School me on big cubic inch LSx builds
10-14-2020, 05:19 AM
#41
I m making more calls today and doing my part. I just enjoy the discussion on ls1tech just as much as talking to different companies. I like the real world feedback n difference of opinions on here. Theres no doubt some people on here that have just as much knowledge as some of these engine builders. Due to their real world experiances.
10-14-2020, 05:28 AM
#42
Guys,
Regarding stroke vs sleeve length and reliability etc. a couple of things come to mind
While the worst situation is an LS2 or LS3 block converted to a stroker (4" or larger arm), there are hundreds....thousands in fact out in the real world running fine and some that have quite a few miles on the odometer.
Is this a good build plan for a performance engine you want to see 50,000 miles or more.....certainly not. The OEM blocks have short cylinder sleeves and the added stroke means your pulling the piston further out of the hole at BDC (by the difference in the stroke....about 3/8 of an inch with a 4" arm), so you will get more piston rock and wear at BDC....and this is exaggerated even more in 4.100 stroke stock block combo which I typically stay away from.
The way you set up the engine (mainly regarding paying attention to piston to wall clearance) will have alot to do with the expected service life of the build before oil consumption and power loss creep in from worn piston skirts etc. but a properly built combo like Im discussing here will run well for quite a few miles (20-35K I would estimate based on the combo and RPM typically seen). That might be 10 years of ownership in a part time hot rod.
When you get into most aftermarket blocks (and ductile iron sleeved OEM blocks), you get a big benefit of a much longer cylinder sleeve.....5.750 - 5.800 long versus 5.500 - 5.550 for an OEM stock block.
Soooo.....now with a 4" arm your only pulling the piston another 1/8" out of the hole at BDC and even a 4.125 stroke crank is only pulling the piston out of the sleeve an additional 1/4".....that really helps better support the piston at BDC so less rock equals less wear and better longevity with probably a slight gain in power seen from reduced internal friction (from less piston rock at the enormous speeds the crank is spinning)
Most enthusiasts put alot less miles on their hot rods than their regular cars....I know some of you daily them and even that is fine with OEM blocks with stroker cranks but know going in this isn't a build your planning on OEM type life expectancy....that's just not realistic and it would mean a hell of alot of spring freshen ups also.....LOL
No real voodoo going on here....pay attention to clearances and keeping them on the tighter side of nominal and your 4" arm in your factory sleeved LS2 or LS3 block will run hard a long time but if you had more budget a sleeved block gets you a larger bore.....a larger motor and a longer life expectancy due to the longer sleeve length it provides and better support of the piston at BDC
Hope this helps
-Tony
Regarding stroke vs sleeve length and reliability etc. a couple of things come to mind
While the worst situation is an LS2 or LS3 block converted to a stroker (4" or larger arm), there are hundreds....thousands in fact out in the real world running fine and some that have quite a few miles on the odometer.
Is this a good build plan for a performance engine you want to see 50,000 miles or more.....certainly not. The OEM blocks have short cylinder sleeves and the added stroke means your pulling the piston further out of the hole at BDC (by the difference in the stroke....about 3/8 of an inch with a 4" arm), so you will get more piston rock and wear at BDC....and this is exaggerated even more in 4.100 stroke stock block combo which I typically stay away from.
The way you set up the engine (mainly regarding paying attention to piston to wall clearance) will have alot to do with the expected service life of the build before oil consumption and power loss creep in from worn piston skirts etc. but a properly built combo like Im discussing here will run well for quite a few miles (20-35K I would estimate based on the combo and RPM typically seen). That might be 10 years of ownership in a part time hot rod.
When you get into most aftermarket blocks (and ductile iron sleeved OEM blocks), you get a big benefit of a much longer cylinder sleeve.....5.750 - 5.800 long versus 5.500 - 5.550 for an OEM stock block.
Soooo.....now with a 4" arm your only pulling the piston another 1/8" out of the hole at BDC and even a 4.125 stroke crank is only pulling the piston out of the sleeve an additional 1/4".....that really helps better support the piston at BDC so less rock equals less wear and better longevity with probably a slight gain in power seen from reduced internal friction (from less piston rock at the enormous speeds the crank is spinning)
Most enthusiasts put alot less miles on their hot rods than their regular cars....I know some of you daily them and even that is fine with OEM blocks with stroker cranks but know going in this isn't a build your planning on OEM type life expectancy....that's just not realistic and it would mean a hell of alot of spring freshen ups also.....LOL
No real voodoo going on here....pay attention to clearances and keeping them on the tighter side of nominal and your 4" arm in your factory sleeved LS2 or LS3 block will run hard a long time but if you had more budget a sleeved block gets you a larger bore.....a larger motor and a longer life expectancy due to the longer sleeve length it provides and better support of the piston at BDC
Hope this helps
-Tony
Great post Tony.
10-14-2020, 05:39 AM
#43
Ok, so silly question, what are the capabilities of the standard deck RHS block as it sits? Sleeves?
One thing for sure is, im not getting anything built by anyone unless they have the ability to engine dyno it. Im so convinced my motor was eff'd the day we started it. I know it wouldnt have survived a dyno. In other words, if it isnt running right, you tear it down n fix it! If it dyno s significantly lower than what was promised, you tear it down and fix it! For this kinda money, im pulling out all stops and calling bs on anything and everything before it even leaves the shop. I ve been watchn blame get placed and passed along from components, to tunes, to my ebay key blank that started the car, since June. No more! It wasted A LOT of time and energy. I bought multiple parts twice, tested some of the dumbest theories I ve ever heard of(who remembers my parallel vs. series fuel rail thread), had to make multiple phone calls to "professionals" whom I literally listened while they contradicted themselves...all this for a head n cam 427ci? Bull Shyt!!! And the whole time, I knew in my heart, instinctively, something else was wrong. Im tired and embarrassed. Im about 20min away from still possibly sayn screw this motor and just ordering a new long block from scratch. I ll be driving my car sooner and confidently if I can decide on a long block. Than on a rainy day, if I feel like it, i ll have a look see about this one on my engine stand covered in shop rags...if I feel like it and motivated in proper. Until than, I mite just let it sit there! Im doing my research and trying to make a good decision first.
The only good thing that has come out of all of this, I learned a lot via my long summer of troubleshooting and chasing my tail. So again, I present to ya my dilemma, new motor, old motor, who cares...More cubes or not? And why? If so, 434ci, 440ci, 454ci? What do you like about it? What do you dislike about it? Im 100% staying with an aluminum block and my Carbon fiber XR ls7 crossram intake. Im not opose to keeping/ditching my heads or anything else if it makes sense. 720-730hp is my goal with pump gas, hydraulic roller
750hp-even better. Dont forget im paying big hp tax thru my 4l80e and fab 9". 550rwhp is meh, ok...600rwhp, now we re talking.
One thing for sure is, im not getting anything built by anyone unless they have the ability to engine dyno it. Im so convinced my motor was eff'd the day we started it. I know it wouldnt have survived a dyno. In other words, if it isnt running right, you tear it down n fix it! If it dyno s significantly lower than what was promised, you tear it down and fix it! For this kinda money, im pulling out all stops and calling bs on anything and everything before it even leaves the shop. I ve been watchn blame get placed and passed along from components, to tunes, to my ebay key blank that started the car, since June. No more! It wasted A LOT of time and energy. I bought multiple parts twice, tested some of the dumbest theories I ve ever heard of(who remembers my parallel vs. series fuel rail thread), had to make multiple phone calls to "professionals" whom I literally listened while they contradicted themselves...all this for a head n cam 427ci? Bull Shyt!!! And the whole time, I knew in my heart, instinctively, something else was wrong. Im tired and embarrassed. Im about 20min away from still possibly sayn screw this motor and just ordering a new long block from scratch. I ll be driving my car sooner and confidently if I can decide on a long block. Than on a rainy day, if I feel like it, i ll have a look see about this one on my engine stand covered in shop rags...if I feel like it and motivated in proper. Until than, I mite just let it sit there! Im doing my research and trying to make a good decision first.
The only good thing that has come out of all of this, I learned a lot via my long summer of troubleshooting and chasing my tail. So again, I present to ya my dilemma, new motor, old motor, who cares...More cubes or not? And why? If so, 434ci, 440ci, 454ci? What do you like about it? What do you dislike about it? Im 100% staying with an aluminum block and my Carbon fiber XR ls7 crossram intake. Im not opose to keeping/ditching my heads or anything else if it makes sense. 720-730hp is my goal with pump gas, hydraulic roller
750hp-even better. Dont forget im paying big hp tax thru my 4l80e and fab 9". 550rwhp is meh, ok...600rwhp, now we re talking.
What does everyone else think?
10-14-2020, 05:42 AM
#44
I beat the **** out of a 436ci stroker (LS6 block) on the street for 12 years. 11.3:1 cr and 4.125 stroke x 4.1 bore. I couldn't imagine a modern day, modern heads, intake, TB, cam, etc....and 454ci-460ci. With a 300 shot.
FUN.
FUN.
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rkupon1 (10-14-2020)
10-14-2020, 07:39 AM
#46
TECH Enthusiast
The sleeves on the RHS block are nice and long at like 5.9 inches or so a stroker motor should be OK. There tall deck has a 6.3 inch sleeve I think. I would try to locate the water leak if you could it might be a bad head gasket. Maybe get one of those pressure testers pull the spark plugs out see if water is coming in the cylinder. Pull a valve cover see if it is leaking into the pushrod area and down into crankcase. How much water did you find? Did you retorque the head bolts or studs when you put the heads on? I had an issue once and it was because 1 or 2 bolts were not torqued down right (assembly lube was not used that time and or the guy that did it missed 2 in the final sequence - my leak I think it was going into pushrod area) and it leaked tightened it up and it was OK after that. If you used the ARP torque lube that stuff is good and the chance of needing a retorqued is greatly reduced. You may not want to deal with all this but it might help engine builder figure out problem and address the part (like cracked head or block) or the problem (just the head gasket). Maybe just pull valve covers and just see if all the head bolts/studs are torqued so you can check that off.
10-14-2020, 09:08 AM
#47
I m making more calls today and doing my part. I just enjoy the discussion on ls1tech just as much as talking to different companies. I like the real world feedback n difference of opinions on here. Theres no doubt some people on here that have just as much knowledge as some of these engine builders. Due to their real world experiances.
I'm sure they can accommodate your request to have it put on an engine dyno as well. Give them a call and talk to Anthony.
10-14-2020, 12:15 PM
#49
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Che70velle (10-14-2020)
10-15-2020, 05:57 AM
#51
My hr and fifteen minute call with HPR did not go well yesterday. Anthony and Eric were both very friendly and professional. Its just doesnt seem like I have the goods to work with. They did say that my heads and block are plenty to work with for a 454ci build. But bcuz of my intake and offsite dyno logistics(Efi University), I dont think they are even a consideration for a new build. Is rpm the only way to build a 750hp motor? With my other constraints? Im gunna call up Chad Golen again today and ask him why the big push for 427ci. Why so wrong for wanting a 454ci or 440ci? If im limited on rpm range(12.5" runners) bcuz of my intake, surely more cubes must be the answer. Is a 454 architecture by design really that terrible? Hpr had a reasonable approach, design goals start with the intake of choice than they work backwards from there. He said my heads will still be plenty for a 454 build and put them in a better effeciency range with more cubes. Ok, so than can we go with some cam, duration, and lift to make up the difference for lack of rpms? They were vague here. And literally id be 90th in line if they had my motor today. Itd be next summer b4 i saw an engine dyno results motor. Im gunna call up Chad again today and politely lean on him alil more. Im tired of these nerds thinkn something is "plenty" for the street. If they used driveability, reliability, and longevity as their arguements, than I could understand. But no one has yet. Gunna also call up AES this afternoon to discuss.
10-15-2020, 06:10 AM
#52
I would be careful of anyone trying to force you to something other than what you want without a very solid justification. Also be wary of anyone saying its going to take months and months to build it. That was my 1 frustration with Erik, but he is awfully good. Cubes or rpm are required to make a certain power number, and I know the default response to this.....but the other option is boost. If you want big block type torque better than any big cube NA setup, a twin screw will do all you want any more. No large FMIC, no piping required, and you can literally make 800ftlbs at 2500 rpms if you wanted to. All neatly tucked on top of the motor and under your hood and it would look killer too. It simplifies your motor setup so much and likely shortens your time frame to get it running again. Just an alternate option to consider.
10-15-2020, 06:40 AM
#54
Agreed on the FI approach. That being said I would heat soak like a mother in the summer heat here in FL. The car ran fine but it sapped the power. You could always throw some meth at it though to help.
Tony Mamo has been known to build engines. I would have had him build mine but he was backed up at the time.
I see a busy engine builder with a good back log as a good thing. Usually they are in high demand for their services and they may take longer because of the job they do. However, it is frustrating to say the least when it comes to waiting. From the time I got my top end to the time I was driving my car it was close to 10 months. Longest 10 months of my life.
OP, if you were closer I would let you drive mine and see how you like it.
Tony Mamo has been known to build engines. I would have had him build mine but he was backed up at the time.
I see a busy engine builder with a good back log as a good thing. Usually they are in high demand for their services and they may take longer because of the job they do. However, it is frustrating to say the least when it comes to waiting. From the time I got my top end to the time I was driving my car it was close to 10 months. Longest 10 months of my life.
OP, if you were closer I would let you drive mine and see how you like it.
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rkupon1 (10-15-2020)
10-15-2020, 06:41 AM
#55
Ddnspider, I cant even fit a thin **** heat exchanger. FI is all but out because of packaging constraints and the lack of a way to get rid of my intake mani. Or id be Whippled up already. Plus id have to throw my intake in the garbage, and redo a bunch of other stuff to accommodate it. Hp is just a number, im sure no matter what I choose, it ll be fine. Im just not given in so quick n easy like I did last time. I wanna get some different ideas n build options together n choose. Given my current parts n constraints, that window is narrowing quickly. It is what it is. Its not like Im losing here with a new 427ci set up. Part of me wants to go full ham on a Darth designed build. Finding a competent engine builder/shop to execute another mans plan mite be harder still. Also, thru my discussions with HPR yesterday, im sick to my stomach considering what mite actually be wrong with my block. The RHS block has caveats. And if its not assembled correctly, I could be in deeper than a HG. I really wont know til I ship it off. Custom RHS shop table anyone? I really got the impression my parts choices werent well thought out by design, wieghts, etc. HPR says it sounds like a mish mosh of shyt thrown together n more than likely what got me here. All 427ci NA builds are not created equal.
10-15-2020, 06:57 AM
#56
You should really just pick an engine builder and send your stuff to them and get moving. You put too much weight onto what a bunch of random, faceless, people on the internet say.
Find an expert builder, send them your engine, let them tear it down and evaluate everything, then work with what the best options are with what you have that is usable.
Find an expert builder, send them your engine, let them tear it down and evaluate everything, then work with what the best options are with what you have that is usable.
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tblentrprz (10-15-2020)
10-15-2020, 07:09 AM
#57
Ddnspider, I cant even fit a thin **** heat exchanger. FI is all but out because of packaging constraints and the lack of a way to get rid of my intake mani. Or id be Whippled up already. Plus id have to throw my intake in the garbage, and redo a bunch of other stuff to accommodate it. Hp is just a number, im sure no matter what I choose, it ll be fine. Im just not given in so quick n easy like I did last time. I wanna get some different ideas n build options together n choose. Given my current parts n constraints, that window is narrowing quickly. It is what it is. Its not like Im losing here with a new 427ci set up. Part of me wants to go full ham on a Darth designed build. Finding a competent engine builder/shop to execute another mans plan mite be harder still. Also, thru my discussions with HPR yesterday, im sick to my stomach considering what mite actually be wrong with my block. The RHS block has caveats. And if its not assembled correctly, I could be in deeper than a HG. I really wont know til I ship it off. Custom RHS shop table anyone? I really got the impression my parts choices werent well thought out by design, wieghts, etc. HPR says it sounds like a mish mosh of shyt thrown together n more than likely what got me here. All 427ci NA builds are not created equal.
EDIT....stupid facebook link won't work. Below is the idea.
I'm assuming you aren't married to your radiator? Get a radiator that has a separate heat exchanger passage built into the core similar to a trans cooler, but instead for the supercharger heat exchanger setup....now you have room. Fast forward to 9min mark. 93 octane.
Add that to this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...tor-month.html
You're set.
Last edited by ddnspider; 10-15-2020 at 10:41 AM.
10-15-2020, 08:39 AM
#58
My hr and fifteen minute call with HPR did not go well yesterday. Anthony and Eric were both very friendly and professional. Its just doesnt seem like I have the goods to work with. They did say that my heads and block are plenty to work with for a 454ci build. But bcuz of my intake and offsite dyno logistics(Efi University), I dont think they are even a consideration for a new build. Is rpm the only way to build a 750hp motor? With my other constraints? Im gunna call up Chad Golen again today and ask him why the big push for 427ci. Why so wrong for wanting a 454ci or 440ci? If im limited on rpm range(12.5" runners) bcuz of my intake, surely more cubes must be the answer. Is a 454 architecture by design really that terrible? Hpr had a reasonable approach, design goals start with the intake of choice than they work backwards from there. He said my heads will still be plenty for a 454 build and put them in a better effeciency range with more cubes. Ok, so than can we go with some cam, duration, and lift to make up the difference for lack of rpms? They were vague here. And literally id be 90th in line if they had my motor today. Itd be next summer b4 i saw an engine dyno results motor. Im gunna call up Chad again today and politely lean on him alil more. Im tired of these nerds thinkn something is "plenty" for the street. If they used driveability, reliability, and longevity as their arguements, than I could understand. But no one has yet. Gunna also call up AES this afternoon to discuss.
*told you this Months ago or maybe a yr ago. Eric R. and Zach said the exact same thing Erik said.*
So maybe bigger would be better and would help with you goal/compression -91 octane Requirements.
🤔 I'd just offset the crank & get another set of pistons. Or just get a CCW crank for 1grand with pistons. Erik builds HP in his sleep and what was said is Known from testing. Zach the Thief tested that intake Several times with Judd when he was @ SAM.
Intake runner length creates what is sometimes referred to as a Bottle Neck.
Last edited by Corona; 10-15-2020 at 08:53 AM.
10-15-2020, 10:01 AM
#59
[QUOTE=Launch;20296618]Must it be aluminum block? Doubt one of these would have any of the issues of the rhs blocks
]https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/455086-non-sponsor-soliciting-policy-clarification.html
My builder loves the blocks.
]https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/455086-non-sponsor-soliciting-policy-clarification.html
My builder loves the blocks.
Last edited by Che70velle; 10-15-2020 at 02:28 PM.
