I want a built engine got 14K
I'm going through this exact process now and have placed all the orders, it should be in that 11-14k range.
I'm going with an LME 440, TFS 235's, a 25x/25x cam, and a ported Fast 90 and ls2 tb.
From what I've been seeing, it seems like the cathedral port stuff is making the best average power. May want to consider this style.
I'm going with an LME 440, TFS 235's, a 25x/25x cam, and a ported Fast 90 and ls2 tb.
From what I've been seeing, it seems like the cathedral port stuff is making the best average power. May want to consider this style.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
I think Vengeance did some a while back or someone and I have done many as have others. They run pretty good but most don't really get into the LS1Tech posting game. I know of some that are on here and will post their results though soon probably. They make from 575-650 at the wheels depending on how radical they are. You can basically run a smaller cam with the LS7 stuff is probably the best plug for it and the LS7 manifold can pull a little higher in rpm as well but the cathedral port stuff is also very very good.
I think Vengeance did some a while back or someone and I have done many as have others. They run pretty good but most don't really get into the LS1Tech posting game. I know of some that are on here and will post their results though soon probably. They make from 575-650 at the wheels depending on how radical they are. You can basically run a smaller cam with the LS7 stuff is probably the best plug for it and the LS7 manifold can pull a little higher in rpm as well but the cathedral port stuff is also very very good.
How could a sheetmetal, ls7 headed setup not out perform a fast 90 cathedral port setup? That vengeance 454 did 625, right?
In peak rwhp, it may. But a sheetmetal ls7 is a 5k rpm+ motor or it will be a dog. In most applications below 7200 rpms or so, the cathedral port stuff is still hard to beat.
The vengence 454 did 625 but was a tfs 235/fast 90. Perhaps they did an ls7 set up also.
The vengence 454 did 625 but was a tfs 235/fast 90. Perhaps they did an ls7 set up also.
So you're telling me, just cause it has a ls7 style sheetmetal intake, that a 440 - 454ci motor with ported ls7 heads under 5k rpm it will be a "dog?" For some reason a doubt that.
I just have a hard time believeing that given the same cubic inch motor, that a cathedral ported GENIII head with a ported fast 90 strapped on it is going to out perform a LS7 headed sheetmetal intake setup. Pretty much anywhere in the band.
This is why i'd like to see some numbers from ls7 headed 440+ ci motors. I haven't seen squat. Even if it DOES run just a ported ls7 intake. HPE (are they still a sponsor? sorry if not) has ported head / cammed z06 making 608 / 550 with a nice curve. I can't believe that if you give that same motor another 30ci that the right combo wont make 650+ easy.
Not that i'm ******* cathedral port heads, they've been proven time and time again here. Maybe it's the fact that not many people are playing with the ls7 stuff cause it's expensive and relatively new? Maybe they havn't totallt figured it out yet? I intend to find out either way!
And yes, the Vengeance 454 I saw was cathedral port too, just like the few other 454's i've seen. Someone has to have an ls7 headed one in the works besides me.
This is a great post and right to the heart of it. I don't understand when people say that they want something that will make 800 RWHP and don't understand why they cannot get a warranty on it.
Not giving a warranty has nothing to do with the quality of work performed. There are just too many things that a customer can do that is out of our hands.
Example #1-
Say we install a motor and were able to tune the car in house. Lets say the car has a Procharger on it. The customer gets the car home goes to the track and wants to get a better ET. The customer changes pullies to add another 10 lbs of boost but does not change the tune. Motor goes boom. Put the pullies back on and say its our fault?
#2
Customer has us build a 14.1:1 solid roller race only engine. Customer decides a year later he wants to street drive the car a little and decides to start using pump gas and gets a crappy batch of fuel, lays into the car hard on the highway detonates the bearings out of it. That is our fault?
#3
Customer does not like to change oil or do any maintence. Not to mention he took his air filter out at the track to pick up some ET/MPH. Debris gets in the motor and scores the bearings. This results in a failure.
#4
Customers car is a 6 speed. Customer isnt familiar with new found power and bangs the car off the limiter at every shift, maybe misses a shift and bends valves. This again, not because we built the engine wrong.
I can go on forever with these scenarios and why we cannot give out a warranty with our high performance applications. There are too many variables that are out of our control.
We have not had a warranty for 40 years, nor do I see us giving one. We have not been around for 40 years because of crappy quality either I can assure you that. We have been around for 40 years because we have the equipment and the knowledge to build engines that make power and last in racing and street applications alike. Our reputation speaks for itself, we do not need a warranty to validate that.
Example #1-
Say we install a motor and were able to tune the car in house. Lets say the car has a Procharger on it. The customer gets the car home goes to the track and wants to get a better ET. The customer changes pullies to add another 10 lbs of boost but does not change the tune. Motor goes boom. Put the pullies back on and say its our fault?
#2
Customer has us build a 14.1:1 solid roller race only engine. Customer decides a year later he wants to street drive the car a little and decides to start using pump gas and gets a crappy batch of fuel, lays into the car hard on the highway detonates the bearings out of it. That is our fault?
#3
Customer does not like to change oil or do any maintence. Not to mention he took his air filter out at the track to pick up some ET/MPH. Debris gets in the motor and scores the bearings. This results in a failure.
#4
Customers car is a 6 speed. Customer isnt familiar with new found power and bangs the car off the limiter at every shift, maybe misses a shift and bends valves. This again, not because we built the engine wrong.
I can go on forever with these scenarios and why we cannot give out a warranty with our high performance applications. There are too many variables that are out of our control.
We have not had a warranty for 40 years, nor do I see us giving one. We have not been around for 40 years because of crappy quality either I can assure you that. We have been around for 40 years because we have the equipment and the knowledge to build engines that make power and last in racing and street applications alike. Our reputation speaks for itself, we do not need a warranty to validate that.
.
Not that i'm ******* cathedral port heads, they've been proven time and time again here. Maybe it's the fact that not many people are playing with the ls7 stuff cause it's expensive and relatively new? Maybe they havn't totallt figured it out yet? I intend to find out either way!
Not that i'm ******* cathedral port heads, they've been proven time and time again here. Maybe it's the fact that not many people are playing with the ls7 stuff cause it's expensive and relatively new? Maybe they havn't totallt figured it out yet? I intend to find out either way!
What ever.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo fwiw, i had an ls7 top end and am going back to a cathedral port setup.
yes. now maybe we should not use 'dog' as that is open to interpretation. however, on the same size motor, a small intake runner fast 90 setup (ie an afr 225, tfs 235 etc) will have WAY more power than a sheet metal intake ls7 combo below 5k. you're missing the point of a sheetmetal if you think otherwise.
dont believe, thats fine. runner length has a massive effect on where a motor will make power, just like a camshaft, head characteristics, etc.
fwiw, i had an ls7 top end and am going back to a cathedral port setup.
dont believe, thats fine. runner length has a massive effect on where a motor will make power, just like a camshaft, head characteristics, etc.
fwiw, i had an ls7 top end and am going back to a cathedral port setup.
Just like a few years ago when the big cams were coming out for the stock motors. People said "ohhh man a cam that big will make your car useless on the bottom end." Which was bs. I drove numerous huge cam only cars with stock gears and it drove perfectly fine. Of course there was a loss, there has to be. But not NEARLY like people were making it out to be.
I'm open to either right now on my setup. But all i'm looking for is some solid numbers from some ls7 stuff to make the decision more concrete. If nobody does it, who's to say it won't work? How was your setup with the ls7, why are you switching? What was your setup / numbers?
Well to be honest I wasnt tryng to be with that statement. It was a shot at the truth to make you open your eyes. You want a sheet metal or Vic intake am I wrong?
You've been told I dont know how many times and there are threads to this fact as well that the sheet metal or Vic won't do any good until after 5000 rpms.
And I'm the dick? You dont listen to anyone who says no to the intake you want and yet I'm the dick. OK, I'm a dick. But at least I'm not so ******* stubborn that I dont just listen to myself and decide that I know whats better over someone who makes a living at it.
Only reason I popped back into the thyread was I saw Racer posting some info and wanted to see what he said. Otherwise I'm unsubscribed to it, its a waste of time.
You've been told I dont know how many times and there are threads to this fact as well that the sheet metal or Vic won't do any good until after 5000 rpms.
And I'm the dick? You dont listen to anyone who says no to the intake you want and yet I'm the dick. OK, I'm a dick. But at least I'm not so ******* stubborn that I dont just listen to myself and decide that I know whats better over someone who makes a living at it.
Only reason I popped back into the thyread was I saw Racer posting some info and wanted to see what he said. Otherwise I'm unsubscribed to it, its a waste of time.
I understand that the runner length plays a part in the power band, but I also believe people make it out to be way more of a big deal then it is. Like the car won't wanna move below 4k rpm.
I'm open to either right now on my setup. But all i'm looking for is some solid numbers from some ls7 stuff to make the decision more concrete. If nobody does it, who's to say it won't work? How was your setup with the ls7, why are you switching? What was your setup / numbers?
I'm open to either right now on my setup. But all i'm looking for is some solid numbers from some ls7 stuff to make the decision more concrete. If nobody does it, who's to say it won't work? How was your setup with the ls7, why are you switching? What was your setup / numbers?
I think that getting caught up in flow numbers can be misleading, the ls7's look sexy on paper and a flowbench but they are also flowing that much air through 280 cc'ish runners. As an example most of us know, the AFR's make sick power and have stellar track results....they don't have big flow numbers but they flow well through small ports.
Keep in mind the exhaust ports on the LS7's are not up to par with the intake. A TFS or AFR head has much better exhaust ports and can still flow 340-350+ or so.
'When in doubt, hog it out' doesn't always work as well as it should/could.
Well to be honest I wasnt tryng to be with that statement. It was a shot at the truth to make you open your eyes. You want a sheet metal or Vic intake am I wrong?
You've been told I dont know how many times and there are threads to this fact as well that the sheet metal or Vic won't do any good until after 5000 rpms.
And I'm the dick? You dont listen to anyone who says no to the intake you want and yet I'm the dick. OK, I'm a dick. But at least I'm not so ******* stubborn that I dont just listen to myself and decide that I know whats better over someone who makes a living at it.
Only reason I popped back into the thyread was I saw Racer posting some info and wanted to see what he said. Otherwise I'm unsubscribed to it, its a waste of time.
You've been told I dont know how many times and there are threads to this fact as well that the sheet metal or Vic won't do any good until after 5000 rpms.
And I'm the dick? You dont listen to anyone who says no to the intake you want and yet I'm the dick. OK, I'm a dick. But at least I'm not so ******* stubborn that I dont just listen to myself and decide that I know whats better over someone who makes a living at it.
Only reason I popped back into the thyread was I saw Racer posting some info and wanted to see what he said. Otherwise I'm unsubscribed to it, its a waste of time.
I believe vengence has overlaid a tfs 440 on a sheet metal 454 ls7 setup...someone did if I recall correctly. And, as expected, it made a few more peak hp at max rpm...but other than that, it was behind. I dont recall the details exactly.
i had a 422 (4.100x4) with hand finished ls7 top end, a 246/257 112. It struggled to make 500 rwhp. Now I know this is an exception and not the rule, as lots of LS7's make good power. Just like anything, I've known a few who didn't however.
I think that getting caught up in flow numbers can be misleading, the ls7's look sexy on paper and a flowbench but they are also flowing that much air through 280 cc'ish runners. As an example most of us know, the AFR's make sick power and have stellar track results....they don't have big flow numbers but they flow well through small ports.
Keep in mind the exhaust ports on the LS7's are not up to par with the intake. A TFS or AFR head has much better exhaust ports and can still flow 340-350+ or so.
'When in doubt, hog it out' doesn't always work as well as it should/could.
I think that getting caught up in flow numbers can be misleading, the ls7's look sexy on paper and a flowbench but they are also flowing that much air through 280 cc'ish runners. As an example most of us know, the AFR's make sick power and have stellar track results....they don't have big flow numbers but they flow well through small ports.
Keep in mind the exhaust ports on the LS7's are not up to par with the intake. A TFS or AFR head has much better exhaust ports and can still flow 340-350+ or so.
'When in doubt, hog it out' doesn't always work as well as it should/could.
Interesting. Good info as always Greg
EDIT. read that wrong. I glanced at it and thought you were talking about intake porting. lol
but yes, that make sense.
Last edited by jermzz; Jan 8, 2008 at 09:57 AM.
trust me, i really wanted to do another ls7 setup. i hate the fast 90 price and looks! 
I know call me a girl. But after taking a full year off, and researching parts, combos etc...I couldn't help but notice that it seems like the TFS stuff is making big power....and with lots of very reputable shops recommending cathedral stuff, its hard to ignore that.
some shops i know of recommending cathedral port stuff (or at least the employee i talked with)
speed inc
vengence
tea
lme
I know call me a girl. But after taking a full year off, and researching parts, combos etc...I couldn't help but notice that it seems like the TFS stuff is making big power....and with lots of very reputable shops recommending cathedral stuff, its hard to ignore that.some shops i know of recommending cathedral port stuff (or at least the employee i talked with)
speed inc
vengence
tea
lme
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
As long as you have enough cylinder head the two will make similar power reguardless of design but the bigger LS7 can run a smaller cam on intake side. It's just the combination that will be different. If you're spinning an XXX size motor to XXX rpm then it will usually make about the same XXX hp as long as the heads and intake can keep up. If you get big enough or high enough in rpm then the larger head will outperform the smaller assuming they are both good designs. The good cathedral ports are really good basically so they will still fill up even these pretty big engines at hydraulic roller rpm ranges very well.