm bolts.
These are the pro street version.
They also have the ultra lite which can withstand up to 425lb of open pressure
Then you have the ultra lite pro which can withstand up to 480lb of open pressure.
I was thinking of going back to the ultra lite pro but I don't feel comfortable pushing these over their limit running a 1209x spring.
These are the pro street version.
They also have the ultra lite which can withstand up to 425lb of open pressure
Then you have the ultra lite pro which can withstand up to 480lb of open pressure.
I was thinking of going back to the ultra lite pro but I don't feel comfortable pushing these over their limit running a 1209x spring.