CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

well your bunker mentality isn't doing you any favors. I merely posted what I observed and never claimed any of it to be 100% fact. Just what I heard or my opinion. I think if you averaged(my opinion) the amount of $$$ the greedy CEO's take(yes that's a problem too) compared to the relative lack contribution to their benefits packages that the UAW, that GM in turn has to pickup, I think you'd see that the Health insurance would be the WAY bigger factor.

IMO unions have long since served their purpose in American history. In the 1800's and through the mid 1900's they did help protect the american worker. Both monitarily and more importantly in their personal safety helping to institute relative safe working environments. However, the union mentality has morphed into something of "entitlement" and an "us against" them lines of thought. I'm not saying Union workers don't work hard, I think there are good and bad eggs in every bunch. The acute problem is now we are in a global market/economy weather you like it or not. The airlines were just a tip of the iceberg as far as corporate trouble with unions go, and I feel that in the next 10-20 years either large concessions will need to be made or Unions will be broken.

Quite simply, you cannot have someone with a HS degree that can be replaced readily with someone else in a matter of weeks making $60k a year. I'm sorry, but it's just not going to continue.

As far as your argument that I wish my neighbors/friends/family bad luck if I experience it, that's a load of crap. My argument was down the lines that the UAW is being unrealistic in their expectation that GM will continue to pickup the ever increasing cost of healthcare w/out sharing the expense.

DanO

10 foot pole ready....

Nope.. not touching it

OldSchoolSS

You hit the nail right on the head. Unions have no purpose of being around anymore. All they do is hurt the good workers and help the bad. If you are a good worker like you say you’re company will have no problem giving you the pay you deserve. BTW if you are only just making by on 60k a year tell your wife to get a job. If she has a job then you really need to learn how to budget your money. My parents made due with less than that, put two kids through college, and built a $500,000 house which will be paid off in less than 7 years. They are by no means just making by.

People with bachelors, masters, and PHD's get there degrees for job security and there desire to succeed. They don't expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter like a lot of union guys do. The place I did my internship at had union guys that could barely read making 10k more a year than salaried engineers that put in 50-60 hours a week compared to the union guys 40 hours a week. If that isn't B.S. then I don't know what is. As far as the statement where I can take my degree and shove it we’ll see who is sitting in the better position when in 10 years the unions fall apart because nobody will be able to afford to pay them anymore. The idea of outsourcing your job has probably came up more than a few times in meetings already this year at your company. Who knows plans may already be in the works. There is a lot that you guys and your unions don’t know. The place I last worked at had plans of shipping all the union labor to china, and the stuff the didn’t trust to china to the south where labor is cheap and they don’t need a union.

Don’t get me wrong there are a lot of union workers that are great and knowledgeable guys that deserve to get paid every cent they are. But for every one like that there are 20 that should have there *** kicked to the curb because they are worthless piles of crap.

Cop Car

iTrader: (14)

the unions goals have been completed, now they are simply driving away jobs, how can a toyota plant pay their workers more and still make more money? the union is the answer to that delima. to get a union worker fired takes more stress than its worth, even if they arent doing their jobs. to fire a non union worker who isnt doing their job.. well thats a no brainer and a stress reducer.

executives are even more over paid, i dont see how these people can take millions from the corporation and then say we are cutting jobs because we cant make enough money. im sure that there are pleanty of people who would be well qualified, who would do the jobs of the upper GM managment for 90% less.

GM needs to have a FWD small car, and then RWD small, mid and full sized cars. make a 2 door small, mid and full sized car, and then a 4 door small, mid, full sized cars. all with 3800, 3800SC, I6, 4.4 Northstar. 4.4 SC Northstar, LS2, and LS7 motors available. then we would see the 1960s all over again... throw in some AWD options and it would be amazing.

hop over to HSV.com.au sometime... you will be very jealous, what they have in Australia is what they should have had here all along... stupid Americans and stupid American companys giving stupid Americans what they want.

NXSLT1

This thread is freakin hilarious! I was thinking about going back to school and getting a degree but if I'm gonna turn that damn stupid and be as pompous as a few of you seem to be then I'll just stay a lowly factory worker. Get out of yer office and get in the real world please. Waaaaaay too much money is wasted at the management level, at least where I work. How dare you look down on me and say I shouldn't make as much money as you!

CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

salary/income should be market based, meaning how hard is it to find someone to do your job equally or better than you. The reason people with college degrees should make more in SOME cases(i'll explain later) is that they have invested in many cases tens of thousands of dollars into their educations in order to obtain higher level jobs. When someone devotes a significant portion of time towards and education and eventually lands a job, there is most cases a higher level of knowledge needed for that job and not as easily replaced, and hence should command a premium in pay in turn determined by how marketable that person is. As well, there are certain blue collar type jobs that should command premium wages. You can't very well plug the average joe into an electricians uniform and expect him to rewire a hotel. That's a trade that takes time to learn, and carries a certain hazzard on the job. However, many factory workers have dilluded themselves into thinking they are the only person that can do that job, and if they leave the company will crumble. You may think me an a$$hole for saying this, but most are EASILY replaceable. I think alot of us in life think similarly so I'm not saying this is a character flaw or your a bad person for doing so, just stating that's the way we tend to think.

Now before the lynch party forms, lemme explain further. There are crap managers, crappy educated and lazy white collar workers, just as there are blue collar workers. They should be kicked to the curb just the same. All this political correctness and workers protection bs has done for us(and I'm not lambasting Unions here as this is a total problem in US workforce), is insulate the crappy worker from harm in many cases. Unless your a white male who is not gay, not fat, not an alcoholic or have another other disorder that can be construed as a prejudicial factor in firing you, your pretty safe in your job provided you don't come in stoned, or do something grossly negligent, OR the company isn't in financial trouble(*which company nowadays isn't). This in the past has caused aphathy in the workforce, and a lack of "drive" in many Americans. The people who still have a drive to succeed often will at whatever level they are at bluecollar or white.

That said, Unions handicap the truely gifted workers and further insulate the incompitent. There is a union tire maker in area where plant/union guys who have this drive, openly complain thier co-workers are getting stoned and drunk in parking lot on their lunch hours. Can the company do anything about it? Nope! Can't even drug test them :O. And when that SOB gets hurt on the job b/c he sticks his hand in a machine, guess who pays for it? Yep, the company and in turn you and I by higher tire prices. Yet that same guy, will be complaining to me in my office about how management squanders money etc... It's that us against them mentality that the workforce can't get over. There is no company pride, no true desire for the company to succeed. "What has the company done for me lately?" That's the wrong question to ask! Should be what have I done for the company lately!

Hamilton Sunstrand, an aerospace company which has a large factory in Rockford IL recently(past 1-2 yrs) underwent a Union strike b/c workers objected to increased insurnace premiums(to closer match salaried employee contributions but still not as much) and decrease raises. Most workers were making $65-75k/yr running machines, hitting cycle-start. Sure there is a skill in setting up a machine and mic'ing part etc... But they objected to the company demands and went on strike assuming the company would crumble w/out them. End result...... Game, set, match Sunstrand. Company Engineers and salary employees ran the machines after regular working hours and on weekends. People with little to no training running the machines prior picked it up in weeks and had production at least acceptable to the company as a whole. After several months of news stories of how the company was starving their workers on the news, the Union gave up b/c they knew the public wasn't on their side and the company could function without them. Concessions were made and now everybody is back to work.

Weather you like what I have to say or not, I'm not the bad guy! I'm just calling it as I see it. Do some exec's deserve to be fired? Hell yeah! Does GM waste $$$ Definately! Do UAW workers make more than they deserve? I would think that would be determined by how hard you work and how marketable you are. Some do, probably most don't. However, as we have entered a Global Economy which Unions have still not realized; people should account for reality when approaching the issue of their reimbursement for work provided. If I was a union worker on a line at GM, I'm 1000% sure I'd feel the same way. However, that still doesn't change the fact that if GM or any factory can move a job and make more $$$ they will end up doing it in the end. Manufacturing in America is seriously threatened by cheap labor in developing countries. The argument that if all jobs are shipped overseas, there will be nobody to buy products here, is somewhat valid. But what many of you don't realize is that companies are looking out for thier best interest NOW and in the coming few years. As intelligent as some people are in management are(and sometimes NOT) often times they are "putting out fires" as we call it. Meaning they are trying to get by now, save their own jobs/asses and trying to find ways to keep the company in the black NOW and in the coming years. However, the argument is also made in management that they are planning for the future and that they see America as not a manufacturing country but as a tech and service industry. That were future jobs are predicted to be, and yes that means higher education. Like it or not, that's the way I see it.

Don't flame me b/c of my opinion, I have no direct controll over your lifestyle. I'm not out to rid America of Union labor, I just get sick of hearing all the bitching and complaining from Union workers about how they have it so rough. I buy American when I can, however I won't pay 4-5x as much for a similar or inferior product to do so. I'm almost positive anyone else would do the same, save for a few.

NOSjohn

iTrader: (9)

I want a new Z06. (keeping on topic)

On the other note (off topic), I used to have at least 15 friends in tech or tech support. Guess what, now they are working whatever job they can find, so now I have ZERO friends in tech or tech support. Jobs are going by way of the bird flying across the ocean ...and QUICK.

Let's go off on another tangent: We need to get fresh blood in the political hot seats who are blue collar american workers and who care about America. These previous lawyers and people who came to political office with silver spoons in their mouths are crumbling the US block by unemployed block.

NXSLT1

Become a lowly union worker and then tell me you feel that same way. You must be in management somewhere because that's the same BS I hear pretty much everyday. There are reasons beyond your comprehension of why union workers have the "us against them mentality", because that's exactly how it is most of the time.

Sure there are lazy union workers just like there are lazy (read stupid and clueless) salary guys and they both should be fired for being such, the union is far from perfect and there are some lazy asses that get protected that shoulsn't but it really really pisses me of when someone starts talking a bunch of BS about union workers as a whole are lazy and cost the company too much money when they don't have a clue. Where I work at you are rewarded for being a good worker, you know how? By having more work put on you. Yippee thanks company let me go out here and bust my *** even more so you can run me in the ground til I break. Been there done that no thank you!! It's alot of BS like that that builds up and gives the union guys that mentality. I could tell you story after story of how the company just "loves" their employees.

About 3 years ago our contract expired and of course the company was bitching and moaning about "oh we are going broke, we gotta cut cost or we're going under". They also threatened us and said if you don't accept our first offer we will send this new line to somewhere else, if you do accept it we will have the new line going strong by 2005. Here it is 2005 over half way gone and they just now started working on getting the new line running but at first they backed out on a signed contract and almost didn't put the new line in. Just a few months after we signed the new contract the CEO of the company I work for got a 50 million dollar bonus PLUS 50 million in stock options. PLEASE tell me of any human being on this earth that deserves to be paid that much money! On this same contract they basically fired everyone with less than three years service that was layed off at the time and then started hiring people at 7.70 an hour. (I hired in at 9.45 an hour 8 years prior to this!) You got yer time in at 60 days and would become an official employee with benefits, guess what they did? They fired them on the 59th day, that went on for quite a while. That was basically a slap in the face to those people they fired who were on lay off. They now have the biggest turnover of new hires and the lowest quality of employee ever. I can go to a convenience store and make 7.70 an hour and even have some kind of benefits! That type of **** happens all the time and as I said I could tell you story after story of why union workers have the mentality they have. Another thing that blows my mind is that there is no need at all for my supervisor to have FOUR bosses. Thank God for six sigma and DFT cause it's gonna save us all!! That company has never ran worse than it is right now because of the educated dumbasses they have runnin the place. They won't listen to us even though we are the ones that get the product out and know what needs to be done. We are just lowly factory workers, we don't nothin but how to shoot a screw.

I don't give a damn if you have a wall full of degrees and yer the most educated dumbass in the world and you make a million a year but don't tell me I shouldn't make the money I make!! By the way, I do good to make 35-40k a year IF I work most every weekend. To the factory workers that are making 50-75k a year, more power to ya!!

SporkLover

iTrader: (2)

The situation is more complicated than saying lets put in someone who cares about american jobs, so they will protect us. As was stated in a previous post, with all of the trading in the world, we have evolved from singular autnomous economies to a global economy. Let's look at the US steel inudstry and the car industry.

US Steel industry has been in some serious trouble for the past few years. Our Steel is typically "dirty" and takes more time and money to process into a usable product, and our labor rates are relatively high. Asian steel is "clean" and takes less time to process, and labor rates are cheap. This typically means that american steel costs more for the same product. Now if you are a car manufacturer where are you going to go for your building material? The cheapest supplier. So we find more and more manufacturers going to asian steel companies, and finding more and more american steel plants in trouble. So their blue blooded represenative concerned for his constituents sees their plant is in trouble, and lobbys congress to levy a Tariff on foriegn steel... now there is a Tariff on the cheap steel. What does this mean? It means any US Made product that used the cheaper steel now has to pay more for it.... and that gets passed on to the consumers. Higher prices have an inverse affect on demand of products under certain conditions....translates into less things sold..... introducing a whole slew of different problems to the economy.

Not exactly a global example, but things arent always as simple as "lets keep US jobs here". Companies are trying to stay competitive, especially with the booming asian economies. By tying companies hands behind their backs with things like tariffs, or trying to stop outsourcing.. you may introduce a bigger problem of cutting back a companies ability to compete in a free market, and can ultimately hurt the performance of that company.

We arent exactly Laize Faire anymore..... double edged sword.

CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

you totally mis-interpret my post
btw I have worked as a union laborer when I was younger. Have seen the good and bad of it. I'm not in management, but in a service industry. I don't begrudge you making a fair living(and in fact you might be underpaid at your wage depending on what you do and how hard you work). I think anyone who doesn't directly own the company and get's a 50million dollar bonus while at the same time is laying people off is a travesity. My point is that someone with a HS diploma making 60-75k a year should not be bitching and complaining about having to deal with the real life issues the rest of us face in daily life, ie increased health care costs, management bs, job instability, while at the same time hiding under a protectice blanket of Union tolerance to malaise and apathy. If anything the UAW needs to wakeup fast and accept that times are changing. My 2cents. Lady's and Gentleman you've been great! I'm outa here

militant_x

iTrader: (1)

if you make 60-75K with a HS diploma working a job anyone can do, then you are a leech on the american economy.

If you get a 50 million dollar bonus and lay people off (who are not leeches), you are evil.

I want a z06, and you know what? Im looking a few years down, busting my *** in school. All you dumb **** leeches should accept a salary for what you actually do. If the work is hard? guess what, making subs at subway can be hard and stressful, but you chose this life by being a dumb **** and not going to college. Cant support the kids? should have thought about that before you had them, now you MUST bust your *** in three jobs, you have only yourself to blame... because of this your kids will go to college itll all work out. You definetly shouldnt get paid the same as someone who slaves in a high end technical job with lots of responsibility. This isnt just for the lazy union workers. Those of you that work hard STILL dont deserve 75K a year, no way! Pay someone 75K a year and in a few years a robot will do your job.

lot of anger here. I had no idea a factory worker made that much. Feel free to flame me.

noah89

Your parents make less than $60k a year, put 2 kids through college and bought a $500,000 house. I guess you can pull that off if you're eating horse dookey everyday. Get real.

LSONE

iTrader: (1)

uhhhhh....

you said less than 60,000 but I'll use that in this example; and you said less than 7, but I'll use that too.

60,000 * 7 = 420,000

420,000 =/= (college * 2) + 500,000

unless they put down 70,000 + (college * 2) as a down payment, this whole equation =....

your parents lied to you, either about their income or they were in debt.

NXSLT1

You my friend are a jackass. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in there mouth and I can promise you that I can do the job of 3 engineers but I didn't have mommy and daddy paying for my college to get an engineering degree so I had to go to work straight out of high school. Am I jealous if somebody has a degree and makes 100k a year? Hell no, I could care less, just don't tell me I'm worth less than you you lil piece of ****.



To the other guy, if I misunderstood yer post I apologize. If someone in a factory is making 75k a year and bitching then yes they have a serious problem but I know of no factory around here that pays that much unless you work 70-80 hours a week.

militant_x

iTrader: (1)

hey dont take it personally... I'm sure you're posting all these replies during your lunch break.

As for the silver spoon... Work hard in high school and someone will notice, someone will pay for your education... aka scholarship. Not that there is anything wrong with working in a factory... Its just that if you work in a factory, take home a big check of 75K a year and then bitch.. well, then you need to buy the 20 inch tv and not the 50 inch plasma. You can raise a family on much less.

KALEL

I just wanted to read about the supercharged vette?!?!?

Guess I'm a little late...

noah89

Uh oh, I'm a dumb ******* leech. I'm also just an "SC", some college dumb ***. Ooops, I make $150k plus bennies and options. Damn, somebody must have just given it to me 'cause they felt sorry for me. I'll quit tomorrow.

KALEL

Moral of the thread: If you work hard, you should be rewarded. If you're a lazy twinkle berry, you shouldn't. Does this always happen? We all know the answer to this.

A high paying salary doesn't make anyone better than the next man. I say we stop this woman business and drink beers and talk car talk...


Or we can continue whining like "little girly men."

Cop Car

iTrader: (14)

it sucks being 22, and in college, with 0 money. when your friends are making 30k+ a year. but i know that when i graduate im going to have a better job, with more advancement opportunitys than them. the military is paying for my college btw. so not only am i having little income for 4 years, i also get to serve for 4. when i get out ill probably be making 40k a year.. but i love my country and my future

militant_x

iTrader: (1)

so how about that 2008 blown z06?