making a 2006 LS4 Monte Carlo rear wheel drive..
12-03-2005, 08:03 AM
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making a 2006 LS4 Monte Carlo rear wheel drive.. Has anyone considered this ?
The new LS4 Monte is a sweet ride, but it's FWD.
Using a cheap 4 gen 6 cyl F body as a 'doner' car for all the front/rear suspension pieces.
Replace the trans with a 'good' 4L60e.
Trans/driveshaft tunnel fab work.
Is it do-able, or too many issues that can't be worked out.
Or, would there be a slick way to make it AWD with some 'standard' GM transfer case going back to an F body rearend setup ?
or is this just too crazy...
Dave
The new LS4 Monte is a sweet ride, but it's FWD.
Using a cheap 4 gen 6 cyl F body as a 'doner' car for all the front/rear suspension pieces.
Replace the trans with a 'good' 4L60e.
Trans/driveshaft tunnel fab work.
Is it do-able, or too many issues that can't be worked out.
Or, would there be a slick way to make it AWD with some 'standard' GM transfer case going back to an F body rearend setup ?
or is this just too crazy...
Dave
12-03-2005, 09:26 AM
#2
Major reinforcement of the monocoque chassis would be required at the rear and under the passenger compartment. You would have to use triangulated reinforcement at the shock towers, and it would be a very good idea to install at least a 4-point roll bar to further stiffen the body.
That is just the chassis.
The next hardest part will be the drive axle positioning and placement to make darn sure it is straight when mounted to the fabricated hard points on the chassis.
Then, you can start thinking about rotating that motor 90 degrees in the engine bay...
Lots and lots of $$$$$$$, and lots and lots of fabrication.
That is just the chassis.
The next hardest part will be the drive axle positioning and placement to make darn sure it is straight when mounted to the fabricated hard points on the chassis.
Then, you can start thinking about rotating that motor 90 degrees in the engine bay...
Lots and lots of $$$$$$$, and lots and lots of fabrication.
12-08-2005, 07:58 PM
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Nah.... Been there, done that. I was big on Mopars in the 70s & 80s. Had several HEMI cars including a 71 HEMIcharger. I should've kept one of them ,as a could retire on the cash that they sell for today.
You can have that new HEMI stuff. The HEMI cars today weight too much, & the gas mileage is really bad compared to the LSx engines.
I've been 'hooked' on the LSx engines since I 1st test drove & bought, my 1998 Z28 back in October of 97.
I really like the idea of a 'family' LS4 coupe/sedan. But not FWD. I would go for AWD.
As I was looking thru the GM powertrain website, I see that the same A4 that goes with the LS4 , is made into an AWD trans, & is part of the 'versatrak' AWD in the new crossover minivans. A 'flat floorpan is aok with this AWD system. It would be cool if GM could offer a 'versatrak' AWD with an LS4 sedan.
Does anyone think an LS4 Monte could be converted to an AWD 'versatrak' with off the shelf GM parts ?
I'ts been around since 2002....
The new GM design is called Versatrak, and its operating principle is similar to the Quadra-Trac used on Jeep Grand Cherokee. Versatrak appears now on the Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous. However, it will likely find its way into the company’s 2002 front-drive minivans. Like the Ford system, it has a simple power-takeoff at the front transaxle, with a propeller shaft to the rear axle, which includes the Versatrak coupling. In the Versatrak, each rear axle shaft goes through a gerotor oil pump and splines into a wet multidisc clutch pack, with a piston between each gerotor pump and clutch pack, all enclosed in a differential housing.
When there’s full traction to the front wheels, the propeller shaft pinion gear just spins the differential ring gear and housing. The clutches are disengaged, so no torque is transferred to the rear wheels. If the front wheels lose traction, however, the speed of the propeller shaft and ring gear increases, so it’s faster than the rear-axle shafts. Result: The gerotor oil pumps turn faster than the rear-wheel axle shafts. The pumps produce oil pressure that moves the pistons proportionally to engage the clutch packs, locking them to the differential housing so they receive torque from the propeller shaft. Even if one of the rear wheels also loses traction, torque still will be transferred to the other, so the vehicle won’t get stuck.
Because the design is so compact and located at the rear wheels, Versatrak permits a normal-height flat floor in the minivans.
You can have that new HEMI stuff. The HEMI cars today weight too much, & the gas mileage is really bad compared to the LSx engines.
I've been 'hooked' on the LSx engines since I 1st test drove & bought, my 1998 Z28 back in October of 97.
I really like the idea of a 'family' LS4 coupe/sedan. But not FWD. I would go for AWD.
As I was looking thru the GM powertrain website, I see that the same A4 that goes with the LS4 , is made into an AWD trans, & is part of the 'versatrak' AWD in the new crossover minivans. A 'flat floorpan is aok with this AWD system. It would be cool if GM could offer a 'versatrak' AWD with an LS4 sedan.
Does anyone think an LS4 Monte could be converted to an AWD 'versatrak' with off the shelf GM parts ?
I'ts been around since 2002....
The new GM design is called Versatrak, and its operating principle is similar to the Quadra-Trac used on Jeep Grand Cherokee. Versatrak appears now on the Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous. However, it will likely find its way into the company’s 2002 front-drive minivans. Like the Ford system, it has a simple power-takeoff at the front transaxle, with a propeller shaft to the rear axle, which includes the Versatrak coupling. In the Versatrak, each rear axle shaft goes through a gerotor oil pump and splines into a wet multidisc clutch pack, with a piston between each gerotor pump and clutch pack, all enclosed in a differential housing.
When there’s full traction to the front wheels, the propeller shaft pinion gear just spins the differential ring gear and housing. The clutches are disengaged, so no torque is transferred to the rear wheels. If the front wheels lose traction, however, the speed of the propeller shaft and ring gear increases, so it’s faster than the rear-axle shafts. Result: The gerotor oil pumps turn faster than the rear-wheel axle shafts. The pumps produce oil pressure that moves the pistons proportionally to engage the clutch packs, locking them to the differential housing so they receive torque from the propeller shaft. Even if one of the rear wheels also loses traction, torque still will be transferred to the other, so the vehicle won’t get stuck.
Because the design is so compact and located at the rear wheels, Versatrak permits a normal-height flat floor in the minivans.
12-08-2005, 09:12 PM
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I didn't realize the versatrak used the 4t65e transmission. It would be neat to look into converting the W-body. For what it's worth, the FWD on these cars isn't as bad as I thought it would be, at least on the Grand Prix. The wider tires help.
And I agree about the new Hemi Charger, the R/T is only close in the 1/4 because it has 50 extra hp, there's no reason for a "performance sedan" to weigh 4400 lbs. Although an SRT-8 would be a ton of fun to drive.
And I agree about the new Hemi Charger, the R/T is only close in the 1/4 because it has 50 extra hp, there's no reason for a "performance sedan" to weigh 4400 lbs. Although an SRT-8 would be a ton of fun to drive.
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12-09-2005, 01:03 PM
#9
Why, is RWD the only reason these cars get beat up?? It would be nicer but, I can't see buying a Hemi Charger to get beat by the FWD car you passed up on..Now if your talkin SRT-8 Charger, I hear Ya!
12-13-2005, 07:26 PM
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You could wait for a rwd Camaro...
GM reverses course, says revised version of Zeta rear-drive architecture is back on track
Automotive News
9/12/05
DETROIT - Six months after General Motors halted plans to use its Zeta rear-wheel-drive car architecture in North America, the company has revived the program.
In an interview with Automotive News last week, Jim Queen, GM's vice president of global engineering, said a revised version of Zeta is back on track.
Engineered at GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia, Zeta was expected to be the basis of the next-generation Pontiac Grand Prix and GTO; the Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo and a new version of the Camaro; and other vehicles. Vehicles in the program were expected to debut as early as 2006.
Queen did not discuss vehicles on the new version of Zeta or timing. Some vehicles that could be in the Zeta program include the next-generation Pontiac GTO as well as a Chevrolet coupe and sedans. They could debut by the 2009 or 2010 model year, say one company source and one industry analyst.
Queen said initial plans for Zeta stretched the architecture beyond its limits for some North American vehicles. "We needed to reassess and reconfigure the program," he said.
"As we started counting who was in and who was out of Zeta, we realized too late" that Zeta would not work in North America, Queen said.
Part of GM's reasoning in slowing Zeta's development was to focus on pulling forward its full-sized SUVs and pickups. GM's next-generation SUVs will debut early next year.
At the time, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz wrote on GM's FastLane blog that GM had "canceled & plans to build rear-wheel-drive vehicles off the Zeta architecture."
"But that does not mean we've canceled plans to build rear-drive vehicles altogether," Lutz wrote. "We are simply reallocating resources (human and financial) to pull some other programs ahead and get other vehicles to market sooner."
The revised Zeta program is being developed in GM's Australian engineering center. The vehicle line executive on the program is Gene Stefanyshyn, the former vehicle line executive for GM's Epsilon, or mid-sized cars, in North America.
A GM spokesman said no product plans have been approved and that GM still is studying design themes, performance characteristics and variants for Zeta vehicles.
GM uses the term "architecture" to signify a common set of components, performance characteristics, a common manufacturing process, a range of dimensions and connecting points for key component systems.
GM reverses course, says revised version of Zeta rear-drive architecture is back on track
Automotive News
9/12/05
DETROIT - Six months after General Motors halted plans to use its Zeta rear-wheel-drive car architecture in North America, the company has revived the program.
In an interview with Automotive News last week, Jim Queen, GM's vice president of global engineering, said a revised version of Zeta is back on track.
Engineered at GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia, Zeta was expected to be the basis of the next-generation Pontiac Grand Prix and GTO; the Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo and a new version of the Camaro; and other vehicles. Vehicles in the program were expected to debut as early as 2006.
Queen did not discuss vehicles on the new version of Zeta or timing. Some vehicles that could be in the Zeta program include the next-generation Pontiac GTO as well as a Chevrolet coupe and sedans. They could debut by the 2009 or 2010 model year, say one company source and one industry analyst.
Queen said initial plans for Zeta stretched the architecture beyond its limits for some North American vehicles. "We needed to reassess and reconfigure the program," he said.
"As we started counting who was in and who was out of Zeta, we realized too late" that Zeta would not work in North America, Queen said.
Part of GM's reasoning in slowing Zeta's development was to focus on pulling forward its full-sized SUVs and pickups. GM's next-generation SUVs will debut early next year.
At the time, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz wrote on GM's FastLane blog that GM had "canceled & plans to build rear-wheel-drive vehicles off the Zeta architecture."
"But that does not mean we've canceled plans to build rear-drive vehicles altogether," Lutz wrote. "We are simply reallocating resources (human and financial) to pull some other programs ahead and get other vehicles to market sooner."
The revised Zeta program is being developed in GM's Australian engineering center. The vehicle line executive on the program is Gene Stefanyshyn, the former vehicle line executive for GM's Epsilon, or mid-sized cars, in North America.
A GM spokesman said no product plans have been approved and that GM still is studying design themes, performance characteristics and variants for Zeta vehicles.
GM uses the term "architecture" to signify a common set of components, performance characteristics, a common manufacturing process, a range of dimensions and connecting points for key component systems.
12-18-2005, 06:45 PM
#11
There is no reason why this couldn't be done with the major parts being off the shelf. GM did make an AWD LS1 powerd GP show car a few years back using the Versatrak system.
They also had a production AWD car 16 years ago that used the 3 t-40 and a modified S-truck front diff in the back. The floor pan was modified in the fron to accomodate the transfer case (something that could easily be done if you can weld) and the truck had half the spare tire well removed to accomodate the exhaust system. The only structural brace that was unique to that car was a rear boxed section that connected the two rear struts on the floor of the trunk. The gas tank was unique however.
If you can get some of thos parts you could probably convert a W-body car over to AWD, the original design was created to be easy to convert over to the W-body platform, the original intent of the awd program.
They also had a production AWD car 16 years ago that used the 3 t-40 and a modified S-truck front diff in the back. The floor pan was modified in the fron to accomodate the transfer case (something that could easily be done if you can weld) and the truck had half the spare tire well removed to accomodate the exhaust system. The only structural brace that was unique to that car was a rear boxed section that connected the two rear struts on the floor of the trunk. The gas tank was unique however.
If you can get some of thos parts you could probably convert a W-body car over to AWD, the original design was created to be easy to convert over to the W-body platform, the original intent of the awd program.
Originally Posted by 2000Firehawk
Nah.... Been there, done that. I was big on Mopars in the 70s & 80s. Had several HEMI cars including a 71 HEMIcharger. I should've kept one of them ,as a could retire on the cash that they sell for today.
You can have that new HEMI stuff. The HEMI cars today weight too much, & the gas mileage is really bad compared to the LSx engines.
I've been 'hooked' on the LSx engines since I 1st test drove & bought, my 1998 Z28 back in October of 97.
I really like the idea of a 'family' LS4 coupe/sedan. But not FWD. I would go for AWD.
As I was looking thru the GM powertrain website, I see that the same A4 that goes with the LS4 , is made into an AWD trans, & is part of the 'versatrak' AWD in the new crossover minivans. A 'flat floorpan is aok with this AWD system. It would be cool if GM could offer a 'versatrak' AWD with an LS4 sedan.
Does anyone think an LS4 Monte could be converted to an AWD 'versatrak' with off the shelf GM parts ?
I'ts been around since 2002....
The new GM design is called Versatrak, and its operating principle is similar to the Quadra-Trac used on Jeep Grand Cherokee. Versatrak appears now on the Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous. However, it will likely find its way into the company’s 2002 front-drive minivans. Like the Ford system, it has a simple power-takeoff at the front transaxle, with a propeller shaft to the rear axle, which includes the Versatrak coupling. In the Versatrak, each rear axle shaft goes through a gerotor oil pump and splines into a wet multidisc clutch pack, with a piston between each gerotor pump and clutch pack, all enclosed in a differential housing.
When there’s full traction to the front wheels, the propeller shaft pinion gear just spins the differential ring gear and housing. The clutches are disengaged, so no torque is transferred to the rear wheels. If the front wheels lose traction, however, the speed of the propeller shaft and ring gear increases, so it’s faster than the rear-axle shafts. Result: The gerotor oil pumps turn faster than the rear-wheel axle shafts. The pumps produce oil pressure that moves the pistons proportionally to engage the clutch packs, locking them to the differential housing so they receive torque from the propeller shaft. Even if one of the rear wheels also loses traction, torque still will be transferred to the other, so the vehicle won’t get stuck.
Because the design is so compact and located at the rear wheels, Versatrak permits a normal-height flat floor in the minivans.
You can have that new HEMI stuff. The HEMI cars today weight too much, & the gas mileage is really bad compared to the LSx engines.
I've been 'hooked' on the LSx engines since I 1st test drove & bought, my 1998 Z28 back in October of 97.
I really like the idea of a 'family' LS4 coupe/sedan. But not FWD. I would go for AWD.
As I was looking thru the GM powertrain website, I see that the same A4 that goes with the LS4 , is made into an AWD trans, & is part of the 'versatrak' AWD in the new crossover minivans. A 'flat floorpan is aok with this AWD system. It would be cool if GM could offer a 'versatrak' AWD with an LS4 sedan.
Does anyone think an LS4 Monte could be converted to an AWD 'versatrak' with off the shelf GM parts ?
I'ts been around since 2002....
The new GM design is called Versatrak, and its operating principle is similar to the Quadra-Trac used on Jeep Grand Cherokee. Versatrak appears now on the Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous. However, it will likely find its way into the company’s 2002 front-drive minivans. Like the Ford system, it has a simple power-takeoff at the front transaxle, with a propeller shaft to the rear axle, which includes the Versatrak coupling. In the Versatrak, each rear axle shaft goes through a gerotor oil pump and splines into a wet multidisc clutch pack, with a piston between each gerotor pump and clutch pack, all enclosed in a differential housing.
When there’s full traction to the front wheels, the propeller shaft pinion gear just spins the differential ring gear and housing. The clutches are disengaged, so no torque is transferred to the rear wheels. If the front wheels lose traction, however, the speed of the propeller shaft and ring gear increases, so it’s faster than the rear-axle shafts. Result: The gerotor oil pumps turn faster than the rear-wheel axle shafts. The pumps produce oil pressure that moves the pistons proportionally to engage the clutch packs, locking them to the differential housing so they receive torque from the propeller shaft. Even if one of the rear wheels also loses traction, torque still will be transferred to the other, so the vehicle won’t get stuck.
Because the design is so compact and located at the rear wheels, Versatrak permits a normal-height flat floor in the minivans.
12-25-2005, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 2000Firehawk
Has anyone considered this ?
The new LS4 Monte ( sic Impala and Grand Prix) is a sweet ride, but it's FWD.
The new LS4 Monte ( sic Impala and Grand Prix) is a sweet ride, but it's FWD.
I applaud GM for sticking V8's in these cars and I bought one. But they need to do more to catch up with other car makers, such as Dodge and Chrysler. Mag editors agree with us...
01-02-2006, 07:13 PM
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Ok, if this versatrak works like i understand, then when you are lauching on a drag strip the rear wheels would not be working anyway because the front wheels would have no traction, and once they did have traction the power would be a little lower beacause of the extra drivetrain loss, plus some extra weight would slow it down. So the only real use would be some extra traction in the corners until you broke traction then you would go even more out of control. If i'm right i dont see why you whould even consider that. If you dont want Fwd and you have to get something new, you should go with a gto or mustang, or you could wait till the new camaro or challenger comes out. Personally,even though they are fairly fast, i think the front drives are kinduf gay.
01-02-2006, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by duffman
I think that solstice is rear drive, but it has a V6. maybe you could get one of those a stick a v8 in it. that would be cool and prolly alot easier.
01-03-2006, 05:29 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by duffman
I think that solstice is rear drive, but it has a V6. maybe you could get one of those a stick a v8 in it. that would be cool and prolly alot easier.
It has a V6 uh? oh boy.....
01-03-2006, 08:00 AM
#17
Take the Monte Carlo and put it on a C5 or C4 body like the 1969 Camaro IRS freaks. Pricey but there is a company out there that does it. Only like the price of a Corvette the Monte Carlo and about a million man hours combined!!!
(I actually called them and asked about putting a C4 IRS and front suspension on my 1999 Z28, they said it would cost around $55,000)
(I actually called them and asked about putting a C4 IRS and front suspension on my 1999 Z28, they said it would cost around $55,000)
01-03-2006, 06:29 PM
#18
[QUOTE=duffman]Ok, if this versatrak works like i understand, then when you are lauching on a drag strip the rear wheels would not be working anyway because the front wheels would have no traction,
Actually versatrak works like most of the newer awd systems these days. It only "kicks in" when the front wheels lose traction. This is kind of a nice feature in some ways because there is no center differential, just a transfer case. All of the rear wheel power on/off happens at the rear end through pumps that clamp clutches together as needed. A light and effective system with alot of tuning possibilities.
not sure if this makes sense to the guy who thinks the solstice has a v6
Actually versatrak works like most of the newer awd systems these days. It only "kicks in" when the front wheels lose traction. This is kind of a nice feature in some ways because there is no center differential, just a transfer case. All of the rear wheel power on/off happens at the rear end through pumps that clamp clutches together as needed. A light and effective system with alot of tuning possibilities.
not sure if this makes sense to the guy who thinks the solstice has a v6
