LS7 Engines and ECM's
10-28-2005, 02:18 PM
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LS7 Engines and PCM's Let's talk some facts here for general reading!
Back up about 18-months, when the LS7 was still speculation to the consumer but a fact at the General --- there was several discussuons about making this engine available as a "Crate Engine". Initially there was no intent for this to happen! Engines would be available only for replacment purposes and you could buy the parts if you wanted to build your own LS7. Me and several GM employees convinced the upper level management that there was real value in releasing this as a production crate engine. Besides, it is increased revenue for the General. Let's do it!
Months later --- the question came up about how will the general consumer make the engine run! GM decides this is not a good idea, too many possibilities for open-ended complaints! LS7 crate engines are canned.
Again, me and basically one other GM employee convince management that you fine folks are very capable of engineering your own "control system" and besides we know the aftermarket will meet the demand. "Stop worrying about how the crate engine will be controlled for generic applications and start working on parts availability!" Our customers are very talented people! The crate engine is on again -- less the electronics.
August 05 -- In an "off-site" LS7 engine project that the General is involved in, there is a glimmer of hope that there might be some form of a wiring harness and controller that could be made available. Some how this word spreads thru several departments and it becomes somewhat public knowledge. After reviewing the situation and a lot of discussion over several weeks, this idea is moved to the "backburner". She's warm, but only luke warm!
Today -- When it is all said and done, about 150-engines will have been released this year. I can assure you that the demand for the engine is no less than the demand for the car. There is not enough supply at this time. We have had offers in excess of $17-grand! Some companies have PO's for several engines and they will pay LIST PRICE! I assure you, being an avid hot rodder we have put the consumer first! We could have easily cancelled orders by consumers and sold their engines to corporations for more money. It is much more fun to read about the excitment and LS7 projects here than to see somebody's million-dollar car that none of us can afford in some issue of a magazine.
Will more engines be available? YES, but not until next year (maybe a few in December). The LS7 crate engine will be in limited production for the year 2006 (as a crate engine to be available from GM Service Parts Operations for general consumption), but it will be available to purchase. I would say that if you are certain that you intend to purchase a LS7 crate engine, then you better find a dealer and get one on order. How many will be available next year? Not an easy answer, but I would bet that it will be less than 200-engines. Nothing would surprise me, if they make 50-pieces available or 275 -- just too many issues here for a clear answer. My gut feeling is between 100 and 175.
The PCM issue --- NOT even on the radar screen at this time. So you can stop talking about a generic GM controller and you can stop waiting on one to be available --- it is not going to happen in the next 18-months!
Aftermarket PCM's? Yes, several aftermarket companies are working now on compatible units. I understand that some of the higher end units that are currently available will work right now! There will be MEFI-4 controllers (as some others have stated) available in the next 45-days (we will have some here at SDPC), both in programmable and non-programmable versions. One company has already addressed the issue of a cable driven TB that will clear the LS7 intake. I think we should have TB's by mid-November (2-weeks away). We do not have pricing on any of this yet, but we will have it by the 10th of November.
Believe it or not, GM has already received numerous complaints about the PCM issue and I assure you some of these complaints are ---- well let's not even go there! My point --- too much negative feedback and all of this is cancelled! Seriously! It is true, a minority can stop what the majority wants! There are a few people (including me) that spoke bravely to the GM brass about "you die-hard LS1 fanatics" and your capabilities to succeed. We told GM, "Just furnish the hard parts and they will make it run!"
Nicky Fowler
Lost in Horsepower!
SDPC
Back up about 18-months, when the LS7 was still speculation to the consumer but a fact at the General --- there was several discussuons about making this engine available as a "Crate Engine". Initially there was no intent for this to happen! Engines would be available only for replacment purposes and you could buy the parts if you wanted to build your own LS7. Me and several GM employees convinced the upper level management that there was real value in releasing this as a production crate engine. Besides, it is increased revenue for the General. Let's do it!
Months later --- the question came up about how will the general consumer make the engine run! GM decides this is not a good idea, too many possibilities for open-ended complaints! LS7 crate engines are canned.
Again, me and basically one other GM employee convince management that you fine folks are very capable of engineering your own "control system" and besides we know the aftermarket will meet the demand. "Stop worrying about how the crate engine will be controlled for generic applications and start working on parts availability!" Our customers are very talented people! The crate engine is on again -- less the electronics.
August 05 -- In an "off-site" LS7 engine project that the General is involved in, there is a glimmer of hope that there might be some form of a wiring harness and controller that could be made available. Some how this word spreads thru several departments and it becomes somewhat public knowledge. After reviewing the situation and a lot of discussion over several weeks, this idea is moved to the "backburner". She's warm, but only luke warm!
Today -- When it is all said and done, about 150-engines will have been released this year. I can assure you that the demand for the engine is no less than the demand for the car. There is not enough supply at this time. We have had offers in excess of $17-grand! Some companies have PO's for several engines and they will pay LIST PRICE! I assure you, being an avid hot rodder we have put the consumer first! We could have easily cancelled orders by consumers and sold their engines to corporations for more money. It is much more fun to read about the excitment and LS7 projects here than to see somebody's million-dollar car that none of us can afford in some issue of a magazine.
Will more engines be available? YES, but not until next year (maybe a few in December). The LS7 crate engine will be in limited production for the year 2006 (as a crate engine to be available from GM Service Parts Operations for general consumption), but it will be available to purchase. I would say that if you are certain that you intend to purchase a LS7 crate engine, then you better find a dealer and get one on order. How many will be available next year? Not an easy answer, but I would bet that it will be less than 200-engines. Nothing would surprise me, if they make 50-pieces available or 275 -- just too many issues here for a clear answer. My gut feeling is between 100 and 175.
The PCM issue --- NOT even on the radar screen at this time. So you can stop talking about a generic GM controller and you can stop waiting on one to be available --- it is not going to happen in the next 18-months!
Aftermarket PCM's? Yes, several aftermarket companies are working now on compatible units. I understand that some of the higher end units that are currently available will work right now! There will be MEFI-4 controllers (as some others have stated) available in the next 45-days (we will have some here at SDPC), both in programmable and non-programmable versions. One company has already addressed the issue of a cable driven TB that will clear the LS7 intake. I think we should have TB's by mid-November (2-weeks away). We do not have pricing on any of this yet, but we will have it by the 10th of November.
Believe it or not, GM has already received numerous complaints about the PCM issue and I assure you some of these complaints are ---- well let's not even go there! My point --- too much negative feedback and all of this is cancelled! Seriously! It is true, a minority can stop what the majority wants! There are a few people (including me) that spoke bravely to the GM brass about "you die-hard LS1 fanatics" and your capabilities to succeed. We told GM, "Just furnish the hard parts and they will make it run!"
Nicky Fowler
Lost in Horsepower!
SDPC
Last edited by parts@sdpc; 10-28-2005 at 02:52 PM.
10-28-2005, 04:24 PM
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Nicky, I, for one, appreciate everything anyone has done to make the LS7 available as a crate engine. I also appreciate the fact that GM cannot now afford to pursue any program that is not profitable in the widest sense. GM might decide to not continue to sell LS7 crate engines if doing so becomes more complicated than simply shipping production engines to an alternate destination. Providing a stand-alone ECU, wiring harness and necessary documentation would require a non-trivial effort and would tend to create a larger after-sale burden. Nevertheless, these engines are dead metal without an ECU. Third-party engine control systems are a poor solution for what I assume to be the largest group of potential LS7 buyers, F-body owners. The main obstacle to employing our old, familiar PCMs appears to be the new 60X crankshaft wheel. It seems to me that the easiest solution for everyone would be for GM to provide crate LS7s with 24X crank wheels. I realize that this would require GM to cobble together an alternate ECU for LS7 testing, but that would be a much smaller task than providing an alternate ECU as a consumer product. Has this been discussed?
Last edited by Gary Z; 10-28-2005 at 04:38 PM.
10-28-2005, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Z
---- The main obstacle to employing our old, familiar PCMs appears to be the new 60X crankshaft wheel. It seems to me that the easiest solution for everyone would be for GM to provide crate LS7s with 24X crank wheels. I realize that this would require GM to cobble together an alternate ECU for LS7 testing, but that would be a much smaller task than providing an alternate ECU as a consumer product. Has this been discussed?
Yes, all kinds of scenarios have been discussed. The problem is GM bureaucracy, GM legal, and GM red tape (about 32-miles long and growing exponentially). Gary, I must say the obvious is always muddy water at GM and some of this is to their defense -- I might add. They really want to think in big numbers --- quantities of 50,000 is too small! And the Wixom plant has it's own set of priorities outside of our request for just a few LS7 engines. Not to say that we can't look forward to great opportunties from the Wixom plant for performance parts, I think we can. But as it stands today, we are just lucky to have the LS7 crate engines in our hands and as we move forward I believe that some of these same situations will be viewed differently and the results will be different in the future.
10-28-2005, 09:15 PM
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Nicky,
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
10-28-2005, 09:31 PM
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After just a couple of days checking around for a solution, there are some available. It's not that big an issue for older car swaps. However, OBD-I/II cars my have some issues where emissions is a concern...especially in CA where the inspection includes visual pass/fail.
In all, I appreciate everything SDPC has done to get the LS7 to my doorstep. It arrived today and is a work of art. Here's a link to some pics.
If I have to use the Delphi MEFI-4B, no problem. Idle quality won't be that great. It won't get the economy of a sequential system. But, it will be just as high on the coolness scale. Perhaps down the road a vendor will come with something sequential and reasonably easy to install. I am pretty certain FAST is working on something now.
Edited to say that my timeframe is not that immediate and I have about 60 days before I need the ECU and harness. There may be some discoveries at SEMA also.
In all, I appreciate everything SDPC has done to get the LS7 to my doorstep. It arrived today and is a work of art. Here's a link to some pics.
If I have to use the Delphi MEFI-4B, no problem. Idle quality won't be that great. It won't get the economy of a sequential system. But, it will be just as high on the coolness scale. Perhaps down the road a vendor will come with something sequential and reasonably easy to install. I am pretty certain FAST is working on something now.
Edited to say that my timeframe is not that immediate and I have about 60 days before I need the ECU and harness. There may be some discoveries at SEMA also.
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10-29-2005, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 427
Nicky,
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
10-29-2005, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 427
Nicky,
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
I need a 58x engine that I can run. The BS3 works on the bench, we just need to hot test. Can you get a 6.2? The 6.2 has the same crank wheel on it, although the cam gear was different.
Kurt
Bill
10-29-2005, 08:40 PM
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The thing we really need to know, is the relationship between the missing teeth and the cam pulse. The "timing" I guess you would call it. The crank wheel has 60 evenly spaced "teeth" with 2 knocked out to make 58X. The relationship is key to knowing when to fire which coil.
Kurt
Kurt
Originally Posted by billreid1@***.net
Why not swap in a 58x wheel in a take out stocker LS1/2/6 motor and test?... this assuming the wheel is available seperately (?).
Bill
Bill
sounds interesting.
10-30-2005, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 427
The thing we really need to know, is the relationship between the missing teeth and the cam pulse. The "timing" I guess you would call it. The crank wheel has 60 evenly spaced "teeth" with 2 knocked out to make 58X. The relationship is key to knowing when to fire which coil.
Kurt
Kurt
I am also assuming the cam sensor located on the LS7 exclusive front cover sends the same type of signal as the LS1/6 (rear) or LS2 (front) sensor.
In the meantime, while 58x compatible computers and tuning software are being developed, would you be against the suggestion of retrofitting a 24x wheel in a crate LS7 for a GENIII app? I know of 1 LS7 crate motor that will be pulled apart to change the pistons (lower CR) for a C5 TT app. Just wondering if the builder is going to have the motor apart already would it be best to wait for 58x support or retrofit and have the motor running immediately after reassembly.
I guess I am trying to understand if there are major advantages to waiting for 58x support or if current 24x support could be just as effective.
10-30-2005, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by billreid1@***.net
...my suggestion was to try and test the 58x wheel in a more abundantly available GENIII motor so that BS3 testing could progress...
10-30-2005, 08:16 PM
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We need to know where the missing teeth are on the crank in relationship to the cam. Without this info testing can't start.
As far as adding a 24X wheel, that would be a good fix if the engine was apart anyway.
Kurt
As far as adding a 24X wheel, that would be a good fix if the engine was apart anyway.
Kurt
11-01-2005, 05:12 PM
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We should have our motor tomorrow as well.. Got a response from John on the BS3, said he was shooting for around Christmas time to have an available product. We're anxiously watching the progress on this.
11-01-2005, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 427
We need to know where the missing teeth are on the crank in relationship to the cam. Without this info testing can't start.
11-02-2005, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MEFISTUFF
If your in So Cal try R&d dyno in Gardena
, he has Mefi 4 ecu's, software, and harnesses
for ls7
, he has Mefi 4 ecu's, software, and harnesses
for ls7
Stopping by there today.