L92 DynoJet Numbers Plus Plan B, C, D, E and F...
02-28-2007, 11:52 PM
#141
It's not easy, but it's doable. Most people can't see spending the amount of money necessary on just heads/cam and bolt-ons to hit that power level. It's easier and nearly as cheap to buy a budget 408, stick shitty heads on it, run the wrong cam, and run it with horribly mis-matched bolt-ons. You see lots of whining in the dyno section with people only making 460rwhp with a 250 duration cam in a 408. "Why doesn't it make 550rwhp?!" Sigh.
There's also plenty of head/cam cars that don't make the number either because of budget constraints and ****-poor combination matching. People who do their homework and are willing to spend cash on each little piece hit the number. My concern with that is this (and it's probably a lot of other people's also): is it worth it to keep adding thousands of dollars to the motor to get another 20-30rwhp? Getting to a certain power level NA does become expensive. Right now, we're seeing 500rwhp L92 combos and they are price advantageous. To get to 550rwhp, it might take several thousand more dollars to optimize it for that level of power. Diminishing returns has to become a factor. Cathedral port heads have their limitations so it's possible to budget with that in mind. In time, the L92s will have the same "knowledge asset inventory," or a backlog of combinations that proves what and what doesn't work.
That's why what WKMCD is doing is great. I may been down on these heads, but people like WKMCD may come across a great combination that makes me rethink the product.
Also, I'm sure WKMCD has spent over a thousand dollars to get 25rwhp and 30rwtq more out of his setup. That's not too bad actually, but someone else may have been happy with the 475/430 number. But that could have been done with a relatively proven head/cam combination for cheaper. To get that H/C combo up 25rwhp would probably have cost more than a thousand dollars, but still may have been cheaper than the 402/L92 build. But, as you pointed out 2c5s, price is not the only concern. Drivability, durability, and other factors have to be weighed as well.
Of course, if budget was not a concern, there wouldn't be this balancing act.
There's also plenty of head/cam cars that don't make the number either because of budget constraints and ****-poor combination matching. People who do their homework and are willing to spend cash on each little piece hit the number. My concern with that is this (and it's probably a lot of other people's also): is it worth it to keep adding thousands of dollars to the motor to get another 20-30rwhp? Getting to a certain power level NA does become expensive. Right now, we're seeing 500rwhp L92 combos and they are price advantageous. To get to 550rwhp, it might take several thousand more dollars to optimize it for that level of power. Diminishing returns has to become a factor. Cathedral port heads have their limitations so it's possible to budget with that in mind. In time, the L92s will have the same "knowledge asset inventory," or a backlog of combinations that proves what and what doesn't work.
That's why what WKMCD is doing is great. I may been down on these heads, but people like WKMCD may come across a great combination that makes me rethink the product.
Also, I'm sure WKMCD has spent over a thousand dollars to get 25rwhp and 30rwtq more out of his setup. That's not too bad actually, but someone else may have been happy with the 475/430 number. But that could have been done with a relatively proven head/cam combination for cheaper. To get that H/C combo up 25rwhp would probably have cost more than a thousand dollars, but still may have been cheaper than the 402/L92 build. But, as you pointed out 2c5s, price is not the only concern. Drivability, durability, and other factors have to be weighed as well.
Of course, if budget was not a concern, there wouldn't be this balancing act.
03-01-2007, 02:56 AM
#143
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Originally Posted by 1bigcam
when is some one going to put a real big cam in one of these set ups. waiting to see what kind of power is gained.
03-01-2007, 06:59 AM
#144
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
You see lots of whining in the dyno section with people only making 460rwhp with a 250 duration cam in a 408. "Why doesn't it make 550rwhp?!" Sigh.
There's also plenty of head/cam cars that don't make the number either because of budget constraints and ****-poor combination matching. People who do their homework and are willing to spend cash on each little piece hit the number. My concern with that is this (and it's probably a lot of other people's also): is it worth it to keep adding thousands of dollars to the motor to get another 20-30rwhp? Getting to a certain power level NA does become expensive. Right now, we're seeing 500rwhp L92 combos and they are price advantageous. To get to 550rwhp, it might take several thousand more dollars to optimize it for that level of power. Diminishing returns has to become a factor. Cathedral port heads have their limitations so it's possible to budget with that in mind. In time, the L92s will have the same "knowledge asset inventory," or a backlog of combinations that proves what and what doesn't work.
That's why what WKMCD is doing is great. I may been down on these heads, but people like WKMCD may come across a great combination that makes me rethink the product.
But, as you pointed out 2c5s, price is not the only concern. Drivability, durability, and other factors have to be weighed as well.
There's also plenty of head/cam cars that don't make the number either because of budget constraints and ****-poor combination matching. People who do their homework and are willing to spend cash on each little piece hit the number. My concern with that is this (and it's probably a lot of other people's also): is it worth it to keep adding thousands of dollars to the motor to get another 20-30rwhp? Getting to a certain power level NA does become expensive. Right now, we're seeing 500rwhp L92 combos and they are price advantageous. To get to 550rwhp, it might take several thousand more dollars to optimize it for that level of power. Diminishing returns has to become a factor. Cathedral port heads have their limitations so it's possible to budget with that in mind. In time, the L92s will have the same "knowledge asset inventory," or a backlog of combinations that proves what and what doesn't work.
That's why what WKMCD is doing is great. I may been down on these heads, but people like WKMCD may come across a great combination that makes me rethink the product.
But, as you pointed out 2c5s, price is not the only concern. Drivability, durability, and other factors have to be weighed as well.
You know, this is the kind of discussion I really hoped this build would encourage. We're having fun doing something different.
03-01-2007, 07:40 AM
#145
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
Like I said, a supercharger will give you more power and streetability for less money. 500rwhp h/c cars may not be that streetable to you, but I'm not 65 years old, so I can enjoy a car like that. I made a big fuss with my wife a few years back when I bought the Vette. My rationale was to either have kids and wait to get the car, or to get the car now while I could still enjoy it.
A mid-life crisis is more fun when you're 24.
A mid-life crisis is more fun when you're 24.
) the price of doing the supercharger jumps by that much.I priced out a new 383 (forged) short-block and a "used" IC Maggie (plus hood) and I keep busting 10K... In the other corner, a SDPC L92 415 with all my current mods needless to say is cheaper (for me). This assuming I will also have to spend a little to get my AFR205s Mamo'd to support the L92 415.
I know which one is cheaper... but a IC Maggie w/alky on a forged 383 sounds sooooooooooo sweet....
03-01-2007, 09:40 AM
#146
Originally Posted by SideStep
I don't know man... I have been beating the bushes trying to get my next project worked out... and if you have to replace an aging short-block (and I do... ) the price of doing the supercharger jumps by that much.
I priced out a new 383 (forged) short-block and a "used" IC Maggie (plus hood) and I keep busting 10K... In the other corner, a SDPC L92 415 with all my current mods needless to say is cheaper (for me). This assuming I will also have to spend a little to get my AFR205s Mamo'd to support the L92 415.
I know which one is cheaper... but a IC Maggie w/alky on a forged 383 sounds sooooooooooo sweet....
) the price of doing the supercharger jumps by that much.I priced out a new 383 (forged) short-block and a "used" IC Maggie (plus hood) and I keep busting 10K... In the other corner, a SDPC L92 415 with all my current mods needless to say is cheaper (for me). This assuming I will also have to spend a little to get my AFR205s Mamo'd to support the L92 415.
I know which one is cheaper... but a IC Maggie w/alky on a forged 383 sounds sooooooooooo sweet....
A&A's Vortech kit $6k (with fuel system) + forged blower 346 (let the supercharger make power, not displacement) is $3200. $9200 right there and with the AFR 205s, you can make upwards of 700rwhp on 93 octane with that setup. If you install it yourself, you can basically factor another $1000-1200 for the tune, shipping, and everything else you'll need.
Now, off the hijack.
Originally Posted by WKMCD
You know, this is the kind of discussion I really hoped this build would encourage. We're having fun doing something different.
Of course, to remain in the vein of this post, it might be worth welding up some material to weak spots of the L92s to increase strength and then putting a supercharger or turbo to them. 415 + L92s is just asking for a twin turbo or something.
03-01-2007, 10:17 AM
#147
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Originally Posted by SideStep
I priced out a new 383 (forged) short-block and a "used" IC Maggie (plus hood) and I keep busting 10K... In the other corner, a SDPC L92 415 with all my current mods needless to say is cheaper (for me). This assuming I will also have to spend a little to get my AFR205s Mamo'd to support the L92 415.
I know which one is cheaper... but a IC Maggie w/alky on a forged 383 sounds sooooooooooo sweet....
I know which one is cheaper... but a IC Maggie w/alky on a forged 383 sounds sooooooooooo sweet....
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/4274...e-Assembly.htm
An L92 416 shortblock assembly is $4,499.95
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/4274...-10cc-Dish.htm
Bottom line is that an IC Maggie would be the bomb!!!
Last edited by cybernco; 03-01-2007 at 10:26 AM.
03-01-2007, 01:01 PM
#148
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Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
I think the fact that these are GM parts found on stock vehicles (heads/intake) that the numbers are respectable. Not stellar, but respectable.
The fact that the CNC heads had minimal gain, again, can be viewed two totally different ways. The CNC work doesnt gain much, or are the heads that good from GM?
The fact that the CNC heads had minimal gain, again, can be viewed two totally different ways. The CNC work doesnt gain much, or are the heads that good from GM?
Originally Posted by cybernco
I've got a Comp Cams custom grind 236/246 duration, .601/.615 lift, 112 LSA which is a little bigger than they just tested. I'm at 148 miles on the engine and am just waiting to finish breaking it in before I put it on the dyno.
03-01-2007, 01:10 PM
#149
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
I'm glad it has remained civil. Keep us posted on what you're planning next.
Of course, to remain in the vein of this post, it might be worth welding up some material to weak spots of the L92s to increase strength and then putting a supercharger or turbo to them. 415 + L92s is just asking for a twin turbo or something.
Of course, to remain in the vein of this post, it might be worth welding up some material to weak spots of the L92s to increase strength and then putting a supercharger or turbo to them. 415 + L92s is just asking for a twin turbo or something.
03-01-2007, 05:10 PM
#150
Ed's been tuning the car today and asked me to post this.
Ed, That's insane!!! 
Who says there's no such thing as a free luch.
500RWHP that drives that well. I know you really wanted to post up a big peak number and had some other cams in mind but I think we got just the car I wanted or more.
I can't wait to drive is on Saturday. We'll be down about 11:15 is any of the local guys want to check this out.
Thanks,
Kevin
Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
Kevin, you are going to absolutely LOVE the low speed driveability. After a couple tweaks, went for a spin. How about 50 MPH in 6th gear at 1200-1300 RPMs? How you like them #s!!! VERY nice low speed manners, and SICK power. You wanted the best of both worlds, well, thats what ya got. I've got some more tuning on it, not much, but I'll be posting a summary late tomorrow.
I really think we knocked it out of the park!!
I really think we knocked it out of the park!!
Who says there's no such thing as a free luch.
500RWHP that drives that well. I know you really wanted to post up a big peak number and had some other cams in mind but I think we got just the car I wanted or more. I can't wait to drive is on Saturday. We'll be down about 11:15 is any of the local guys want to check this out.
Thanks,
Kevin
Last edited by WKMCD; 03-01-2007 at 06:13 PM.
03-03-2007, 07:03 AM
#151
Originally Posted by cybernco
I've got a Comp Cams custom grind 236/246 duration, .601/.615 lift, 112 LSA which is a little bigger than they just tested. I'm at 148 miles on the engine and am just waiting to finish breaking it in before I put it on the dyno.
When are you dyno'ing ???
03-03-2007, 07:13 AM
#152
Originally Posted by cybernco
I've got a Comp Cams custom grind 236/246 duration, .601/.615 lift, 112 LSA which is a little bigger than they just tested. I'm at 148 miles on the engine and am just waiting to finish breaking it in before I put it on the dyno.
03-04-2007, 02:58 AM
#153
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Dyno Time I'm going to wait until I have 3K miles, switch to synthetic oil and then put the car on the dyno. I've had the engine to 4500 RPM's so far, but at only part throttle. I'm cautious not to reach WOT just yet.
Hey has anyone had experience with Wilson Billet Intakes? I was reading about their products & it seems like they have some really serious stuff. Thanks for the post WKMCD.
Hey has anyone had experience with Wilson Billet Intakes? I was reading about their products & it seems like they have some really serious stuff. Thanks for the post WKMCD.
03-04-2007, 07:25 AM
#155
I posted this on another forum but I wanted to complete this thread.
Well, I picked up the car yesterday from Ed Hutchings at Automotive Technologies in Chesapeake, VA. Five of us made the trip. ALOHAC5 (thanks for the ride down), KIDCID, MCLEOD and LOWCASH. It was a great day for the cruise from Northern VA. Ed has a great shop and DynoJet setup.
Ed drove up and picked up the car last weeked. He swapped out the stock L92 heads and installed the WCCH Stage 2 CNC'd heads and changed the cam to a 234-240 112. A baby cam for for a 402. This is not a max build.
We got there and the car was freshly washed and looking good. Ed was excited about how the car turned out and I couldn't wait to drive it. I took Mike - ALOHAC5 - for a ride. I COULDN"T BELIEVE HOW THE CAR RAN! (Yes, I'm yelling) We drove through the parking lot - just like you would drive a stock motor. No clutch slipping, no lurching, no bucking..nothing but smooth. We eased out onto the roadway and pulled away. Up though the gears there wasn't a hint of any cam stuff - SWEET. Of course I had to hammer it a couple times just to remind myself that this is a 500RWHP car with 466RWT. The throttle response is instantaneous. A slight tip in and the rears light up not a little but until I backed off. I let MIke drive the car just to make sure I wasn't imagining how the car ran. He confirmed my impressions. The car makes sick power but drives like stock.
I know a lot of people say there H/C cars drive like stock but not many making 500RWHP do that are being honest. My My H/C 346 with a 230-236 112 had cam stuff going on. Nature of the beast. WIth the setup I can crawl through parking lots and cruise as low as 1100RPM. I put it in 6th gear and left it there the entire ride home running from 40-80MPH (the 80MPH part was on a closed circuit we stopped by on the way
).
I now have the "Gentleman's Cruiser" that I wanted. I can use the car to commute in DC Rush Hour, take on long trips and drive it for a long time. The MPG also went up to 20.5 on the way home. Up from 14MPG with the high overlap cam.
Did I mention that is makes 500RWHP and 466RWT. Hell it makes 380RWT at 2300RPM. - SWEET!!!
GARY - GB VETTE - stopped by with his sweet ride. If you haven't sen that car in person you should make a point of it.
Thanks guys for a great cruise down and back. Ed - you done good!!!
I've already got my next mod decided.....My *** in the driver's seat!
Well, I picked up the car yesterday from Ed Hutchings at Automotive Technologies in Chesapeake, VA. Five of us made the trip. ALOHAC5 (thanks for the ride down), KIDCID, MCLEOD and LOWCASH. It was a great day for the cruise from Northern VA. Ed has a great shop and DynoJet setup.
Ed drove up and picked up the car last weeked. He swapped out the stock L92 heads and installed the WCCH Stage 2 CNC'd heads and changed the cam to a 234-240 112. A baby cam for for a 402. This is not a max build.
We got there and the car was freshly washed and looking good. Ed was excited about how the car turned out and I couldn't wait to drive it. I took Mike - ALOHAC5 - for a ride. I COULDN"T BELIEVE HOW THE CAR RAN! (Yes, I'm yelling) We drove through the parking lot - just like you would drive a stock motor. No clutch slipping, no lurching, no bucking..nothing but smooth. We eased out onto the roadway and pulled away. Up though the gears there wasn't a hint of any cam stuff - SWEET. Of course I had to hammer it a couple times just to remind myself that this is a 500RWHP car with 466RWT. The throttle response is instantaneous. A slight tip in and the rears light up not a little but until I backed off. I let MIke drive the car just to make sure I wasn't imagining how the car ran. He confirmed my impressions. The car makes sick power but drives like stock.
I know a lot of people say there H/C cars drive like stock but not many making 500RWHP do that are being honest. My My H/C 346 with a 230-236 112 had cam stuff going on. Nature of the beast. WIth the setup I can crawl through parking lots and cruise as low as 1100RPM. I put it in 6th gear and left it there the entire ride home running from 40-80MPH (the 80MPH part was on a closed circuit we stopped by on the way
).I now have the "Gentleman's Cruiser" that I wanted. I can use the car to commute in DC Rush Hour, take on long trips and drive it for a long time. The MPG also went up to 20.5 on the way home. Up from 14MPG with the high overlap cam.
Did I mention that is makes 500RWHP and 466RWT. Hell it makes 380RWT at 2300RPM. - SWEET!!!
GARY - GB VETTE - stopped by with his sweet ride. If you haven't sen that car in person you should make a point of it.
Thanks guys for a great cruise down and back. Ed - you done good!!!
I've already got my next mod decided.....My *** in the driver's seat!
Last edited by WKMCD; 03-04-2007 at 07:30 AM.
03-04-2007, 07:29 AM
#156
Originally Posted by 98Z28CobraKiller
WKMCD, I saw mentioned in an earlier thread that this thing still has the stock cats on it. Did I read that correctly? If so, a free flowing exhaust will net much better numbers and may allow another few degrees of timing w/o kr.
03-04-2007, 07:58 AM
#158
I just re-read this entire thread....
Let me get this right... your current cam has 13 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and it has that kind-of throttle response and low-rpm quality???
Let me get this right... your current cam has 13 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and it has that kind-of throttle response and low-rpm quality???
03-04-2007, 10:07 AM
#159
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Drivability Congratulations WKMCD!!! Wow, killer results, your cars sounds perfect. Loads of power and the drivability of a daily driver was actually my goal, but I’ve definitely got loads of cam issues going on now. Thanks for sharing your results. It seems like we never quit learning more about the 400+ cid, L92 setup.
03-04-2007, 10:11 AM
#160
Originally Posted by SideStep
I just re-read this entire thread....
Let me get this right... your current cam has 13 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and it has that kind-of throttle response and low-rpm quality???
Let me get this right... your current cam has 13 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and it has that kind-of throttle response and low-rpm quality???
Last edited by WKMCD; 03-04-2007 at 10:28 AM.