View Poll Results: 427 or 416 or solid roller 416
427
47
78.33%
416
7
11.67%
solid roller 416
6
10.00%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll
Katech 427 or L92 416?
12-15-2007, 09:00 PM
#43
I'd like to hear some more info on the 4.125x4.125 being too much for reving to 7000 RPM's?Do you have any data or experience to show this isn't a good idea?I've been seeing a ton of these 440 builds popping up lately with very strong results with the right piston and ring pack.Traver
12-15-2007, 09:01 PM
#44
solid roller is picking up steam...
What size headers am I going to need? 1 7/8 stepped to 2" or 2" primaries.. what about the size of the collector as well? I'm in the middle of having a custom y pipe made, if I need to change the diameter size on the pipe I need to know now.
What size headers am I going to need? 1 7/8 stepped to 2" or 2" primaries.. what about the size of the collector as well? I'm in the middle of having a custom y pipe made, if I need to change the diameter size on the pipe I need to know now.
12-16-2007, 07:39 AM
#45
solid roller is picking up steam...
What size headers am I going to need? 1 7/8 stepped to 2" or 2" primaries.. what about the size of the collector as well? I'm in the middle of having a custom y pipe made, if I need to change the diameter size on the pipe I need to know now.
What size headers am I going to need? 1 7/8 stepped to 2" or 2" primaries.. what about the size of the collector as well? I'm in the middle of having a custom y pipe made, if I need to change the diameter size on the pipe I need to know now.
12-16-2007, 10:13 AM
#46
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I'd like to hear some more info on the 4.125x4.125 being too much for reving to 7000 RPM's?Do you have any data or experience to show this isn't a good idea?I've been seeing a ton of these 440 builds popping up lately with very strong results with the right piston and ring pack.Traver
I plan on getting the 440 myself. Same price, about 15-25ish more hp than a 427. And from what I've seen, they last.
12-16-2007, 10:42 AM
#48
Katech is very conservative and build motors that last. In a super extreme environment (like the c6r stuff) the 4.1 may prove to be a detriment to reliability. However, there are tons of 4.1 stroke cranks that have been out there for a long time and they are perfect, with multiple revs 7+.
I plan on getting the 440 myself. Same price, about 15-25ish more hp than a 427. And from what I've seen, they last.
I plan on getting the 440 myself. Same price, about 15-25ish more hp than a 427. And from what I've seen, they last.
Although I understand what your saying the fact remains that the L92 427 isnt putting out as much power as the 4.125 bore 427 does.
As far as the reliability there are more than one builder that indicates as such on the 4.1 crank. I dont want to take chances. The talk about the wrist pin and piston is not just a made up fear factor. Why take a chance?
the 4.125x4.125 440 seems like a nice option but I'm going to trust Katech for advice on RPMS. They are the expert. I looked at it and started pricing it out but decided against it.
12-16-2007, 09:00 PM
#50
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Although I understand what your saying the fact remains that the L92 427 isnt putting out as much power as the 4.125 bore 427 does.
As far as the reliability there are more than one builder that indicates as such on the 4.1 crank. I dont want to take chances. The talk about the wrist pin and piston is not just a made up fear factor. Why take a chance?
the 4.125x4.125 440 seems like a nice option but I'm going to trust Katech for advice on RPMS. They are the expert. I looked at it and started pricing it out but decided against it.
As far as the reliability there are more than one builder that indicates as such on the 4.1 crank. I dont want to take chances. The talk about the wrist pin and piston is not just a made up fear factor. Why take a chance?
the 4.125x4.125 440 seems like a nice option but I'm going to trust Katech for advice on RPMS. They are the expert. I looked at it and started pricing it out but decided against it.
A couple of other things it would be cool to hear their comments on are the following thoughts: It seems to me if you have the LS7 or the Katech sleeved block that, according to previous posts in this thread, have sleeves that are something like .5" deeper than the LS2 block that going with a 4.100 on these blocks would be better than a 4.000 on a LS2 block.
I guess that anytime you add any length the angles in the engine change and it can cause different stresses in different places, but we are just talking 1/10 of an inch over a stock LS7. I'm not intending to say it OK at all, just throwing some questions out there for the experts to address.
One other question I would ask is if someone decided to go with the 4.100 stroke, could the bottom end stability differences be addressed by upgrading to billet main caps and/or adding a main girdle?
I guess if I'm going to spend the money to do a big cube project, I would like step up to something that is more unique since you can now get a 427 from the factory, not to mention the extra torque would help with my fat pig GTO
12-16-2007, 09:09 PM
#51
We typically keep maximum mean piston speeds around 4600fpm on street engines. With a 4.000" stroke that would be 7000rpm redline, 4.125" stroke 6800rpm redline.
Your question about powerband is more so dictated by cylinder head and camshaft design than bore and stroke.
12-16-2007, 10:58 PM
#53
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Good thread,..I'm in the planning mode myself on a 440 cid,
and ? the 4.100 stroke, haven't heard any bad things,... to early to tell,I don't know.
Katech: do you guys build 440s? Whats your opion on this stroker motor?
I'm wanting a street&strip car (more street) with 600+rwhp.
Thanks
and ? the 4.100 stroke, haven't heard any bad things,... to early to tell,I don't know.
Katech: do you guys build 440s? Whats your opion on this stroker motor?
I'm wanting a street&strip car (more street) with 600+rwhp.
Thanks
12-16-2007, 10:59 PM
#54
The 4.125 x 4.125 is the 441 setup.The 4.100 x 4.125 would be a 438 C.I.Now if you would do a 4.100 crank and say bore the block to 4.135.....wa la, there's your 440.Anyhow,I would like to know how much less stress would be put on the combination running the 4.100 versus the 4.125 crank?Would it be that different?I plan on going one of these 2 routes with my 427 and would like to pick the best option since it will be a "mostly"street application.Traver
12-16-2007, 11:09 PM
#55
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The 4.125 x 4.125 is the 441 setup.The 4.100 x 4.125 would be a 438 C.I.Now if you would do a 4.100 crank and say bore the block to 4.135.....wa la, there's your 440.Anyhow,I would like to know how much less stress would be put on the combination running the 4.100 versus the 4.125 crank?Would it be that different?I plan on going one of these 2 routes with my 427 and would like to pick the best option since it will be a "mostly"street application.Traver
I was thinking the 4.100 did the 440 because both SDPC and Texas Speed say they use the 4.100 in their 440's. SDPC says 4.127 bore and TSP says 4.125 bore. Who knows, but I'm really interested in the out come of this discussion regardless.
12-17-2007, 07:31 AM
#57
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Could be, but since you asked, I say probably not and that its worth discussing along with all the other questions that are out there.
Here why: It's really 438 (4.125 x 4.100) to 441 (4.125 x 4.125) or maybe even 443 (4.135 x 4.125) so it may seem like hair splitting. However, when it comes down to it, this whole thread could be considered splitting hairs as we are debating whether or not 1/10 of an inch of stroke is OK or not.
I'm sure there are some that would say this whole discussion of 427 vs 438 (or what ever) is splitting hairs. You could argue that a 427 at 7K rpm is going to make as much power as a 441 at 6800rpm. But we are talking about street set ups that will probably be cammed for a nice fat torque curve and not spin to 7K.
Let's fire up the air dyno on this for a minute. I assume that since we are having this discussion we are all considering fairly optimized set ups, meaning trying to squeeze every last HP we can out of it. In a set up like this it would be reasonable to expect 1.35 RWHP per Cubic inch. Multiply that by the the possible 5 CI swing mentioned above and you have about 7 RWHP which is pretty much exactly what we expect to get, on the air dyno, out of an EWP that we are willing to pay $600.00 plus for.
I'll take 7 free RWHP anyday.
Here why: It's really 438 (4.125 x 4.100) to 441 (4.125 x 4.125) or maybe even 443 (4.135 x 4.125) so it may seem like hair splitting. However, when it comes down to it, this whole thread could be considered splitting hairs as we are debating whether or not 1/10 of an inch of stroke is OK or not.
I'm sure there are some that would say this whole discussion of 427 vs 438 (or what ever) is splitting hairs. You could argue that a 427 at 7K rpm is going to make as much power as a 441 at 6800rpm. But we are talking about street set ups that will probably be cammed for a nice fat torque curve and not spin to 7K.
Let's fire up the air dyno on this for a minute. I assume that since we are having this discussion we are all considering fairly optimized set ups, meaning trying to squeeze every last HP we can out of it. In a set up like this it would be reasonable to expect 1.35 RWHP per Cubic inch. Multiply that by the the possible 5 CI swing mentioned above and you have about 7 RWHP which is pretty much exactly what we expect to get, on the air dyno, out of an EWP that we are willing to pay $600.00 plus for.
I'll take 7 free RWHP anyday.
Last edited by dci67; 12-17-2007 at 09:14 AM.
12-17-2007, 09:08 AM
#58
Could be, but since you asked, I say probably not and that its worth discussing along with all the other questions that are out there.
Here why: It's really 438 (4.125 x 4.100) to 441 (4.125 x 4.125) or maybe even 443 (4.135 x 4.125) so it may seem like hair splitting. However, when it comes down to it, this whole thread could be considered splitting hairs as we are debating whether or not 1/10 of an inch of stroke is OK or not.
I'm sure there are some that would say this whole discussion of 427 vs 438 (or what ever) is splitting hairs. You could argue that a 427 at 7K rpm is going to make as much power as a 441 at 6800rpm. But we are talking about street set ups that will probably be cammed for a nice fat torque curve and not spin to 7K.
Let fire up the air dyno on this for a minute. I assume that since we are having this discussion we are all considering fairly optimized set ups, meaning trying to squeeze every last HP we can out of it. In a set up like this it would be reasonable to expect 1.35 RWHP per Cubic inch. Multiply that by the the possible 5 CI swing mentioned above and you have about 7 RWHP which is pretty much exactly what we expect to get, on the air dyno, out of an EWP that we are willing to pay $600.00 plus for.
I'll take 7 free RWHP anyday.
Here why: It's really 438 (4.125 x 4.100) to 441 (4.125 x 4.125) or maybe even 443 (4.135 x 4.125) so it may seem like hair splitting. However, when it comes down to it, this whole thread could be considered splitting hairs as we are debating whether or not 1/10 of an inch of stroke is OK or not.
I'm sure there are some that would say this whole discussion of 427 vs 438 (or what ever) is splitting hairs. You could argue that a 427 at 7K rpm is going to make as much power as a 441 at 6800rpm. But we are talking about street set ups that will probably be cammed for a nice fat torque curve and not spin to 7K.
Let fire up the air dyno on this for a minute. I assume that since we are having this discussion we are all considering fairly optimized set ups, meaning trying to squeeze every last HP we can out of it. In a set up like this it would be reasonable to expect 1.35 RWHP per Cubic inch. Multiply that by the the possible 5 CI swing mentioned above and you have about 7 RWHP which is pretty much exactly what we expect to get, on the air dyno, out of an EWP that we are willing to pay $600.00 plus for.
I'll take 7 free RWHP anyday.
I meant when I did the math I came up wth 440 and not 441.. no big deal in my book, I honestly dont think you'll see 7 free whp from a 440 to a 441 but what ever. That was good stuff. As far as a street setup I'm not looking for a "street" setup. This is a weekend warrior car. It doesnt need to be smooth... with a nice big fat torque curve, it just needs to be as nasty as it can be.
SHow me one 4.1 crank 427 thats putting down 560-570 and I'll re-think the L92 427. It's about power not just saving money
12-17-2007, 09:27 AM
#59
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HAhahaha 7 rwhp free? who's giving that away, I'll take two.
I meant when I did the math I came up wth 440 and not 441.. no big deal in my book, I honestly dont think you'll see 7 free whp from a 440 to a 441 but what ever. That was good stuff. As far as a street setup I'm not looking for a "street" setup. This is a weekend warrior car. It doesnt need to be smooth... with a nice big fat torque curve, it just needs to be as nasty as it can be.
SHow me one 4.1 crank 427 thats putting down 560-570 and I'll re-think the L92 427. It's about power not just saving money
I meant when I did the math I came up wth 440 and not 441.. no big deal in my book, I honestly dont think you'll see 7 free whp from a 440 to a 441 but what ever. That was good stuff. As far as a street setup I'm not looking for a "street" setup. This is a weekend warrior car. It doesnt need to be smooth... with a nice big fat torque curve, it just needs to be as nasty as it can be.
SHow me one 4.1 crank 427 thats putting down 560-570 and I'll re-think the L92 427. It's about power not just saving money
If your goals are a weekend warrior, then the 427 might be your best bet, put a nice big cam in it and spin it to 7K+. I'm really interested in the higher cubes because, although it's not my only vehicle, I really want a nice fat torque curve and decent street manners and will give up a little top. At least at this point in my research, 6800 rpm should be plenty for me.
I agree on the power vs money thing. How about a 403 with AFR 205's putting down 557? see below:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/803383-403-ls2-afr-205is-lays-down-550-rwhp.html
12-17-2007, 09:41 AM
#60
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https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/825609-precision-race-components-ls7-cylinder-head-engine-dyno-results.html
I plan to go with some form of ls7 head and ported Ls7 intake if this is the way I end up going. I've been looking very hard at Katech as well and considering the same possible combo's of bore/stroke you are. We are very close in our thought processes here.