New LT1 for 2014 6.2l alum block
10-30-2012, 10:27 PM
#182
The above is what happens when a co is saved by the government we should let them fail and die when we had the chance. Time to buy a Ford at least they are still American owned.
Bye bye Gm my next ride will be built by the Ford family.
10-30-2012, 11:26 PM
#183
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Sooooo there was a Robot on here?
Thinking about GM re-using the LT1 name, I don't think it will effect them negatively in anyway. Google searches yes, this forum and others yes. Even after market websites. (LT1 Long Tube Headers, 93-97 models only!)
But GM doesn't have "our" lt1's on the lot anymore, they don't make money off these cars now, and the amount of people bringing their 90's lt1 to a dealer has to be a minuscule number. So why not bring it back and F everyone else who still uses this name routinely.
Catching up here.
rip
Thinking about GM re-using the LT1 name, I don't think it will effect them negatively in anyway. Google searches yes, this forum and others yes. Even after market websites. (LT1 Long Tube Headers, 93-97 models only!)
But GM doesn't have "our" lt1's on the lot anymore, they don't make money off these cars now, and the amount of people bringing their 90's lt1 to a dealer has to be a minuscule number. So why not bring it back and F everyone else who still uses this name routinely. Catching up here.
Big bugz rip
10-31-2012, 07:37 PM
#184
The difference is we can afford current gm performance and not have 6 figure jobs. Apparently gm's current stance to the normal hot rodder and the people who want these cars is a big FU So their solution for us to have more power is to bend over spend more money and get the next model up.
The above is what happens when a co is saved by the government we should let them fail and die when we had the chance. Time to buy a Ford at least they are still American owned.
Bye bye Gm my next ride will be built by the Ford family.
The above is what happens when a co is saved by the government we should let them fail and die when we had the chance. Time to buy a Ford at least they are still American owned.
Bye bye Gm my next ride will be built by the Ford family.
Simplest solution is to not use the factory ECM/PCM in general. There is nothing magical about this engine that a generic EFI system cannot control it (within reason)
When GM switched from OBDI to OBDII in LT1s, tuning options were non-existant. What did people do? Used the older PCM
When multiple EFI engines flooded the market and each had some specific control system, what happened to universalize management? Megasquirt
Im sure the aftermarket will eventually get into this PCM (they said the DI v6's were uncrackable too didnt they?), so dont get too bothered. Who cares about the warranty being voided? Didnt need some exotic ECM to alert a service tech that the computer has been flashed, it already exists
11-05-2012, 02:06 PM
#186
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
I'm guessing you have some ties to GM as you are speaking with what appears to be some insider knowledge. But there are a few questions I have which are not clear from what you are saying.
You state
So, are you saying the data at rest within the ECM itself is encrypted? What I am trying to understand is if basically the "program" in the ECM is encrypted, and you simply need the right "key" to access that data.
So, are you saying the ECM in the LT1 is gong to use some form of encryption to communicate in real time back to GM? You state they are going to use TLS to communicate back to GM to prevent tamerping/listening. The only time I could see the ECM talking back to GM "over a data network" would be when you are at a dealer and you were connected to a Diag tool like a Tech II. If the Diag tool connects back to GM, I can see that GM would use some for of encrypted connection (ssl, IPsec, whatever) for transporting the data from the vehicle back to GM. I can't see any vehice being conencted to a "data network" or communicating back to GM other than that. But I wanted to better understand the point you were trying to make.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security
TLS and SSL are basically the crypto protocol for providing security over the internet.
I question this. My guess is it is more around powertrain warranty issues, and just end user modification. But I'll take it at face value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography
All public key encryption requires two keys the public key and the private key. The private key is the most important and the one you don't share. The public key you can give out to anyone ad is used for communication.
So what that sounds like is typical public key encryption. The public key encrypts the data that is being sent to GM, the private key is then used to decrypt the data. The main thing is that its effectively impossible to use the the public key to derive the private key.
Honestly what I take from what you have written thuse far is that GM will use public key encryption running over TLS for the ECM to talk back to GM over the internet for updates when you take it to the dealership.
Now, this may or may not have any bearing on what efforts GM uses if it tries to lock the PCM/ECM. Many oter vendors have been succesful in locking/encrypting PCM/ECM. But, wha tI am saying is what you have provided htus far is good informaiton, but doesn't appear to necessarily relate.
So, I understand your description of the DI injection system.
I understand you have a low pressure electric pump, and a high pressure lobe driven pump. I understand you have injectors that have to be commanded open by the ECM at a certain "time".
What I do not understand is how the end user is in need of any more "protection" than the LFX v6 and the HO Ecotec, and the Duramax diesels that can already be tuned today? All of those vehicles use DI of some sort, and all those vehicles can be tuned. So, I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make here and I was wondering if you could help clarify it a bit more for me.
Also, I'm trying to understand what the ECM is or is not looking for. So, as you alluded to up top, the ECM is probably going to use PK/TLS to communicate to GM for updates.
What I don't understand is what prevents you frm getting into the ECM to start with? Is the ECM encrypted? If the ECM is encrypted, then if you manage to crack that encryption, then you can modify the ECM at wiil.
The issue I can see is if you take the car to a dealership and they could see the ECM has been modified and look to void the powertrain warranty. This is much like today where when there is a powertrain issue they do a checksum of the PCM OS, and if the checksum is bad they flag the vehicle. The simple solution for htat is set it so the checksum comes out correctly, or reflash to stock before visitng the dealer to have the correct checksum before being connected to a Tech II.
You state
To better understand why it will be nearly impossible to crack. The ECM uses (TLS) transport layer protocol allows the ECM and fuel table applications to communicate across a data network via the internet back to GM in a way designed to prevent listening and tampering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security
TLS and SSL are basically the crypto protocol for providing security over the internet.
This is for your protection and safety.
The public key encryption on this ECM requires 2 keys.
All public key encryption requires two keys the public key and the private key. The private key is the most important and the one you don't share. The public key you can give out to anyone ad is used for communication.
One to access the servers here at GM and once the integrity is validate then a second key encryption is provide to the ECM within the vehicle to allow diagnostics & restore of the fuel tables & fuel event system.
Honestly what I take from what you have written thuse far is that GM will use public key encryption running over TLS for the ECM to talk back to GM over the internet for updates when you take it to the dealership.
Now, this may or may not have any bearing on what efforts GM uses if it tries to lock the PCM/ECM. Many oter vendors have been succesful in locking/encrypting PCM/ECM. But, wha tI am saying is what you have provided htus far is good informaiton, but doesn't appear to necessarily relate.
Many of you will have questions about (YOUR PROTECTION). I will get in front of the ball and explain.
The ECM controls the exact point in time the fuel control solenoids closes. What this means you need a very fast computer to control the High Pressure Fuel solenoid cycles which is contained on the high pressure cam driven pump itself. (This ECM is basically a small PC with applications)
The ECM needs the crankshaft and cam position, fuel pressure sensor value to be
able to actuate/control the high pressure pump solenoid. This is dealing with the volume of fuel and all pressure at the same time. If the solenoid would remain closed at all time it would supply 2,175 psi all the time, which would cause all kinds of risk with the injection event. Resulting in total loss of the engine/vehicle.
The fuel system consist of low pressure side (pump in fuel tank) and High Pressure Fuel Pump (camshaft driven by lobe). The High Pressure Solenoid on the pump has zero errors. The ECM monitors the High Pressure Solenoid On/Off signaling duty cycles in real time as an added measure of security (VOLTS & AMPS). Thus this is the learning curve, reason for this is to actuate the fuel pressure control solenoid at a specific camshaft degree value of rotation learned. Self contained ECM system the system will lock if tampered the solenoid will remain open, fuel is then returned back to the fuel inlet and no pressure or volume will be seen. For your safety the engine will not start.
with regards,
Bigg_Gunz
The ECM controls the exact point in time the fuel control solenoids closes. What this means you need a very fast computer to control the High Pressure Fuel solenoid cycles which is contained on the high pressure cam driven pump itself. (This ECM is basically a small PC with applications)
The ECM needs the crankshaft and cam position, fuel pressure sensor value to be
able to actuate/control the high pressure pump solenoid. This is dealing with the volume of fuel and all pressure at the same time. If the solenoid would remain closed at all time it would supply 2,175 psi all the time, which would cause all kinds of risk with the injection event. Resulting in total loss of the engine/vehicle.
The fuel system consist of low pressure side (pump in fuel tank) and High Pressure Fuel Pump (camshaft driven by lobe). The High Pressure Solenoid on the pump has zero errors. The ECM monitors the High Pressure Solenoid On/Off signaling duty cycles in real time as an added measure of security (VOLTS & AMPS). Thus this is the learning curve, reason for this is to actuate the fuel pressure control solenoid at a specific camshaft degree value of rotation learned. Self contained ECM system the system will lock if tampered the solenoid will remain open, fuel is then returned back to the fuel inlet and no pressure or volume will be seen. For your safety the engine will not start.
with regards,
Bigg_Gunz
I understand you have a low pressure electric pump, and a high pressure lobe driven pump. I understand you have injectors that have to be commanded open by the ECM at a certain "time".
What I do not understand is how the end user is in need of any more "protection" than the LFX v6 and the HO Ecotec, and the Duramax diesels that can already be tuned today? All of those vehicles use DI of some sort, and all those vehicles can be tuned. So, I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make here and I was wondering if you could help clarify it a bit more for me.
Also, I'm trying to understand what the ECM is or is not looking for. So, as you alluded to up top, the ECM is probably going to use PK/TLS to communicate to GM for updates.
What I don't understand is what prevents you frm getting into the ECM to start with? Is the ECM encrypted? If the ECM is encrypted, then if you manage to crack that encryption, then you can modify the ECM at wiil.
The issue I can see is if you take the car to a dealership and they could see the ECM has been modified and look to void the powertrain warranty. This is much like today where when there is a powertrain issue they do a checksum of the PCM OS, and if the checksum is bad they flag the vehicle. The simple solution for htat is set it so the checksum comes out correctly, or reflash to stock before visitng the dealer to have the correct checksum before being connected to a Tech II.
11-05-2012, 02:23 PM
#187
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Ok, I just went back and found the thread where you talk about virtualization of the ECM.
So, like most everything else processor power continues to grow, and GM has a PCM with enough processor to run multiple "virtual" machines.
What you have agreed with is:
The server is in the same ECM as the virtual client I think, it's not trying to uplink to gm directly, it holds the fuel tables and "database" of what it should be, and the virtual client monitors and controls the equipment. It's using IP to talk to each other, and the client expects to see a certain Mac address for the server, which is why he says you can't force the client to look at another server, similar to when an IT guy locks a switch to only look at one Mac address of a computer, device or server.
As far as the uplink with gm, I don't believe it is real time, it's probably just when you take it in for service, gm can see if you have been dicking with it and can void your warranty, like on the new diesels if they see your ECM has been flashed a certain number of times. There is no way it could be a constant uplink because if you went in a "no service area" or that satellite got damaged all cars would stop dead.
So, like most everything else processor power continues to grow, and GM has a PCM with enough processor to run multiple "virtual" machines.
As I've stated... The ECM and please refer to these as the ECM's is Now a virtual client. The ECM has a microprocessor that is now virtualize. Unlike before.. What that means is means is the ENGINE MANAGEMENT DEVELOPERS put more than one operating system on this single processor. The hypervisor separates between each OS. The OS modeling through a new authoring feature and IP specification import function. Through TLS and TLM as well as can be used in a wide variety of applications including systems such as engine and transmission control, braking systems, power steering systems, chassis domain control, airbags, advanced driver assistance systems, and infotainment systems.
The virtualization easily allows the system to overwrite any changes or deny unauthorized access. This ECM contains software tools enabling greater visibility and controllability into the system software execution.
The virtualization easily allows the system to overwrite any changes or deny unauthorized access. This ECM contains software tools enabling greater visibility and controllability into the system software execution.
The server is in the same ECM as the virtual client I think, it's not trying to uplink to gm directly, it holds the fuel tables and "database" of what it should be, and the virtual client monitors and controls the equipment. It's using IP to talk to each other, and the client expects to see a certain Mac address for the server, which is why he says you can't force the client to look at another server, similar to when an IT guy locks a switch to only look at one Mac address of a computer, device or server.
As far as the uplink with gm, I don't believe it is real time, it's probably just when you take it in for service, gm can see if you have been dicking with it and can void your warranty, like on the new diesels if they see your ECM has been flashed a certain number of times. There is no way it could be a constant uplink because if you went in a "no service area" or that satellite got damaged all cars would stop dead.
11-05-2012, 04:24 PM
#188
i hear the 'uncrackable', and it sucks, but i agree with most that it will be able to be tuned. i think most people outside of gm engineers and high tech computer nerds are smarter. theres 12 year old kids out there that can hack some computer systems...
if it is un tunable, i think the sales will be killed, no one with a 427 vette is going to trade in there 600hp car for a 450hp car that cant be modded...there's many people that buy these new vehicles and have tons of mods before 500 miles are on it...they will have to be a way to get into the computer....gm is wasting money on stupid **** if they are making it so the pcms communicate with a server...another reason why foreign car sales are kicking the hell out of american car sales...over priced stuff is all were getting from out own car makers...they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they make it un tunable...thats never been gm's style...**** damn near all the LS stuff is interchangable.....gm has been budget performance since day one...i hope they realize this..
if it is un tunable, i think the sales will be killed, no one with a 427 vette is going to trade in there 600hp car for a 450hp car that cant be modded...there's many people that buy these new vehicles and have tons of mods before 500 miles are on it...they will have to be a way to get into the computer....gm is wasting money on stupid **** if they are making it so the pcms communicate with a server...another reason why foreign car sales are kicking the hell out of american car sales...over priced stuff is all were getting from out own car makers...they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they make it un tunable...thats never been gm's style...**** damn near all the LS stuff is interchangable.....gm has been budget performance since day one...i hope they realize this..
11-05-2012, 04:59 PM
#189
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
I think if GM is actually setting up a little virtual network inside the ECM that is using IP to communicate between the various virtual ECMs, and it is encrypting traffic, and encrypting the flash using some sort of public key, that it is entirely likely that it can be cracked as those technologies are much better understood than proprietary protocols.
11-05-2012, 06:40 PM
#190
As far as the uplink with gm, I don't believe it is real time, it's probably just when you take it in for service, gm can see if you have been dicking with it and can void your warranty, like on the new diesels if they see your ECM has been flashed a certain number of times. There is no way it could be a constant uplink because if you went in a "no service area" or that satellite got damaged all cars would stop dead.
I wonder if OnStar will be standard equipment in the new Gen V cars???
11-05-2012, 08:25 PM
#192
Allow me to explain why it will be tough to crack the ECM. The ECM uses a "public key encryption"/ Stateful connection to prevent tampering from gear heads. To better understand why it will be nearly impossible to crack. The ECM uses (TLS) transport layer protocol allows the ECM and fuel table applications to communicate across a data network via the internet back to GM in a way designed to prevent listening and tampering. This is for your protection and safety. The public key encryption on this ECM requires 2 keys. One to access the servers here at GM and once the integrity is validate then a second key encryption is provide to the ECM within the vehicle to allow diagnostics & restore of the fuel tables & fuel event system. Many of you will have questions about (YOUR PROTECTION). I will get in front of the ball and explain.
The ECM controls the exact point in time the fuel control solenoids closes. What this means you need a very fast computer to control the High Pressure Fuel solenoid cycles which is contained on the high pressure cam driven pump itself. (This ECM is basically a small PC with applications)
The ECM needs the crankshaft and cam position, fuel pressure sensor value to be
able to actuate/control the high pressure pump solenoid. This is dealing with the volume of fuel and all pressure at the same time. If the solenoid would remain closed at all time it would supply 2,175 psi all the time, which would cause all kinds of risk with the injection event. Resulting in total loss of the engine/vehicle.
The fuel system consist of low pressure side (pump in fuel tank) and High Pressure Fuel Pump (camshaft driven by lobe). The High Pressure Solenoid on the pump has zero errors. The ECM monitors the High Pressure Solenoid On/Off signaling duty cycles in real time as an added measure of security (VOLTS & AMPS). Thus this is the learning curve, reason for this is to actuate the fuel pressure control solenoid at a specific camshaft degree value of rotation learned. Self contained ECM system the system will lock if tampered the solenoid will remain open, fuel is then returned back to the fuel inlet and no pressure or volume will be seen. For your safety the engine will not start.
with regards,
Bigg_Gunz
The ECM controls the exact point in time the fuel control solenoids closes. What this means you need a very fast computer to control the High Pressure Fuel solenoid cycles which is contained on the high pressure cam driven pump itself. (This ECM is basically a small PC with applications)
The ECM needs the crankshaft and cam position, fuel pressure sensor value to be
able to actuate/control the high pressure pump solenoid. This is dealing with the volume of fuel and all pressure at the same time. If the solenoid would remain closed at all time it would supply 2,175 psi all the time, which would cause all kinds of risk with the injection event. Resulting in total loss of the engine/vehicle.
The fuel system consist of low pressure side (pump in fuel tank) and High Pressure Fuel Pump (camshaft driven by lobe). The High Pressure Solenoid on the pump has zero errors. The ECM monitors the High Pressure Solenoid On/Off signaling duty cycles in real time as an added measure of security (VOLTS & AMPS). Thus this is the learning curve, reason for this is to actuate the fuel pressure control solenoid at a specific camshaft degree value of rotation learned. Self contained ECM system the system will lock if tampered the solenoid will remain open, fuel is then returned back to the fuel inlet and no pressure or volume will be seen. For your safety the engine will not start.
with regards,
Bigg_Gunz
Nothing is impossible. If a Human built it...a Human can figure out how to bypass it. Its just a matter of time. If an "unbreakable" system could be built, we wouldn't need anti-virus software on our PCs...
11-06-2012, 01:32 AM
#194
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You sound very intelligent concerning the operation of the computer operation of the new LT1. Much more intelligent than 99% of the members here. But you're basic lack of understanding of the other criticisms of this un-tuneable engine, makes me think you're simply RETARDED outside of your engineering expertise.
Why re-hash the LT1 monicker ?
They would do these things to PCM's IMO save warranty costs & emissions requirements.
Their not really concerned about the true gearhead who is gonna rip the cats off & mod the heck out of it.
Their looking @ the cars they're selling & have to warranty.
Heck I'm happy where still getting 450+ hp cars coming with this new 36.5 CAFE standard coming.
Trust me I think the future for automotive looks dim in some aspects.
11-06-2012, 08:44 AM
#195
I'm wondering if the issue with tuning is going to be the tools that aftermarket companies are using to reverse engineer these computers - how many ECMs do they fry in the process of trying to hack them, and what is the cost of fixing or replacing them when they do so? If these computers are that much more complex, it becomes a little less palatable, because they'll inevitably end up torching even more in the process of trying to figure out how they work/communicate with all of the other systems in the car.
All Mopar had to do was go with a rolling encryption key on the latest Hemis to cause the aftermarket grief. If GM wants to protect their intellectual property, I'm thinking they'll do it regardless of the small percentage of people that want to modify their vehicles. After all, LS1Tech (or the internet for that matter), as hard as it may be to believe, does not represent an accurate cross-section of the average GM buyer. Most people just don't care that they won't be able to tune their cars.
All Mopar had to do was go with a rolling encryption key on the latest Hemis to cause the aftermarket grief. If GM wants to protect their intellectual property, I'm thinking they'll do it regardless of the small percentage of people that want to modify their vehicles. After all, LS1Tech (or the internet for that matter), as hard as it may be to believe, does not represent an accurate cross-section of the average GM buyer. Most people just don't care that they won't be able to tune their cars.
11-06-2012, 09:44 AM
#196
I'm wondering if the issue with tuning is going to be the tools that aftermarket companies are using to reverse engineer these computers - how many ECMs do they fry in the process of trying to hack them, and what is the cost of fixing or replacing them when they do so? If these computers are that much more complex, it becomes a little less palatable, because they'll inevitably end up torching even more in the process of trying to figure out how they work/communicate with all of the other systems in the car.
All Mopar had to do was go with a rolling encryption key on the latest Hemis to cause the aftermarket grief. If GM wants to protect their intellectual property, I'm thinking they'll do it regardless of the small percentage of people that want to modify their vehicles. After all, LS1Tech (or the internet for that matter), as hard as it may be to believe, does not represent an accurate cross-section of the average GM buyer. Most people just don't care that they won't be able to tune their cars.
All Mopar had to do was go with a rolling encryption key on the latest Hemis to cause the aftermarket grief. If GM wants to protect their intellectual property, I'm thinking they'll do it regardless of the small percentage of people that want to modify their vehicles. After all, LS1Tech (or the internet for that matter), as hard as it may be to believe, does not represent an accurate cross-section of the average GM buyer. Most people just don't care that they won't be able to tune their cars.
The engineering behind the metal is becoming a commodity and the really valuable stuff is programming and algorithms in the ECM. (It would be interesting to see how GM's R&D breaks down between the physical design and software design.) I'm sure this isn't so much about keeping the public safe or limiting liability as it is protecting the OEM's intellectual property. (If I were to create a competing engine, I wouldn't go an start designing pistons. I'd crack the competitor's computer first and see how they are using their sensors and controls.)
An interesting illustration of the above effect are the recent developments with Navistar. (International Truck) They made a bad bet on engine emissions control technology and it may cause parts of the company to be sold off. Now they are in a scramble to purchase competitors engines for their trucks and integrate competitors' emissions technology in to their engines.
11-06-2012, 10:00 AM
#197
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Without a lot more informaiton on what is and is not being done in the ECM it is hard to say what can and cannot be done. But, what I will say is if GM has actually gone the route of using off the shelf technology like virtualization, off the shelf encryption, etc... there is probably much greater probabilty of someone being able to crack it based simply on the numebr of folks who are familiar with the technologies themselves and the possbile vulnerabilities.
11-06-2012, 09:47 PM
#200
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I can assure you GM can and will void the warranty of the entire power train if the ECM is tampered with, additionally GM will void any extended warranty purchased as well. GM is data centers all over the globe are centralized and linked. Going to alternate dealerships will NOT work. Once the ECM is plug into the encrypted data is fetched by the servers.
If the servers detector tampering within the ECM the server will send a void notice to the dealership where the impaired vehicle is being diagnose. Ask any REGIONAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE working for GM.
GM is unquestionably subject matter experts on their vehicle. A Lawyer or Lawyers will be hard pressed to prove their case against recorded data on the ECM/vehicle in question and expert engine management engineers.
The judge will understand that the owner illegally violated state and Federal EPA/Smog Laws. Which states the ENGINE CONTROL UNIT cannot be modified by anyone but GM as tested by the EPA. The problem only compounds from possible jail time and $20,000 + fines.
Bigg Gunz
If the servers detector tampering within the ECM the server will send a void notice to the dealership where the impaired vehicle is being diagnose. Ask any REGIONAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE working for GM.
GM is unquestionably subject matter experts on their vehicle. A Lawyer or Lawyers will be hard pressed to prove their case against recorded data on the ECM/vehicle in question and expert engine management engineers.
The judge will understand that the owner illegally violated state and Federal EPA/Smog Laws. Which states the ENGINE CONTROL UNIT cannot be modified by anyone but GM as tested by the EPA. The problem only compounds from possible jail time and $20,000 + fines.
Bigg Gunz
Void the warranty, sure. Prosecution, give me a break.
Not all states have such stringent smog laws and once you purchase the car you can do what ever the heck you want to with it including tear out the ECM, replace it with an aftermarket one and tune it. Direct injection is not new, not scary and certainly tunable in ALL cases. Some cases are easier than others of course. The after market has always found a way to fill the need. I am pretty sure John Meany is laughing at this thread.