L92 DynoJet Numbers Plus Plan B, C, D, E and F...
02-28-2007, 01:44 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by 1bigcam
when is some one going to put a real big cam in one of these set ups. waiting to see what kind of power is gained.
02-28-2007, 01:59 PM
#122
How much timing were you able to gain by dropping the CR back and what were you running during the dyno? I wonder if these things "like" all the timing they can take just prior to knock. I am going to try some Superflow dyno testing on mine to try and see what effect timing has-??
02-28-2007, 02:04 PM
#123
Originally Posted by See5
How much timing were you able to gain by dropping the CR back and what were you running during the dyno? I wonder if these things "like" all the timing they can take just prior to knock. I am going to try some Superflow dyno testing on mine to try and see what effect timing has-??
02-28-2007, 03:07 PM
#124
Originally Posted by PediDr2
Isn't that what Louis (LG) did? Granted it was a 346 but....
Granted it was pretty healthy for a 364, but for a 402-408 I would call it a baby.
I do NOT know the exact size of it but just looking at a few of the clues, I have a pretty decent idea.
02-28-2007, 04:02 PM
#125
Originally Posted by White_Hawk
I don't think anyone is arguing with you that TFS is better. It is all about cheapness:
--> L92 Heads + L76 Intake + Springs = $1200 (or $1600 if you need a TB)
--> TFS heads + Fast 90 = $3200 (or $3600 if you need a throttle body)
Either way, it is $2000 cheaper. It is a great alternative for people going big cube but don't want to drop the big bucks on the heads and FAST intake setup. I think that there is always going to be a market for ported LS6 heads and aftermarket cathedral castings too.
-Geoff
--> L92 Heads + L76 Intake + Springs = $1200 (or $1600 if you need a TB)
--> TFS heads + Fast 90 = $3200 (or $3600 if you need a throttle body)
Either way, it is $2000 cheaper. It is a great alternative for people going big cube but don't want to drop the big bucks on the heads and FAST intake setup. I think that there is always going to be a market for ported LS6 heads and aftermarket cathedral castings too.
-Geoff
I'm not going to knock the L92s, however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7. They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
427+ cid engines may be a different story, however.
02-28-2007, 04:48 PM
#126
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
But, if you can throw a TFS head + Fast 90 on a stock LS2 (assuming 05+), it'll be cheaper than building a 402/416 + L92 + L76 intake. And the TFS heads would still make more power with a similar cam.
I'm not going to knock the L92s, however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7. They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
427+ cid engines may be a different story, however.
I'm not going to knock the L92s, however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7. They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
427+ cid engines may be a different story, however.
02-28-2007, 05:04 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by WKMCD
Final results:
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the numbers for a baby cam "Gentleman's Cruiser". The torque curve remained pretty much as before so the car will remain a blast to drive. Richard at WCCH really feels that the intake is now the limiting factor on this setup. He's probably right. Someone really needs to come out with a cost effective street manifold that will keep up with the setup.
Ed and I are talking about another cam option this morning and we'll see what develops.
First Setup/Final Numbers:
Head swap only:
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the numbers for a baby cam "Gentleman's Cruiser". The torque curve remained pretty much as before so the car will remain a blast to drive. Richard at WCCH really feels that the intake is now the limiting factor on this setup. He's probably right. Someone really needs to come out with a cost effective street manifold that will keep up with the setup.
Ed and I are talking about another cam option this morning and we'll see what develops.
First Setup/Final Numbers:
Head swap only:
And on the price thing, I am not disappointed at all with the performance. I have ~$850 dollars in heads, Manley exh vlvs, gm intake vlvs, int. rockers and rocker pedestals. The bang for the buck, you can't complain.
edit: I have a Patriot gold spring and Ti retainer set as well.
Last edited by TurboGibbs; 03-01-2007 at 07:36 AM.
02-28-2007, 05:27 PM
#128
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
But, if you can throw a TFS head + Fast 90 on a stock LS2 (assuming 05+), it'll be cheaper than building a 402/416 + L92 + L76 intake. And the TFS heads would still make more power with a similar cam.
I'm not going to knock the L92s, however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7. They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
427+ cid engines may be a different story, however.
I'm not going to knock the L92s, however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7. They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
427+ cid engines may be a different story, however.
We have what....... results from 4 engines and a few different cams and the first set of ported heads??? It's a good thing we all did'nt **** on the first 427's that made 450+ rwhp!!!
All I know is this, selling my cath. AFR's and Fast 90 and converting that cash to my L92 topend gave me my results and $1,800 in my pocket. I could care less what anyone else thinks about falling back on "it's cheaper". It is, period.
BTW, I'll be back for some tune work next week now that I have the some other drivetrain issues worked out. I think there is some more left in my combo.
02-28-2007, 05:31 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
But, if you can throw a TFS head + Fast 90 on a stock LS2 (assuming 05+), it'll be cheaper than building a 402/416 + L92 + L76 intake. And the TFS heads would still make more power with a similar cam.
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
I'm not going to knock the L92s,
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
however. But I'm just sick of this comparison in money. People can slant it how they want, but the fact remains at the end of the day, for a 364-416 type of engine, a smaller port cathedral head is going to make more power than an L92 or even LS7.
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
They are great stock pieces, but I'm sure everyone was wanting more out of these heads based solely on the amazing flow numbers. When it didn't translate well to the real world, I see lots of people falling back to "well it's cheaper." So are ported LS6 heads, and I'm sure they could easily give you the power of L92 heads on the 364-416 sized engines for a similar price.
-Geoff™
02-28-2007, 06:24 PM
#130
It is a bit early to say what the potential of a L92 head/cam/intake package will be. Comparing them with heads packages that have taken years to evolve may be only represent a current benchmark. With most heads we are trying to increase flow, while with the L92s it is managing and enabling the huge flow potential.
02-28-2007, 07:02 PM
#131
Originally Posted by White_Hawk
I don't see them not translating well. 500/500 is bad now? Plus, you now have a stock block at it's limit. What if you want to spray it?
-Geoff™
-Geoff™
Phil
02-28-2007, 09:35 PM
#132
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I think everyone is missing the boat on the LS7 and L92 combo's simply because you are working with heads that have WAY too large of an intake valve. People talk about the port volume and velocity, but the velocity AROUND the valve is the MOST important part. Heads with smaller intake valves are easier to get the cam timing events correct, the intake valve closing point on these heads is going to be THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the cam spec process, simply because they will tend to have intake port reversion at the end of the intake cycle. A smaller intake valve will act more like a "check valve" against intake port reversion. This is why the new TFS 225 head made for a 4.00" bore only sports a 2.055 valve, it will actually make power easier then a 2.08 valve. Incidently that tiny valve flows over 280 at .400", the most we have seen from a ported L92 at .400" is 290 cfm and a LS7 is 300 cfm. This is also the same reason you have not seen us jump on the L92 band wagon, because we understood the heads were going to be EXTREMELY hard to cam, and heads that are hard to cam tend to make the company that ports them look bad.
I have an example for you, the guys at ECS built a 447 several years ago with our ported LS6 heads that made 600 RHWP, everyone called BS, but with an unskilled driver the car ran 138 MPH on motor. They recently built a 447 with LS7 heads and it makes 520 RWHP, they will be replacing those heads with some new TFS big bore units that are almost finished, we are shooting for 290 cfm at .400" with only a 2.08 valve.
Good luck with your combo.
I have an example for you, the guys at ECS built a 447 several years ago with our ported LS6 heads that made 600 RHWP, everyone called BS, but with an unskilled driver the car ran 138 MPH on motor. They recently built a 447 with LS7 heads and it makes 520 RWHP, they will be replacing those heads with some new TFS big bore units that are almost finished, we are shooting for 290 cfm at .400" with only a 2.08 valve.
Good luck with your combo.
02-28-2007, 10:18 PM
#133
Originally Posted by White_Hawk
-Geoff™
If you have a certain budget to hit, you'd have to make compromises somewhere. Either with the internal components, heads, intake, headers, etc. For $10k you can build a 415 L92/L76 complete longblock and that's very good - or you can build a 402 with ported LS6 heads. For $12k you can do the same with a 402+TFS/AFR heads. One will make more power than the other based off what we're seeing.
Or you can run an ATI Procharger and a 347 and whoop everything's *** on the street, racetrack, and in terms of drivability.
The point is, the heads still outflow most aftermarket castings and ported LS6 heads. In time, I hope the L92s can make more power than those heads, although I wouldn't buy them or any ported stock casting, because I like the strength of the aftermarket castings. If I cared only about power per dollar, I'd run an Eagle crank and not a Lunati. But sometimes, quality is as important as power.
As far as 427s only making 450rwhp, weren't head/cam cars just at 400rwhp at that time? So it was an increase over 346 setups (plus, we were still used to SBC and LT1s struggling to do much better than that with street-friendly, pump gas setups). Now, we're spoiled by 500rwhp h/c 346s that can also do 450+rwtq and cathedral port 427s that clear 575rwhp pretty easily (maybe not on this forum, but the Vette tuners seem to be able to do this without destroying street manners). And with cams that are maybe only 10 to 12 degrees bigger, it'll take more than a camshaft swap to find another 50-75rwhp.
02-28-2007, 10:49 PM
#135
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
As far as 427s only making 450rwhp, weren't head/cam cars just at 400rwhp at that time? So it was an increase over 346 setups (plus, we were still used to SBC and LT1s struggling to do much better than that with street-friendly, pump gas setups). Now, we're spoiled by 500rwhp h/c 346s that can also do 450+rwtq and cathedral port 427s that clear 575rwhp pretty easily (maybe not on this forum, but the Vette tuners seem to be able to do this without destroying street manners). And with cams that are maybe only 10 to 12 degrees bigger, it'll take more than a camshaft swap to find another 50-75rwhp.
02-28-2007, 11:10 PM
#136
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Originally Posted by Phil99vette
How is the stock block @ its limit? People have made over 1100hp with them.
Phil
Phil
-Geoff
02-28-2007, 11:23 PM
#137
Originally Posted by 2c5s
Spoiled with 500 rwhp 346's. You can count those on 1 hand and streetable is very objective.
02-28-2007, 11:28 PM
#138
Like I said, a supercharger will give you more power and streetability for less money. 500rwhp h/c cars may not be that streetable to you, but I'm not 65 years old, so I can enjoy a car like that. I made a big fuss with my wife a few years back when I bought the Vette. My rationale was to either have kids and wait to get the car, or to get the car now while I could still enjoy it.
A mid-life crisis is more fun when you're 24.
A mid-life crisis is more fun when you're 24.
02-28-2007, 11:29 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by 52172
Well if you can count one hand from just ls1 tech then you KNOW there are about 50 of them out there. With the doctored combos out there from AFR and TF and ET it is not that hard if you know your ****.
If it was that easy, the dyno section would be PACKED with them, it's not.
02-28-2007, 11:33 PM
#140
Well I believe it is a shortage of HIGHLY skilled and knowledgeable mechanics, but anyone with the money and skills can build one in a week or so. So I wouldn't say its dificult. So if everyone had money and the skills.the dyno section would be packed.