Will the L92 head/L76 intake combo render other H/C combos obsolete?
10-23-2006, 05:28 PM
#1
Will the L92 head/L76 intake combo render other H/C combos obsolete? With the price of these items, and potential performance (based on flow numbers) will this combo render ETP/TrickFlow/AFR and other $2000+ heads obsolete? I'm sure that these heads can be made to flow 330-340 pretty easily with a relatively mild port job, something that only $3000+ heads are currenly able to do. Will ETP/AFR/TF heads have to come down in price signifigantly to compete, or am I missing something and these heads/intake combo don't seem too good to be true?
Shawn
Shawn
10-23-2006, 05:47 PM
#3
thought the intake volumes were huge which could hurt velocity, much like a huge hogged port job on a LS6 head vs an AFR205, the AFR will make more power all around. I think the jury is still out on this one. The intake shows mucho promise from what I hear though. I'm interested in how some projects turn out for the early adopters 
10-23-2006, 06:59 PM
#5
Originally Posted by CoronaL
thought the intake volumes were huge which could hurt velocity, much like a huge hogged port job on a LS6 head vs an AFR205, the AFR will make more power all around.
Shawn
10-23-2006, 07:09 PM
#6
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yes and no. for anyone with a 4.00 bore; yes it renders everything else obsolte. if you are stuck with an LS1 no; you will have to get spend big money on the AFRs and what not, soon AFRs will start comming down in price though.
i have an LS1, and instead of buying heads for it im going to buy a 6.0 block and build it with L92 heads and a carbed intake, best dollar per hp IMO.
i have an LS1, and instead of buying heads for it im going to buy a 6.0 block and build it with L92 heads and a carbed intake, best dollar per hp IMO.
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10-23-2006, 07:22 PM
#8
So should I hold out on a L92 415 cu. in. build with ETP heads? Its too bad this combo isn't readily available so that people out there can post numbers (flow, hp/tq, & track times). Then aftermarket head companies can get their hands on them so they can start figuring out how to improve them.
10-23-2006, 08:49 PM
#9
Well the issues like guys have stated are the bore size.... below 4.0" it's still sticking with cathedral port heads.
Now when we get into ported head land, again the quality of the valve jobs, ports, and if we stick with stock seats and guides will all play into this. That will change the pricing from the cheap heads to the real heads. I haven't looked at the total costs of everything yet, but even a well done street setup with guides and aftermarket valves will be cheaper than a aftermarket head with a FAST intake. I already know of some head porters with the heads that have had them for a LONG time. So ported heads of high quality should be available by next year. Now cheap rip offs will probably be 6 months behind them after they get their hands on the good stuff and do the cheap form of R&D, stealing.
When you say "mild port job" does that mean cheap and not thought out? Taking 10-15cc out of these heads will be "mild" but doing it in the right spots will make SPECTACULAR results.
My professional opinion is that the heads will be killer on a 365 cube motor, we are going to run into issues with the cams and pistons, period. I don't think there is a way around that, but a fly cutter will definately help. If you don't like that then there will be power to miss. The compression needed for bigger cams and piston to valve clearance with the big valves is going to nessiciate the flycutting. My CNC shop might be able to cut down a set of fly cutters for everyone out there it's just going to be a large order and add $300 to the setup. One reason LS stuff is something I don't get into for the masses, I don't accept not flycutting as a reason to give up power, TQ and drivability. It's just stupid, do it right the first time or don't do it at all. Either way BIG OUTPUT is never cheap, it can just be less expensive overall.
We are also going to be "stuck" with beehives and 921's for the most part for the springs. With companies like PAC offering nitrided beehives that's going to up the cost but allow us to do more with less. That again will come with the territory though, welded up spring pads for race setups is doable, but will add cost. Also a aftermarket rocker arm setup would be nice for race setups.
Bret
Now when we get into ported head land, again the quality of the valve jobs, ports, and if we stick with stock seats and guides will all play into this. That will change the pricing from the cheap heads to the real heads. I haven't looked at the total costs of everything yet, but even a well done street setup with guides and aftermarket valves will be cheaper than a aftermarket head with a FAST intake. I already know of some head porters with the heads that have had them for a LONG time. So ported heads of high quality should be available by next year. Now cheap rip offs will probably be 6 months behind them after they get their hands on the good stuff and do the cheap form of R&D, stealing.
When you say "mild port job" does that mean cheap and not thought out? Taking 10-15cc out of these heads will be "mild" but doing it in the right spots will make SPECTACULAR results.
My professional opinion is that the heads will be killer on a 365 cube motor, we are going to run into issues with the cams and pistons, period. I don't think there is a way around that, but a fly cutter will definately help. If you don't like that then there will be power to miss. The compression needed for bigger cams and piston to valve clearance with the big valves is going to nessiciate the flycutting. My CNC shop might be able to cut down a set of fly cutters for everyone out there it's just going to be a large order and add $300 to the setup. One reason LS stuff is something I don't get into for the masses, I don't accept not flycutting as a reason to give up power, TQ and drivability. It's just stupid, do it right the first time or don't do it at all. Either way BIG OUTPUT is never cheap, it can just be less expensive overall.
We are also going to be "stuck" with beehives and 921's for the most part for the springs. With companies like PAC offering nitrided beehives that's going to up the cost but allow us to do more with less. That again will come with the territory though, welded up spring pads for race setups is doable, but will add cost. Also a aftermarket rocker arm setup would be nice for race setups.
Bret
10-23-2006, 09:04 PM
#11
Bret,
Jesel is already making a system for the LS7 if they haven't already released it. I don't see a set of L92 rockers being far behind. Here's your chance to build that valvetrain company you always wanted though.
Floyd
p.s.
Tigers suck go Cards
Jesel is already making a system for the LS7 if they haven't already released it. I don't see a set of L92 rockers being far behind. Here's your chance to build that valvetrain company you always wanted though.
Floyd
p.s.
Tigers suck go Cards
10-24-2006, 03:32 AM
#12
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[QUOTE=CoronaL]thought the intake volumes were huge which could hurt velocity, much like a huge hogged port job on a LS6 head vs an AFR205, the AFR will make more power all around.
You need to read alittle more before you post bad info..
You need to read alittle more before you post bad info..
10-24-2006, 03:34 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by Cop Car
yes and no. for anyone with a 4.00 bore; yes it renders everything else obsolte. if you are stuck with an LS1 no; you will have to get spend big money on the AFRs and what not, soon AFRs will start comming down in price though.
i have an LS1, and instead of buying heads for it im going to buy a 6.0 block and build it with L92 heads and a carbed intake, best dollar per hp IMO.
i have an LS1, and instead of buying heads for it im going to buy a 6.0 block and build it with L92 heads and a carbed intake, best dollar per hp IMO.
10-24-2006, 04:19 AM
#14
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l92 As much as a lot of you folks think these heads are going to be the one and only, athey still miss out on a lot of features that make the aftermarket heads shine. We have had customers see 35 hp between our LS7 and the GM head. As far as costs, we all have our own market we sell to. I am glad GM stepped up and offered a cool cylinder head like the l92 and LS7. They will be a nice budget head for some guys, they will serve their purpose. As far as us other companies dropping our prices to compete, I can bet that is not going to happen. In fact you will probably see price increases from the aftermarkets. If our volume goes down, our prices must increase, not decrease to meet what GM is selling their heads for, they are making such big quantities of these castings oversees, as well as most of the associated parts, there is no way we will ever compete with them. All we can do is build a better part and meet the marketplace in the middle.
10-24-2006, 09:15 AM
#17
Originally Posted by cary et performance
As much as a lot of you folks think these heads are going to be the one and only, athey still miss out on a lot of features that make the aftermarket heads shine. We have had customers see 35 hp between our LS7 and the GM head. As far as costs, we all have our own market we sell to. I am glad GM stepped up and offered a cool cylinder head like the l92 and LS7. They will be a nice budget head for some guys, they will serve their purpose. As far as us other companies dropping our prices to compete, I can bet that is not going to happen. In fact you will probably see price increases from the aftermarkets. If our volume goes down, our prices must increase, not decrease to meet what GM is selling their heads for, they are making such big quantities of these castings oversees, as well as most of the associated parts, there is no way we will ever compete with them. All we can do is build a better part and meet the marketplace in the middle.
I'd be willing to pay premium for a aftermarket L92 head just as long as GM's new and cheaper intake will support the extra air flow. $1500.00 for a ported FAST intake, plus $500.00 for the 90mm throttle body is a fuching rip off for what little it offers, 30hp MAX for the LS1 engine
Last edited by gollum; 10-24-2006 at 09:30 AM.
10-24-2006, 09:18 AM
#18
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
We are also going to be "stuck" with beehives and 921's for the most part for the springs. With companies like PAC offering nitrided beehives that's going to up the cost but allow us to do more with less. That again will come with the territory though, welded up spring pads for race setups is doable, but will add cost. Also a aftermarket rocker arm setup would be nice for race setups.
Bret
Bret
Why will we be stuck with those springs only? I assumed that since a stock LS1 spring comes on the L92 heads that a Patroit or some other Dual gold spring kit would work. Am I wrong by thinking that?
Also something that many of you guys don't see...
For the boosted guys, the aftermarket casting's will still be a much better product. We have always had a problem holding head gaskets and the new GM casting's won't be any better.
I feel there is a good market for both company's, and the simple fact is that ETP has a 4" bore LS7 head which will compete with the L92 heads. The price is more but the product is damn nice.
I feel that ETP will out shine AFR/TF etc in the 4" bore market just because of the option's they offer.
Remember this isn't the first time we have had a ported GM casting option.
10-24-2006, 09:43 AM
#19
bang for the buck, the L92/76 stuff should make ported LS1/6 heads obsolete for 4.00" bores and larger. But, the aftermarket guys will still sell ported L92 heads, so they have a market too. I think the LS1/6 castings themselves will just become paperweights for the larger bore crowd.
10-24-2006, 10:01 AM
#20
Originally Posted by Nine Ball
I think the LS1/6 castings themselves will just become paperweights for the larger bore crowd.