Convince me to build LS instead of BBC!!!
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Quickin, you ought to check out Shafiroff's warranty before you put any faith in it. It's basically a $4000 insurance policy. You deal with the insurance company and even if you get 'em to give in, $4000 is the max you'll get out of 'em, regardless of what caused the engine failure. I know of one guy that fought 'em for almost 2 years before he got the full $4K out of 'em which was a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of repairing what a dropped valve did to the engine and considerably less after the bloodsucking lawyer got his piece. There are damned few builders that will take care of a buyer if they have a failure in the first few passes, but that's it. A 632 is a bitch to fit into a car, most require hacking the crossmember at the very least. Building anything bigger than about 565 cubes for pump gas doesn't make any sense anyway, anything bigger will just make more tire smoke and drink more fuel. You can buy a 565 conventional headed race gas engine that'll make awfully close to 1000hp for less and not have all the headaches that go with a 632.
I'm 100% in agreement with you on one thing for sure - for a '70 Chevelle, it's a no-brainer. Big block all the way, baby!
I'm 100% in agreement with you on one thing for sure - for a '70 Chevelle, it's a no-brainer. Big block all the way, baby!
Im set on a BBC. I dont see that much benefit for me to make it worthwhile swapping in an LS series engine, be it an LS2 or an LSx. Its a 70 chevelle, gas mileage is the last thing on my mind. If i cared about mileage id be building a civic with an h22.
turbos where always in the back of my mind but the added fab work always scared me. if the common opinion that turbos would be that much easier without much of a price difference then turbos it is. EFI was a no brainer a while back ha. I kno the majority of you are camaro firebird, gto experts but if turbos are the answer can we slowly change the topic to fitting a twin turbo kit that would fit into a chevelle (a-body).. any good sites that offer cost effective parts or a point in the right direction.
I don't think anyone would argue that nitrous is the easiest way to do. But as for the procharger. If you take the belt off. It will restrict the incoming air to the motor and it will run like crap. Trust me I had to drive my car home about 15 miles when I lost a blower belt. As long as I didn't go over 1/4-1/3 throttle it run just fine hahahaha. If it's forced induction you want and you don't want to fiddle with playing with pulleys everytime you want to turn the power up. A turbo or two is for you. And I love prochargers. But the Mel Gibson thing doesn't really work, you just can't flip the supercharger on lol.
I figured you were gonna go with the big block anyways. Which is a great choice. The 71 chevelle I was talking about has a turbo big block going into it now. But I really can't go into that. But it should make some good power. You'll be happy with it. As far as cost I don't know if it will be any cheaper. I sure hope you are going with EFI and not a carburetor. Cheers.
I figured you were gonna go with the big block anyways. Which is a great choice. The 71 chevelle I was talking about has a turbo big block going into it now. But I really can't go into that. But it should make some good power. You'll be happy with it. As far as cost I don't know if it will be any cheaper. I sure hope you are going with EFI and not a carburetor. Cheers.
turbos where always in the back of my mind but the added fab work always scared me. if the common opinion that turbos would be that much easier without much of a price difference then turbos it is. EFI was a no brainer a while back ha. I kno the majority of you are camaro firebird, gto experts but if turbos are the answer can we slowly change the topic to fitting a twin turbo kit that would fit into a chevelle (a-body).. any good sites that offer cost effective parts or a point in the right direction.
Last edited by gearhead1186; Nov 6, 2007 at 09:45 PM.
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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Last edited by Quickin; Nov 6, 2007 at 10:03 PM.
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By all means, please get his take on the warranty. If I've read and been told wrong, I need to know it.
4 years ago, a 540 on the street was considered way over the top. Now there's plenty of 632's running around in street trim.
Anybody that thought the days of muscle engines has passed has apparently not checked out what's happening these days. 10 years ago, technology to build the engines we're talking about didn't exist, particularly among the sportsman crowd. Now we can compare STREETABLE 700hp aluminum LS blocks and 1000+ hp big blocks in street cars. I bet the Ford guys ain't having this much fun!
4 years ago, a 540 on the street was considered way over the top. Now there's plenty of 632's running around in street trim.
Anybody that thought the days of muscle engines has passed has apparently not checked out what's happening these days. 10 years ago, technology to build the engines we're talking about didn't exist, particularly among the sportsman crowd. Now we can compare STREETABLE 700hp aluminum LS blocks and 1000+ hp big blocks in street cars. I bet the Ford guys ain't having this much fun!
By all means, please get his take on the warranty. If I've read and been told wrong, I need to know it.
4 years ago, a 540 on the street was considered way over the top. Now there's plenty of 632's running around in street trim.
Anybody that thought the days of muscle engines has passed has apparently not checked out what's happening these days. 10 years ago, technology to build the engines we're talking about didn't exist, particularly among the sportsman crowd. Now we can compare STREETABLE 700hp aluminum LS blocks and 1000+ hp big blocks in street cars. I bet the Ford guys ain't having this much fun!
4 years ago, a 540 on the street was considered way over the top. Now there's plenty of 632's running around in street trim.
Anybody that thought the days of muscle engines has passed has apparently not checked out what's happening these days. 10 years ago, technology to build the engines we're talking about didn't exist, particularly among the sportsman crowd. Now we can compare STREETABLE 700hp aluminum LS blocks and 1000+ hp big blocks in street cars. I bet the Ford guys ain't having this much fun!
TECH Veteran
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/555_900.asp
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Brodix has a new head out for bigger inch pump gas and/or smaller high compression engines. Their 3-Xtra CNC heads have 351cc intake runners, the runners on the new model are 331cc's. Cool thing is you'll only lose a few cfm with a smaller runner, indicating better port velocity. I have a set and they're sweet! The intake runner is raised around 1/4" which gives the incoming charge a very straight shot at the back of the valve. Matter of fact, when you look thru the intake port, you can see all but the lower edge of the intake valve. They take a dedicated intake but there are at least 3 available right now. Over 400cfm from a 331cc runner is impressive, no doubt! You'll have to call 'em for more info, they don't have 'em on their website yet. I could probably shoot a few pics if anyone is interested. I got mine with intention of using 'em on my short stroke/big bore Corvette engine but since I've decided to go with an LS for this street/canyon carver, it doesn't look like I'll be needing 'em. Anyone can feel free to pm me for more info.
Their pump gas 565 is a couple grand more, but I can guarantee the quality of parts and workmanship at Sunset Racecraft (www.sunsetracecraft.com). The pump gas 565 is the baby of the bunch, drool away at their 738 Iceman engine. Even with full exhaust out the dyno room, that SOB is LOUD and puts a real strain on the dyno! These guys got the first 6 of Brodix's new aluminum big blocks when they first came out for R&D and helped 'em work out the bugs and have had a hand in a good bit of Brodix's cylinder head development and testing. They're very highly regarded nationwide thanks to their attention to detail and workmanship. They do all my machine work and will as long as possible.
Their pump gas 565 is a couple grand more, but I can guarantee the quality of parts and workmanship at Sunset Racecraft (www.sunsetracecraft.com). The pump gas 565 is the baby of the bunch, drool away at their 738 Iceman engine. Even with full exhaust out the dyno room, that SOB is LOUD and puts a real strain on the dyno! These guys got the first 6 of Brodix's new aluminum big blocks when they first came out for R&D and helped 'em work out the bugs and have had a hand in a good bit of Brodix's cylinder head development and testing. They're very highly regarded nationwide thanks to their attention to detail and workmanship. They do all my machine work and will as long as possible.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Veteran
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Brodix has a new head out for bigger inch pump gas and/or smaller high compression engines. Their 3-Xtra CNC heads have 351cc intake runners, the runners on the new model are 331cc's. Cool thing is you'll only lose a few cfm with a smaller runner, indicating better port velocity. I have a set and they're sweet! The intake runner is raised around 1/4" which gives the incoming charge a very straight shot at the back of the valve. Matter of fact, when you look thru the intake port, you can see all but the lower edge of the intake valve. They take a dedicated intake but there are at least 3 available right now. Over 400cfm from a 331cc runner is impressive, no doubt! You'll have to call 'em for more info, they don't have 'em on their website yet. I could probably shoot a few pics if anyone is interested. I got mine with intention of using 'em on my short stroke/big bore Corvette engine but since I've decided to go with an LS for this street/canyon carver, it doesn't look like I'll be needing 'em. Anyone can feel free to pm me for more info.
Their pump gas 565 is a couple grand more, but I can guarantee the quality of parts and workmanship at Sunset Racecraft (www.sunsetracecraft.com). The pump gas 565 is the baby of the bunch, drool away at their 738 Iceman engine. Even with full exhaust out the dyno room, that SOB is LOUD and puts a real strain on the dyno! These guys got the first 6 of Brodix's new aluminum big blocks when they first came out for R&D and helped 'em work out the bugs and have had a hand in a good bit of Brodix's cylinder head development and testing. They're very highly regarded nationwide thanks to their attention to detail and workmanship. They do all my machine work and will as long as possible.
Their pump gas 565 is a couple grand more, but I can guarantee the quality of parts and workmanship at Sunset Racecraft (www.sunsetracecraft.com). The pump gas 565 is the baby of the bunch, drool away at their 738 Iceman engine. Even with full exhaust out the dyno room, that SOB is LOUD and puts a real strain on the dyno! These guys got the first 6 of Brodix's new aluminum big blocks when they first came out for R&D and helped 'em work out the bugs and have had a hand in a good bit of Brodix's cylinder head development and testing. They're very highly regarded nationwide thanks to their attention to detail and workmanship. They do all my machine work and will as long as possible.
They have their ULTRA STREET "582ci SS", 582ci/825 hp, with all the upgrades like Callies internals, coatings, etc.... A 250 shot fogger system installed, all electronics (MSD) and extras to receive it and install it in the car and start it up. $18,100 dyno tuned ready to install. Plus I would have to have custom exhaust, which costs $1,500 from a BADASS shop here in Lauderdale.
Its a low deck and they said it will fit into the WS6 with out any fabbing. That seems a little strange though that it'll fit right in. It has the same exterior dimensions as a 396ci engine, so maybe it will.
The warranty covers ALL parts that might fail in the 2 year period, but if a part takes the block out the block is not covered.
That would be pretty cool to have in a WS6 street car. They said it's just fine for daily street driving.
Just reporting what they said.
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Last edited by Quickin; Nov 7, 2007 at 11:32 AM.
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From: Dallas
That engine Quickin described...
you'll never be able to touch that performance per dollar with a LSx, no where close.
That kind of performance and price point is the very definition of a pipe dream to the small block world.
For a stout 402 build, badass hand ported Trickflows, solid roller, solid roller, knifed crank, rods, pistons, all premium stuff, including labor... I had a quote for $28K with a few thousand for slush fund... and that's including all the other stuff needed, like serious upgrades to the fuel system and a nice dry sump setup. What was the power? going for minimum of 550 on a 'stang dyno. Could run to 7500, but for my roadracing I don't want to stress it. Point of the story? You could try the LSX iron block and go nutso on it, but it'll cost way more than a BBC.
It sure wouldn't be as fun as a BBC at the end of the day.
1) Lazy engines are happy engines. The 427 fords back in the day proved this at 24hr LeMans.
2) Your not stressing a BBC remotely near as much as a LSx when you start going over the 600hp mark.
3) What other engine could sit there and induce brown notes to unsuspecting people?
damn, your making sad that I went with a road track car instead of a haul *** car.
you'll never be able to touch that performance per dollar with a LSx, no where close.
That kind of performance and price point is the very definition of a pipe dream to the small block world.
For a stout 402 build, badass hand ported Trickflows, solid roller, solid roller, knifed crank, rods, pistons, all premium stuff, including labor... I had a quote for $28K with a few thousand for slush fund... and that's including all the other stuff needed, like serious upgrades to the fuel system and a nice dry sump setup. What was the power? going for minimum of 550 on a 'stang dyno. Could run to 7500, but for my roadracing I don't want to stress it. Point of the story? You could try the LSX iron block and go nutso on it, but it'll cost way more than a BBC.
It sure wouldn't be as fun as a BBC at the end of the day.
1) Lazy engines are happy engines. The 427 fords back in the day proved this at 24hr LeMans.
2) Your not stressing a BBC remotely near as much as a LSx when you start going over the 600hp mark.
3) What other engine could sit there and induce brown notes to unsuspecting people?
damn, your making sad that I went with a road track car instead of a haul *** car.
I like the LS engines, I have an aluminum blocked 346 with a procharger that makes nearly 1000fwhp for two years now, havent had the pan off ever. I have owned/raced/built dozens of BBCs from a 706 DRCE to 1000hp+ NA 430 inch super light 10K rpm comp engines and like them as well.
Its very hard to take the LS side of things if you just look at head flow, size of parts and amount of reasonable priced (compared to LS engines anyhow) aftermarket parts. I have a feeling when the bigger inch tall deck LSX stuff comes around then you may start seeing some more bottom end failures, BBC stuff is stout down there but OTOH a cross bolted deep skirt block is no slouch either.
But there is more then just HP output IMO when doing a build. To me the nice thing about the LS engines is they are still something different, extremely easy to work on, never leak, are lightweight and they arent very common still so they attract a little more attention. My car with a 632 and nitrous would be much faster no doubt but people 'expect' a big inch BBC to be fast. I can honestly say that I have never had a leak free, never having to scrape gaskets, lightweight and reliable 9.0x fully streetable 3400lb car as this one with a BBC. But most of that I attribute to the wonderful combination of forced induction and EFI, plus commonly available widebands I didnt have 20 years ago
But in the end ts just hard to beat those giant canted valve heads and big ports plus 40 years of evolution. In answer to the original poster if I had a 70 bu it would just have to have a BBC, SBC and LS engines look lost under the hood of those things Either one will provide the power you want reliably so for me it would boil down to aesthetics, ET/weight goals and dollars and sense more than anything else.
Its very hard to take the LS side of things if you just look at head flow, size of parts and amount of reasonable priced (compared to LS engines anyhow) aftermarket parts. I have a feeling when the bigger inch tall deck LSX stuff comes around then you may start seeing some more bottom end failures, BBC stuff is stout down there but OTOH a cross bolted deep skirt block is no slouch either.
But there is more then just HP output IMO when doing a build. To me the nice thing about the LS engines is they are still something different, extremely easy to work on, never leak, are lightweight and they arent very common still so they attract a little more attention. My car with a 632 and nitrous would be much faster no doubt but people 'expect' a big inch BBC to be fast. I can honestly say that I have never had a leak free, never having to scrape gaskets, lightweight and reliable 9.0x fully streetable 3400lb car as this one with a BBC. But most of that I attribute to the wonderful combination of forced induction and EFI, plus commonly available widebands I didnt have 20 years ago
But in the end ts just hard to beat those giant canted valve heads and big ports plus 40 years of evolution. In answer to the original poster if I had a 70 bu it would just have to have a BBC, SBC and LS engines look lost under the hood of those things
Either one will provide the power you want reliably so for me it would boil down to aesthetics, ET/weight goals and dollars and sense more than anything else. 
All standard deck big blocks are dimensionally the same. Doesn't mean it's not work to shoehorn one in. Look at how tight an ls1 fits under our cowl. A big block is gonna be some work.
Teching In
Joined: May 2007
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You wouldn't be the first guy to make 1000 hp out of an LS or the first to put an LS in a Chevelle. Neither will be cheap. The 2 combined sound like a project for a guy that likes working on cars more than driving them. How many years do you have to do all this.
You could order the long block and EFI stuff for the BBC and be done. Spend the extra money on suspension, brakes etc to make the car drive better instead of just having a car with the wow factor engine.
My current car (import I am asshamed of) turned me off of being one of the first guys to do this or that with no real support for tuning or parts. That is why I am coming to the LS side. I want what everyone else has tried and tested before I lay down the cash. I am starting this time with a plan before I even buy the car.
Put a BBC in that thing like everyone else does and forget about it. EFI on that monster will be enough to get plenty of attention at the car shows. There is a reason they run BBC in power boats. They are strong!
You could order the long block and EFI stuff for the BBC and be done. Spend the extra money on suspension, brakes etc to make the car drive better instead of just having a car with the wow factor engine.
My current car (import I am asshamed of) turned me off of being one of the first guys to do this or that with no real support for tuning or parts. That is why I am coming to the LS side. I want what everyone else has tried and tested before I lay down the cash. I am starting this time with a plan before I even buy the car.
Put a BBC in that thing like everyone else does and forget about it. EFI on that monster will be enough to get plenty of attention at the car shows. There is a reason they run BBC in power boats. They are strong!
Last edited by GSXRofDFW; Nov 7, 2007 at 03:07 PM.
thats another reason i chose the BBC.. every possible build up has been done before and i guess for a lack of a better word, a BBC build is more established.
EFI is for sure... as of now im about 70% twin turbo and 30% procharger.. im gonna have the car for a while and i love the adjustability of turbos.. the packaging the plumbing is the only part that turns me off...
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
thats another reason i chose the BBC.. every possible build up has been done before and i guess for a lack of a better word, a BBC build is more established.
EFI is for sure... as of now im about 70% twin turbo and 30% procharger.. im gonna have the car for a while and i love the adjustability of turbos.. the packaging the plumbing is the only part that turns me off...
EFI is for sure... as of now im about 70% twin turbo and 30% procharger.. im gonna have the car for a while and i love the adjustability of turbos.. the packaging the plumbing is the only part that turns me off...
The king of STREETABLE 7 second cars...TT BBC or TT SBC and now even the TT LSX iron 454ci:
Is www.nelsonracingengines.com
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On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Indianapolis, IN
I’m fully aware of the superiority LS engines have through computer engine management. Maybe I’m just showing my age (Old school); But, I’d go with a World Products PN: 108056, 572 C.I.D. Merlin Crate Engine. This is a normally aspirated engine producing 695 Horsepower and 705 Torque on pump gas.
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...5&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...5&autoview=sku
Last edited by cybernco; Nov 7, 2007 at 04:54 PM.
I’m fully aware of the superiority LS engines through computer engine management. Maybe I’m just showing my age (Old school); But, I’d go with a World Products PN: 108056, 572 C.I.D. Merlin Crate Engine. This is a normally aspirated engine producing 695 Horsepower and 705 Torque on pump gas.
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...5&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...5&autoview=sku