VR1 Racing oil
10-22-2008, 10:26 PM
#62
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The vr1 is great oil. I work at a local auto parts store and have attended Valvoline seminars and have talked with their reps. The main reason it says not street legal is because the high levels of zinc phosphorous will over time clog the catalytic converter. Valvoline actually has a full synthetic version of this also and they just released a version working with Jack Roush. The rep told me the Jack Roush oil is even better than the vr1 oil because its full synthetic and loaded with zddp/zinc and specifically made within his specs. They are also using a special type of zinc that wont clog converters as easy. You can check out and find the info on his website also. Ill probably be switching over to this my next oil change. Thanks, Joe
10-24-2008, 06:39 PM
#64
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I hope this will explain the oil issues.
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil thru the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline and deisel engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package, then we have taken every precaution to coat the cylinder walls, pistons, and rings with an anti-wear agent. However, it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP and we require the addition of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) for a minimum of the first 90-minutes. For forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil thru the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline and deisel engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package, then we have taken every precaution to coat the cylinder walls, pistons, and rings with an anti-wear agent. However, it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP and we require the addition of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) for a minimum of the first 90-minutes. For forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
10-29-2008, 04:14 AM
#65
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I hope this will explain the oil issues.
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil thru the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline and deisel engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package, then we have taken every precaution to coat the cylinder walls, pistons, and rings with an anti-wear agent. However, it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP and we require the addition of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) for a minimum of the first 90-minutes. For forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil thru the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline and deisel engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package, then we have taken every precaution to coat the cylinder walls, pistons, and rings with an anti-wear agent. However, it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP and we require the addition of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) for a minimum of the first 90-minutes. For forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
wow, how can I tell how much ZDDP is in the oils I plan on using for my first break in???
I looked at my Shell Rotella T 15w40 and I didnt see any
I was planning on running 2 qt Valvoline VR1 oil 20w 50 and 4 qt Shell Rotella T 15w40, and maybe adding a very small amount of GM EOS that I was luckily able to find....
is this a bad combo of oils?
how much EOS should I add??
thanks and sorry to Hijack.
10-29-2008, 11:30 AM
#66
Not a thread Hijack at all.
If I were running your motor for the first time, I would run a full pan of VR1 (6 quarts), in the 15W40 or 20w50 weight, with a bottle of Red STP oil additive. This will add plenty of the anti-wear additives that you're looking for, and will be relatively cheap insurance. If you run a cheap oil filter for the first few runs, then it'll cost you less than 40 bucks for each change.
This is the process I go through
First Start-Up:
Load Start-Up Tune
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Run till motor comes to temp, filling coolant and checking for any leaks/loose wires/exhaust leaks/strange sounds/etc...
Drain Oil/Filter
First 500 miles
Tune
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Drain Oil/Filter
500-1000 Miles
Tune some more
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Drain Oil/Filter
Your break-in should be complete, drain, check for anything abnormal in the oil (lots of metal still left, bearing material, etc..) Continue using that oil combination if you'd like, I still do
Good Luck.
If I were running your motor for the first time, I would run a full pan of VR1 (6 quarts), in the 15W40 or 20w50 weight, with a bottle of Red STP oil additive. This will add plenty of the anti-wear additives that you're looking for, and will be relatively cheap insurance. If you run a cheap oil filter for the first few runs, then it'll cost you less than 40 bucks for each change.
This is the process I go through
First Start-Up:
Load Start-Up Tune
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Run till motor comes to temp, filling coolant and checking for any leaks/loose wires/exhaust leaks/strange sounds/etc...
Drain Oil/Filter
First 500 miles
Tune
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Drain Oil/Filter
500-1000 Miles
Tune some more
6-qts VR1
1-btl Red STP oil additive
1-Oil Filter
Drain Oil/Filter
Your break-in should be complete, drain, check for anything abnormal in the oil (lots of metal still left, bearing material, etc..) Continue using that oil combination if you'd like, I still do
Good Luck.
10-29-2008, 01:18 PM
#67
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I dont have a start up tune, but i have my old tune from my LS1 H/C car, that should work for the first hundred miles til I get a tune and change the injectors and intake...
10-29-2008, 01:50 PM
#68
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package, then we have taken every precaution to coat the cylinder walls, pistons, and rings with an anti-wear agent. However, it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP and we require the addition of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) for a minimum of the first 90-minutes. For forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
- ZDDP is awesome for anti-wear, correct?
- During break-in on the hydraulic roller engines, we want some wear in order to seat the rings, correct?
- People say to not use synthetic because it prevents break-in, correct?
- SO why do we want ZDDP if it also is great for anti-wear?
- Why not just use cheap conventional oil for the first 1000mi so that rings seat well, then switch to ZDDP-rich oils or to synthetic?
I know opinions vary, but I've always wondered this. Why would we want an anti-wear additive when we WANT to wear the rings initially?
10-29-2008, 06:44 PM
#69
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wow, how can I tell how much ZDDP is in the oils I plan on using for my first break in???
I looked at my Shell Rotella T 15w40 and I didnt see any
I was planning on running 2 qt Valvoline VR1 oil 20w 50 and 4 qt Shell Rotella T 15w40, and maybe adding a very small amount of GM EOS that I was luckily able to find....
is this a bad combo of oils?
how much EOS should I add??
thanks and sorry to Hijack.
I looked at my Shell Rotella T 15w40 and I didnt see any
I was planning on running 2 qt Valvoline VR1 oil 20w 50 and 4 qt Shell Rotella T 15w40, and maybe adding a very small amount of GM EOS that I was luckily able to find....
is this a bad combo of oils?
how much EOS should I add??
thanks and sorry to Hijack.
Brian
10-29-2008, 07:16 PM
#70
Explain this for me:
- ZDDP is awesome for anti-wear, correct?
- During break-in on the hydraulic roller engines, we want some wear in order to seat the rings, correct?
- People say to not use synthetic because it prevents break-in, correct?
- SO why do we want ZDDP if it also is great for anti-wear?
- Why not just use cheap conventional oil for the first 1000mi so that rings seat well, then switch to ZDDP-rich oils or to synthetic?
I know opinions vary, but I've always wondered this. Why would we want an anti-wear additive when we WANT to wear the rings initially?
- ZDDP is awesome for anti-wear, correct?
- During break-in on the hydraulic roller engines, we want some wear in order to seat the rings, correct?
- People say to not use synthetic because it prevents break-in, correct?
- SO why do we want ZDDP if it also is great for anti-wear?
- Why not just use cheap conventional oil for the first 1000mi so that rings seat well, then switch to ZDDP-rich oils or to synthetic?
I know opinions vary, but I've always wondered this. Why would we want an anti-wear additive when we WANT to wear the rings initially?
The biggest fear in a new engine is cyl wall scuffing due to rough hone which is used to let the rings smooth the bore. Because LS pistons are so short (strokers more so) the piston rocks which can score the bore. The zinc and non synthetic oil seems to the best bet for break-in.
10-29-2008, 07:33 PM
#71
Your tune file from your last motor will be fine given that your injector flow rates are correct. Thats the biggest concern; people going from stock injectors to 42-60lbs, and you'll wash out the cylinders without adjusting the tune. Only problem i could see in your case is idle issues, and i guarantee it'll be running quite lean, so you'll probably have stumbling/stalling issues until you get your tune updated. You may also find that you'll have to increase the size/drill a hole in your throttle plate to get enough air during idle. This has helped a lot in getting idles correct.
10-29-2008, 08:33 PM
#72
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Your tune file from your last motor will be fine given that your injector flow rates are correct. Thats the biggest concern; people going from stock injectors to 42-60lbs, and you'll wash out the cylinders without adjusting the tune. Only problem i could see in your case is idle issues, and i guarantee it'll be running quite lean, so you'll probably have stumbling/stalling issues until you get your tune updated. You may also find that you'll have to increase the size/drill a hole in your throttle plate to get enough air during idle. This has helped a lot in getting idles correct.
I have stock 2002 (28# I think), injectors... I will run these for the first 100 or so miles, then I will get a tune and install my FAST 36# injectors and theyll recallibrate the injector flow, im sure, etc...
10-29-2008, 08:48 PM
#73
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No problem. The government has mandated that the oil companies remove the high levels of zinc and phosphorus from the diesel oils as of last year. That is why we scrambled to find a new oil to use. The Rotella and other oils for diesel applications will do you no good. Just use the VR-1 and you will be in good shape. If you are not running cats it is best to continue using that oil for the life of the engine. Use on bottle of EOS.
Brian
Brian
Ok since I have 4 qt of Rotella T in my engine ( I dont wanna waste it) Im gonna add 2 more qt of VR1 and I have some STP additive, its a 15oz bottle, maybe I only put 1/3 of the bottle (it says it contains ZDDP)...and this mixture im gonna let it idle till full temp , then change oil + filter..
Then next time I will use 6qt of VR1... and a full bottle of EOS until 20 miles driven... and repeat... again til 120 miles... EOS is hard to obtain here so I may use STP instead..(if this is okay) - but I heard someone saying red bottle, but mine is a blue bottle...
so is my use of RotellaT terrible? , I will only be idling it the first time...
or is my plan bad and I should just drain that unused Rotella T and just use 6qt VR1 from the start??
also 20w 50?? or something lighter?
because I was using mobil 5w30 before in my LS1, I understand this is a new motor, but the whole life use VR1??
sorry I hope all these make sense...
10-29-2008, 09:02 PM
#74
This thread has repeatedly said, in a nutshell, that ZDDP prevents wear.
And I'm aware of the lifters. I mentioned that because I know the reason for high ZDDP in flat tappet engines is more for the lifters than for anything else.
10-30-2008, 12:30 AM
#75
Oops I'd forgotten that.
So then why do we say the rings need to get seated in? That's them wearing. They wear the uneven edges to match the shape of the cylinder.
This thread has repeatedly said, in a nutshell, that ZDDP prevents wear.
And I'm aware of the lifters. I mentioned that because I know the reason for high ZDDP in flat tappet engines is more for the lifters than for anything else.
So then why do we say the rings need to get seated in? That's them wearing. They wear the uneven edges to match the shape of the cylinder.
This thread has repeatedly said, in a nutshell, that ZDDP prevents wear.
And I'm aware of the lifters. I mentioned that because I know the reason for high ZDDP in flat tappet engines is more for the lifters than for anything else.
The reason why you don't run synthetic motor oil during the break'in period is because of the FILM that is created on the metal surfaces, which can prevent the bedding in of the rings onto the bore surface. Non-synthetic motor oil does not retain the same film that the sythetic oil does.
Thats about the extent of my knowledge, I don't know the exact science behind it, but thats the general idea I believe. I would certainly like to know more about this as well, so maybe someone with more science behind it can elaborate.
Last edited by Haans249; 10-30-2008 at 12:54 AM.
10-30-2008, 01:39 AM
#76
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Once again, the rings do not wear during the breakin period, maybe a little, but the majority of the "seating" comes from the smoothing of the rough hatching done in the bore, which will form the "sealing"/"seating" surface for the rings, hence the rings "seating" onto the bore.
The reason why you don't run synthetic motor oil during the break'in period is because of the FILM that is created on the metal surfaces, which can prevent the bedding in of the rings onto the bore surface. Non-synthetic motor oil does not retain the same film that the sythetic oil does.
Thats about the extent of my knowledge, I don't know the exact science behind it, but thats the general idea I believe. I would certainly like to know more about this as well, so maybe someone with more science behind it can elaborate.
The reason why you don't run synthetic motor oil during the break'in period is because of the FILM that is created on the metal surfaces, which can prevent the bedding in of the rings onto the bore surface. Non-synthetic motor oil does not retain the same film that the sythetic oil does.
Thats about the extent of my knowledge, I don't know the exact science behind it, but thats the general idea I believe. I would certainly like to know more about this as well, so maybe someone with more science behind it can elaborate.
well I know that synthetic oil molecules are all the same size, whereas dino oil has smaller and larger particles and is incosnsistent... this is true, unless my auto teachers lied to me..
10-30-2008, 09:33 AM
#77
I kind of understand what you're saying about the film strength of the synthetic. But, the rings DO wear in the seating process though. That's why people say to vary RPMs when breaking in... it's so that the rings have surface angles to seal at all RPMs. The hatching actually is there to wear the rings.
