MAC4264

Brian at Wiseco is the the guy that hung the phone up on me! He did not like my measuring device in picture three but it does tell the story. Also, if you clean the black line off you can see with the naked eye a discolored line were the piston stops the taper and goes straight. Eight different people including the seceratry could see this line and he told me there was no way I could see this. The point I'm tring to make with him and everyone else is at that line and below controls your clearance for your piston, right or wrong? Because if it does then it gains to much clearance at BDC it is that simple. Sure he is going to say it works it is his piston, we sold 1000's of them and those guys never had problems that is the thinking of anybody, maybe a few of them were like me the first go around and new that they couldn't speak up when there motor broke or is using oil. He was some what short with me and Wiseco customer service is thumbs down.

LSXS10

iTrader: (37)

Brian is who i talked to about them....No problems, and he was pretty helpfull..

MAC4264

I have .018 rock at TDC. .048 at BDC and .380 up from BDC I have .028. Before I started the thread I had already made my mined up on what to do to fix this engine. That is what the .380 measurement is in there for, that is where the piston will be with stock stroke which will make it a 393 ci. Seeing the .028 makes me know that I have made a better move.

briannutter

I've helped and will continue to help out our customers, but being combative with me from the very first sentence on the phone isn't cool. Multiple attempts to get you to grab a caliper or micrometer to work through the numbers, but you weren't up to listening. A tape measure to measure cylinder length and then the inability to measure a skirt at multiple points up through the skirt. I can only help some people so much. Again, I'm willing to help and still am, but you need to email me at bnutter@wiseco.com AFTER you do me the basic courtesy of working with proper measuring instruments.

Fact is, without a lot of Wiseco's work on skirt design and giving pointers to forum members, most of the forum members wouldn't know what they were looking at.

Guys, sorry for my bluntness here, but it's late. I get really steamed about once a year and this was the one.

-Nutter

MAC4264

Again I rest my case, you would not here me tell you clearance on the phone and you must not be able to read clearance either. I told you the same things that is in the first post. I even have more info now as stated in post 23. You treat me as if I mic my piston with a tape measure. I told you yes at your proper measuring point it had .004 you said that piston should be 4.151 +/-.0002. I then told you it had .008 to .010 between there and the oil ring and you said there is no way. I must be able to mic at mutiple points. You can do me the basic courtesy of apologizing for telling me "your full of ****." and hanging up on me. So you can PM me when your ready to listen.

Sandbox

I know I am a newbie here but I just started a 6.0 iron block with a 4 inch stroke and 6.2 long rods with the Probes. I know the compression height is tight but it should move the pin an extra .075 up the bore on BDC. This should help reduce the rock shouldn't it? IT is a D/D but I have seen so many guys running these packages with "normal" oil usage it must be a do able combo.
Kind of like the 347 Ford stroker deal back in the beginning. Now days is is a great motor with guys on both sides of the pin in the oil ring argument and lots have fast and oil stingy cars with the oil ring sharing the piston pin hole so this looks like that. Lots of smart guys on both sides but each has a way to skin the cat that works for him. Dont want to take sides in this just feed back on the extra .075 of rod length.
Thanks
Sand

racer7088

Where the skirts ends up at BDC and how it is shaped and how much total piston is on the bore and how much skirt is in the bore and what clearance you have all control the rock and if the rings stay connected with the cylinder walls. We have not had complaints about any of the Probe deals we have done either but like I said they also use a lower taper piston that does not rock that much at all either. They are a little loght for any big power adders in my opinion but NA they seem to work great. We used them in two of the first 500 RWHP 347s we did.

racer7088

MAC, I have never been able to "see" a break point on a new piston ever on any brand so I don't know what you are talking about either and I see new pistons and measure them from nearly every brand amost every day? You have to mic them and mic them correctly. We spend weeks getting guys to be able to mic stuff correctly at SAM because most people can't unless they do it all the time. Keep in mind that I am not saying that you can't but that Brian is very used to people claining stuff that they are measuring wrong. I used to see it everyday single day where I was before.

Also it's not a rumour or people being protected that are trying to say these pistons work fine. They do and we have used them by the hundreds and the members and other vendors of this board have used them by the thousands and you have not even run the pistons in question yourself yet. Keep in mind that this is coming from the guy that actually started all those threads a long time ago and settled on Wiseco and Diamond as the pistons being manufactured correctly as opposed to many other brands that do or did have big issues at that time. Hopefully those companies have adjusted their shapes but I know Wiseco and Diamond have.

MAC4264

I have miced my fare share of parts. That is one reason for all of this. Again I will provide even more information, I miced this piston at least 5 times now and have gotten the same measurement every time I guess it's my bad for not showing them but it still tells all in my opinion. You ,who ever you are may feel different thats fine but at 1.625 to 1.500 is questionable and to close for comfort. This is coming form a guy that will run .030 total piston to valve on a 10200 RPM engine (intake side).

The length is measured from the top.
4.1513 2.240
4.1514 2.125
4.1510 1.625
4.1500 1.500
4.1493 1.375
4.1483 1.250
4.1462 1.125
4.1445 1.000

At 1.500 to 1.625 is at the edge of the block (also were we see the line in the piston, maybe stars and moon aligned to give perfect reflection I don't know.) So it safe to say with my cylinder honed to 4.1550 +.0002

Clearance is
.005 at 1.500
.0057 at 1.375
.0067 at 1.250
.0088 at 1.125
.0105 at 1.000

1.00 to 1.500 really would not matter in most cases, but the fact that 1.625 to 2.240 is out of the block at BDC they don't count. Yes it at first seemed to me at 1.500 it would be fine but in reality 1.500 to 1.250 is what is really holding it in the bore at that point explains extra rock clearance as stated above. Now if anyone honed there block to 4.156the would gain .001 through entire clearance. Now for a side note So we don't question my bore measurements. I used a Sunnen CV-616 honing machine with torque plate and Sunnen dial bore gage and no this is not my first or second hone job. Likewise I have used a piston similar to this but did not go into great measuring as these, READ FIRST POST. In my opinion most 402/ 408 motors where bought in crate form as a shortblocks and most of them are still not running, my2cents. Use the search and do the research and you will fine this to be true if you look for awhile.

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

So what are you trying to save MAC? That a 4" stroke on the lsx series is a mistake ? Or that Wiseco isnt a good choice? Not sure what your trying to say here.

MAC4264

LS motor in general as they have to short of cylinder as others have stated as well. A piston manufacture probaly can do something to make it work with a bandaid. The set I have I don't think will work at all. The purpose of this is to bring awareness because the piston manfaucture isn't going to tell you to check this. I also think they should be telling people that some light to moderate oil use could be notice with an oil ring rail. That exsits but know one whats to admit to it either. Tall deck blocks were not made for more and more stroke but made to make longer than stock strokes work right, again just a opinion.

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

So in your opinion a 4" stroke should not be used and the piston is a bandaid for it?
Thats what your saying??

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

I'm going to follow this to see the out come. I believe a 4 inch stroke works well in LSx packages. Plenty of people have built these sort of packages with no oiling problems. You sound very knowledgable, but do you think it could be something as simple as an improperly gapped ring package or ring failure?

1.8t

Doesn't the LS7 come with a 4" stroke from the factory??? Hell, it revs to 7k as well.

ramairws6

iTrader: (33)

Wow...................running a 4.125 stroke with Wiseco pistons here and no oil usage yet!!

racer7088

I have the unique oppurtunity to see maybe 65-75% of all of our stuff dynoed right in front of us and everyone and then continue to see the Houston peeps all the time around town at the shops or at the strip and I have not seen these problems either on correctly built engines that we have done with Wiseco and/or Diamond pistons.

Like I said also in any particular week we are fixing ones like that and they never have much of anything to do with the parts or pistons if they are from Diamond or Wiseco. Now I have had to change pistons on some older stuff and other brands to get something that worked correctly and now several other places are copying me.

I was doing it 7 years ago.

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

I just dropped off my short block at my machine shop and all 8 of my JE Nitrous pistons had severe skirt damage. My engine builder wants me to go down to a 3.9" stroke in order to resolve the rocking problem as he says that the LS2 skirts are too short for a 4" stroke. The LS7 sleeve is longer so as to alleviate this problem. I am wondering if using a different piston would allow me to continue to run the 4" stroke. My other problem is that my LS2 is already at 4.030" bore and the pistons rocking have made my bores slightly out of round. The builder believes that the roundness can be resolved by going over another .005. Is it a big deal going over another .005 (4.035) on a stock LS2 casting besides the fact that I will need to order custom pistons?

MAC4264

Here is an update. I bought Mahle piston for the same combo 4.155x 4.00 6.125 rod. This makes me feel better.

Lenghts are measured from the top.

1.000 4.1501
1.125 4.1506
1.250 4.1516
1.375 4.1520
1.500 4.1520
1.625 4.1521
1.750 4.1520
1.875 4.1521

!.875 is the last measurement in length. At TDC piston will rock .025, and at BDC .028
Instructions say to hone to intended size and proper clearance (.003) will be achevied. 4.155 will give me .003 so I will install these for sure and the 4".

P.S. Wiseco piston customer service is thumbs down still. Made attempt to get reimbursed for the other set and end any despute but NO they did not want to help again what a surprise but apparently Racer7088 can make them work.

MAC4264

Thank you 98z28cobrakiller for an honest post. Everyone needs to read your thread
"LS2 402 way low Dyno numbers. Help please?" (April 6,2006) That engine had problems from the get go. I didn't read some of your other threads that talked about knock retard but I'm sure you know now that is caused from oil, and piston rock in the cylinder. I feel you can go .005 more with that block that is only .0025 to the side, but I have never done it so do some research (I would give it a go though). Stick with that builder whoever he is. If I had to buy customs at this point I would ask some serious questions and would start at Diamond for the custom. The contact over there is Michael Panetta I believe. A for sure is to buy another block and and buy a set of Mahle. You could sell the other block to some one else that is willing to fight all of the politics.

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

The original problems that I had with the low dyno numbers really didnt have anything to do with this problem. My cam was in a tooth out. That motor did burn rediculuos amounts of oil but was since rebuilt into a 408 with the JE pistons. The car was definetly moving out well at the time that it came apart (9.41 @ 144 w/ 2 blown headgaskets and a 3650lb race weight daily driver). Since my post above, I spent some time on the phone talking to Tony Mamo and going over everything with him. He told me not to give up on the block or the stroke but agreed that all pistons are not created equal (despite the fact that the JE Nitrous piston isnt exactly a budget item and shouldnt be a slauch (sp?)). He gave me some contact info for Brook over at Callies. I spoke to him this morning and he is also recommending going down the Diamond road for the custom piston. Come to find out that he knows my engine builder and said that he would discuss this with him also. He told me that he will call me back with some options shortly.