New LT1 for 2014 6.2l alum block
12-26-2012, 04:31 PM
#701
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Some good points you make. Oil is currently the most cost effective method to produce energy. Clean drilling and extraction methods give us capability to drill where we have not before. Hybrids are effective platforms with battery technology developing at a rapid rate as shown by both Porsche and Audi. With that said, I hope I will always have the option of some form of V8 gasoline powered high performance vehicle.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/um-wow-...es-14-seconds/
http://www.lemanslive.com/Lemanslive...e-Mans-in-2013
http://blog.caranddriver.com/um-wow-...es-14-seconds/
http://www.lemanslive.com/Lemanslive...e-Mans-in-2013
Also a thought for a GM, dont know if it would work or not, but when the time comes for say the C8 vette, keep it big enough to fit a V8, but give 6 cylinder motors as standard equipment so thats what the government see's, but make it so someone can buy say an LT1 through GMPP and have it installed, kind of like the old COPO cars were done behind GM's back.
12-26-2012, 07:15 PM
#702
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I guess when I wrote "We have a few years to go so enjoy your V8 cars while you can" it does look like I'm saying they're gonna come and take away our eight cylinder engines.
I meant that they're gonna stop making new V8 engined cars and light trucks.
I'm with you guys, I also hope it doesn't come to that but with the looming CAFE rules coming, it looks like it will.
I'm planning a 598 CI (9.8L) engine for the Monte heeheehee.......
I meant that they're gonna stop making new V8 engined cars and light trucks.
I'm with you guys, I also hope it doesn't come to that but with the looming CAFE rules coming, it looks like it will.
I'm planning a 598 CI (9.8L) engine for the Monte heeheehee.......
12-27-2012, 09:23 AM
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It definitely looks like the layout has room for a SC to sit in the V, similar to the LS9.
I would be greatly interested in hearing your thoughts on SC vs. a twin turbo setup, just in general since I understand you cannot speak about "big brother" yet.
I understand the SC will provide better torque under roughly 3k rpm and have less back pressure, but it seems to me that with a base motor that already has such massive torque, a turbo setup would be beneficial from an efficiency stand point. Maybe the back pressure creates too much of an EGT issue...
I would be greatly interested in hearing your thoughts on SC vs. a twin turbo setup, just in general since I understand you cannot speak about "big brother" yet.
I understand the SC will provide better torque under roughly 3k rpm and have less back pressure, but it seems to me that with a base motor that already has such massive torque, a turbo setup would be beneficial from an efficiency stand point. Maybe the back pressure creates too much of an EGT issue...
The track is different.... so the information below will be in reference to street cars and daily drivers.
If you like smooth linear acceleration off the pedal, then its supercharger for you
If you like raw peaky linear acceleration then, you're a turbo person.
Aggressive Camshafts always affect drive ability and durability at some level. So this pushes a person to force induction at some point & time sooner or later. Turbos & superchargers are both air pumps. The energy required whether its thermal or torque to build pressure is the only difference and will give you a different driving experience.
Turbo's are much more efficient then superchargers however they are much more complex and require a delicate setup to survive. Being so efficient they produce a lot of pressurized air/boost so they need a management system known as waste gates and blow off valves and a boost controller. As for the extreme EGT of turbos they can be controlled actually as well as back pressure. There are many ways of working with EGT's on these types of setups. Pumping pressurized air out of the chamber requires horsepower so turbos aren't perfectly efficient, they are better at it than superchargers.
Superchargers should be used based on purpose/service needed. And before you do this the company you're considering should be able to provide you with the supercharger efficiency maps, and pressure maps. And you should overlap those maps to choose what is best for you.
Factor in cost, maintenance, power output, the shape of the torque curve, and engine tuning. This will usually get you there if you can't read pressure maps or efficiency maps.
And the same for the turbo you really need the pressure map to do a fair pro vs con. Everyone opinion is going to be different on supercharger vs turbo. That is why I would ask for the pressure maps for integrity and consideration of each unit. Doing the math first will always render a truthful output.
Now speaking freely....personally in a car 3300lbs or more I would use a supercharger.
Now in a car 3300lbs or less I would use turbos. This is not power to weight ratio....this is torque to weight ratio. I own both a turbo car and supercharged car and I can honest say on the streets and city driving supercharger all the way. Now if you live in the suburbs or rural area and you have slightly less light intersections or a track.... then its turbos.
They're both going to put a smile on your face. It's all about driving style if you're building a street car or daily driver. And if a person is considering building a only car...then of course I would have to go into further details however this is sufficient for normal usage.
Bigg Gunz
Last edited by Bigg_Gunz; 12-27-2012 at 11:17 AM.
12-27-2012, 09:26 AM
#704
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By sand bagging do you mean in initial preliminary numbers (eg. the "at least 450hp" LT1 will be announced to be ~470+ on Jan 13th), or in actual released ratings (eg. the LS1s in the Camaros were rated at 305 crank hp but put down essentially the same rwhp numbers as the Corvette LS1s that were rated at 345 crank hp since it was essentially the same engine but down rated in the F-bodies for marketing reasons). I assumed that the Gen V would be SAE J1349 certified, which as far as I know doesn't leave much room for actual ratings to be sand bagged.
Everything that GM has said about this car so far suggest it will be an exclusive numbers higher end content car. It has been surmised by fans that the currency exchange between USD and AUD is such that GM can't really offer a car less expensive than the G8 GXP was at this performance level, so they have brought it up market to make it more worthy of the required high asking price.
Everything that GM has said about this car so far suggest it will be an exclusive numbers higher end content car. It has been surmised by fans that the currency exchange between USD and AUD is such that GM can't really offer a car less expensive than the G8 GXP was at this performance level, so they have brought it up market to make it more worthy of the required high asking price.
I would tell anyone expect sandbagging and expect some of these engines to be detuned slightly
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 09:30 AM
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Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 09:38 AM
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Now I'm just wondering... BG talks about how these engines run close to the ragged edge all the time when it comes to tuning, yet he also says they are fairly detuned yet. Is it possible that the ECM holds close to optimal tune already, and the only thing that is detuning them is the ETC settings?
The 2014 LT1 runs on the edge of stable combustion it means that it is fully optimized. To give you a visual...think of a a sewing machine...all parts are functioning properly and the design can't not be improved additional. It doesn't mean it cannot be made to run faster.... It just means changing something dealing with the combustion cycle such as timing, fuel etc.... is going to throw out efficiency. This is why there will be no continuing development for the V8 platform. This is as far as stable combustion can go dealing with 8 cylinders. The physics changes dealing with rotating mass when you drop down to 6 and 4 cylinders.
Bigg Gun
12-27-2012, 09:43 AM
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The VVT is where the additional and maximum output will be gained.... The person or after market company is going to slam face first into the same Horsepower brick wall that plagues current 5.3 VVT and 6.0VVT engines if they do not figure it out... And VVC is on the way....and its very sophisticated over VVT.
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 09:51 AM
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CAFE regulations... 0w20 oil is very fluid thus we can run tighter clearances for less pumping and friction losses. Which this almost eliminates wear and tear on the bottom end. This is possible due to the coated bearings. What it does is decrease rotational frictions and maximize mechanical energy efficiency. Which increases fuel economy and the by product of that is freed up horsepower.
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 09:55 AM
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Questions for you Bigg Gunz: Can you tell us more about these new bearings? Is this a GM GenV engine exclusive or will it filter into the aftermarket for other applications? Will I find them to fit the next big block I have planned?
It looks like these new bearings is the reason a lighter oil is specified. Good idea, flows better cold and hot. Is this also used to aid the under piston squirters?
It looks like these new bearings is the reason a lighter oil is specified. Good idea, flows better cold and hot. Is this also used to aid the under piston squirters?
The bearings are already on the market just with slightly different properties. However those different properties aren't critical to performance or would give you any noticeable difference than these bearings that are being discuss.
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 10:06 AM
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I know that some of the high feature v6's are using those bearings for 12 and newer models. I saw the bearings first in a 2012 lfx I am building with forged pistons and twins. It was only on the mains on it though. Hell even that v6 3.6 has piston squirters on a naturally aspirated setup. They are really packing a lot of technology in these late model engines.
So Mr Gunz,
If you were building a 3.6 lfx with 2618 alloy Diamond pistons, what would you target for ring end gap? I am thinking .013-.015 on the top, .020 on the 2nd. I based this off of the specs on some of the current turbo v6s the general is running.
So Mr Gunz,
If you were building a 3.6 lfx with 2618 alloy Diamond pistons, what would you target for ring end gap? I am thinking .013-.015 on the top, .020 on the 2nd. I based this off of the specs on some of the current turbo v6s the general is running.
Can you get away with .0036 per inch of piston? Yes... However, now your piston to wall clearance has no room for machine error...... this Engine is going have to be spot on to prevent the piston rocking at BDC because of the taper and causing the top ring to bind or flutter or bounce. And when the piston makes it back to TDC for the dynamic pressure ...it is going to pressurize the space between the top and 2nd and causing the top ring to bounce, flutter, wobble...bind up and pull the ring landing off.
Or you're going run into issues with burning oil, flakes in the oil....under load and heat. Don't forget the piston rings need to expand and they will expand under load and heat.
With that tight of gap they are going to butt ends and keep butting until the piston takes out itself and or lift the piston landing to expose your 2nd ring to combustion.
I urge you to reconsider running that tight of a clearance.
Reply back advise if you are consider running less 700HP or running 700HP more.... when dealing with V6 engines 700HP is vertex of what to gap rings. So that I can recommend more appropriate tolerance on ring gaps.
Bigg Gunz
Last edited by Bigg_Gunz; 12-27-2012 at 10:47 AM.
12-27-2012, 10:11 AM
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Good morning and Merry Christmas,
Yes I'm back briefly I'm stuck in Chicago O'hare International on a layover. Was checking some emails... got directed to here. So I'm answering earlier questions. I hope you and everyone had a great Christmas and hope everyone family is safe and continue to pray for those kids in Connecticut & their families.
Bigg Gunz
Yes I'm back briefly I'm stuck in Chicago O'hare International on a layover. Was checking some emails... got directed to here. So I'm answering earlier questions. I hope you and everyone had a great Christmas and hope everyone family is safe and continue to pray for those kids in Connecticut & their families.
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 10:24 AM
#713
Thank you, and yes, I'm sure the issues of the day are heavy on everyone's minds.
Safe travels. Thanks again for all the info you've shared with us-it's like a Christmas present for all of us!
Question: Will any of the truck versions be cast iron blocks?
Safe travels. Thanks again for all the info you've shared with us-it's like a Christmas present for all of us!
Question: Will any of the truck versions be cast iron blocks?
12-27-2012, 10:24 AM
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Questions to BG (something for when you get back off of holiday)...
1. Does the DI system use smaller fuel droplets in a wider patter to increase atomization?Yes at given PRESSURE/RPM and other variables...the pattern can change in many shapes and patterns.
As atomization could be reduced with the shorter amount of time for the fuel and air to mix (removing the intake runner from the mix time).
2. What is the fuel atomization level with the new DI setup on the Gen V's -vs- the multiport on Gen III/IV.What is the fuel atomization level with the new DI setup on the Gen V's -vs- the multiport on Gen III/IV. Port Injection vs Direct Injection over atomization effectiveness? No constant... in a sense port injection is sloppy and does a **** poor job of fuel atomization. Direct Injection walks all over port injection in every way possible. To give you a visual...take a spray bottle of WINDEX WINDOW cleaner... it has 3 settings (SPRAY/ STOP/ STREAM) right? So.... STREAM = Port Injection high volumes of fuel, huge fuel droplets horrible job at atomization. Now select SPRAY = Direct Injection.... uniformed, even, ultra fine atomization this results in a very clean homogenous burn..using less fuel. Very clean even burn, and it cools the combustion better and faster than anything dreamed of in regular engines. Port injection = sloppy process and that uncontrolled atomization has a equally terrible effect on combustion chamber, rings, valves, and seals etc....and CARBON BUILD UP ANYONE???
3. Does the DI system feed fuel in on the compression stroke (say to stabalize the air fuel charge and stop premature detonation/knock)?Direct Indirection is a STRONG DIVA. All she wants is perfect optimized settings so she can perform. Tamper with her and she'll cancel the show. To give you a visual...Go to your kitchen turn the burner on high and grab a pan/pot. Don't put anything in it, no liquids , no food, no nothing... put it on the stove. Get it good and hot... Now take that pan... over to the sink..turn the water on stick the pan in the stream of water..... What you are seeing is the cooling effect and transfer of energy into many states. This is what direct injection does. There is very little or no knock in direct injection because of this visual I just gave you. This gives us the ability to inject fuel directly into the cylinders high-pressure environment at any time during the engine cycle. And trust me this ECM feeds fuel in weird times for those that aren't familiar with new combustion technologies cycles.
4. Will the C7 LT1 hit 450hp and 26mpg on 87 octane and go higher on say 91/93 octane?All gasoline at the pumps whether its 87, 89, 93 contain the same about of energy. The only difference is octane. This suppresses pre ignition/detonation nothing more nothing less. This is an high compression engine it likes 93 but has an love affair on E85. If given 87 gasoline the ECM has ways of accommodating that fuel. And still maintain the ENGINE Rated HP output however torque will suffer slightly. The reason the engine loves E-85? Energy level VS energy level with gasoline E85 is weaker than gasoline. Now E-85 is weaker which makes it more stable under high compression. This engine is high compression. Under high compression E-85 burns cleaner and produces more dynamic cylinder pressure. Why? It's produces more dynamic cylinder pressure because at the ATOM level E-85 has more Oxygen atoms than any gasoline at the pumps. The E-85 is a richer oxygen source although it is weaker in energy. So it breaks down like this... Flame + High Compression + Oxygen = BOOM! More violent explosion = Dynamic Cylinder Pressure....The engine knows when E-85 is in the system because of it's EGT signature and O2 sensor read outs.
The reason I bring up higher atomization levels is simple, it could lead to a higher percentage of fuel exploding in the combustion/detonation. Which would leave less fuel to be burned off with the multi-spark ignition and catalytic converters.
This could lead to smaller cats with less back pressure (say high flow ceramic brick style over the charcoal brick style). One way this ECM controls the catalytic converters efficiency & temperature is... at start up the ECM retards the ignition timing this causes the exhaust to heat very very quickly. This retarding also causes unstable combustion so the VVT enacts with overlap adjustments this usually straightens out the combustion process. However if its a COLD COLD start up then normally this process would result in a misfire. So the process is packaged up and then sent to the 2nd OS with in the ECM and that OS has the variables to control FUEL TIMING & produces a stratified charge super rich around the spark plug but lite lean 10cm before the catalytic converter and after the catalytic convert it is extremely lean.
Also higher hp due to more bang in the combustion/detonation while offering better fuel economy (with a little trickery in the form of enhanced control's, something like what you've mentioned the new ECM is capable of).
If that is where GM is going then I'ld like a 450 to 500 hp 5.3L with AFM, VVT, and DI to drop into my 05 GTO as I really like this car. Oh and maybe an Air VI body kit
1. Does the DI system use smaller fuel droplets in a wider patter to increase atomization?Yes at given PRESSURE/RPM and other variables...the pattern can change in many shapes and patterns.
As atomization could be reduced with the shorter amount of time for the fuel and air to mix (removing the intake runner from the mix time).
2. What is the fuel atomization level with the new DI setup on the Gen V's -vs- the multiport on Gen III/IV.What is the fuel atomization level with the new DI setup on the Gen V's -vs- the multiport on Gen III/IV. Port Injection vs Direct Injection over atomization effectiveness? No constant... in a sense port injection is sloppy and does a **** poor job of fuel atomization. Direct Injection walks all over port injection in every way possible. To give you a visual...take a spray bottle of WINDEX WINDOW cleaner... it has 3 settings (SPRAY/ STOP/ STREAM) right? So.... STREAM = Port Injection high volumes of fuel, huge fuel droplets horrible job at atomization. Now select SPRAY = Direct Injection.... uniformed, even, ultra fine atomization this results in a very clean homogenous burn..using less fuel. Very clean even burn, and it cools the combustion better and faster than anything dreamed of in regular engines. Port injection = sloppy process and that uncontrolled atomization has a equally terrible effect on combustion chamber, rings, valves, and seals etc....and CARBON BUILD UP ANYONE???
3. Does the DI system feed fuel in on the compression stroke (say to stabalize the air fuel charge and stop premature detonation/knock)?Direct Indirection is a STRONG DIVA. All she wants is perfect optimized settings so she can perform. Tamper with her and she'll cancel the show. To give you a visual...Go to your kitchen turn the burner on high and grab a pan/pot. Don't put anything in it, no liquids , no food, no nothing... put it on the stove. Get it good and hot... Now take that pan... over to the sink..turn the water on stick the pan in the stream of water..... What you are seeing is the cooling effect and transfer of energy into many states. This is what direct injection does. There is very little or no knock in direct injection because of this visual I just gave you. This gives us the ability to inject fuel directly into the cylinders high-pressure environment at any time during the engine cycle. And trust me this ECM feeds fuel in weird times for those that aren't familiar with new combustion technologies cycles.
4. Will the C7 LT1 hit 450hp and 26mpg on 87 octane and go higher on say 91/93 octane?All gasoline at the pumps whether its 87, 89, 93 contain the same about of energy. The only difference is octane. This suppresses pre ignition/detonation nothing more nothing less. This is an high compression engine it likes 93 but has an love affair on E85. If given 87 gasoline the ECM has ways of accommodating that fuel. And still maintain the ENGINE Rated HP output however torque will suffer slightly. The reason the engine loves E-85? Energy level VS energy level with gasoline E85 is weaker than gasoline. Now E-85 is weaker which makes it more stable under high compression. This engine is high compression. Under high compression E-85 burns cleaner and produces more dynamic cylinder pressure. Why? It's produces more dynamic cylinder pressure because at the ATOM level E-85 has more Oxygen atoms than any gasoline at the pumps. The E-85 is a richer oxygen source although it is weaker in energy. So it breaks down like this... Flame + High Compression + Oxygen = BOOM! More violent explosion = Dynamic Cylinder Pressure....The engine knows when E-85 is in the system because of it's EGT signature and O2 sensor read outs.
The reason I bring up higher atomization levels is simple, it could lead to a higher percentage of fuel exploding in the combustion/detonation. Which would leave less fuel to be burned off with the multi-spark ignition and catalytic converters.
This could lead to smaller cats with less back pressure (say high flow ceramic brick style over the charcoal brick style). One way this ECM controls the catalytic converters efficiency & temperature is... at start up the ECM retards the ignition timing this causes the exhaust to heat very very quickly. This retarding also causes unstable combustion so the VVT enacts with overlap adjustments this usually straightens out the combustion process. However if its a COLD COLD start up then normally this process would result in a misfire. So the process is packaged up and then sent to the 2nd OS with in the ECM and that OS has the variables to control FUEL TIMING & produces a stratified charge super rich around the spark plug but lite lean 10cm before the catalytic converter and after the catalytic convert it is extremely lean.
Also higher hp due to more bang in the combustion/detonation while offering better fuel economy (with a little trickery in the form of enhanced control's, something like what you've mentioned the new ECM is capable of).
If that is where GM is going then I'ld like a 450 to 500 hp 5.3L with AFM, VVT, and DI to drop into my 05 GTO as I really like this car. Oh and maybe an Air VI body kit
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 10:28 AM
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can block stiffness yield any more power? it may be a stupid question, but can the bay breathing and stiffer block in the LS6 block give a little more power than a LS1 block?
12-27-2012, 10:36 AM
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My understanding with how the blocks are cast today they are structurally stronger at the grain level due to new proprietary processes.
As of right now there will be no iron block version of the Gen V/ 2014 LT1 6.2 liters.
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 10:45 AM
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When increasing stiffness the trade off becomes brittle at some point. When the engine is running the bottom side of the piston really stirs up air currents, and that air current stirs the oil as well. The bay to bay breathing equalizes the pressure and thus you can gain some horsepower. Not much but it is measurable..
Bigg Gunz
12-27-2012, 10:51 AM
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12-27-2012, 11:50 AM
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Good morning and Merry Christmas,
Yes I'm back briefly I'm stuck in Chicago O'hare International on a layover. Was checking some emails... got directed to here. So I'm answering earlier questions. I hope you and everyone had a great Christmas and hope everyone family is safe and continue to pray for those kids in Connecticut & their families.
Bigg Gunz
Yes I'm back briefly I'm stuck in Chicago O'hare International on a layover. Was checking some emails... got directed to here. So I'm answering earlier questions. I hope you and everyone had a great Christmas and hope everyone family is safe and continue to pray for those kids in Connecticut & their families.
Bigg Gunz