383 or 396 and which heads?
07-15-2009, 05:04 PM
#1
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383 or 396 and which heads? Im trying to peice together my future build.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
07-15-2009, 05:26 PM
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when i talked to LE about a 396 build and getting heads, he recommended i get the bare dart 200cc heads which i believe will cost about 1200 or so and then he can port them and get over 300cfm. i forget what he quoted me on the porting end. just throwing that out there.
AI would also be an excellent choice and their products have been proven over and over...its really just a matter of preference. i feel either one can get you to your goals
AI would also be an excellent choice and their products have been proven over and over...its really just a matter of preference. i feel either one can get you to your goals
07-15-2009, 06:17 PM
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How come out of box AFRs that flow better at every lift not out perform AI's TFS?
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
07-15-2009, 06:21 PM
#6
How come out of box AFRs that flow better at every lift not out perform AI's TFS?
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
07-15-2009, 07:11 PM
#7
It'd be better to go with an AI 200cc or LE3 package than unported afr 210s. The 227s require at the least an offset rocker setup, but you'd be better with shaft mounted rockers. Can't go wrong with Ai TFS heads, but you won't find a better exhaust port than AFRs. My AFR 210s ended up about 218 cc after hand porting, and flow 320+ on a 4" bore.
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07-15-2009, 08:57 PM
#8
FormerVendor
Cruzer, the heads are going to be what makes your car fast or put out the power you want it too. The better AFR and TFS and AI and LE heads can do it. You need to talk to people that have done it for real and not worry as much about internet talk with people that have barely made over 400 RWHP. Not aiming this at anyone in particular as there are several guys on this LTx part of LS1tech that have made big power and actually have results but talk to them.
I would want the best heads available for a 23 degree LTx deal as that is the main reason they lag behind their big brother the LSx. With great heads everything else will become much easier. I would NOT be scared of much larger heads either like some of the people here are. I have done SBC deals with 235+cc heads with a ton of low end torque as the cam is simply changed with the better and larger heads. The manifolds are somewhat lacking but in general what works with real SBCs is the same that works here.
A correctly built 396-408 will make more hp and tq than a 383 but may also cost much more so you have to decide if it's worth it. I'd still get the best heads you can over any crazy shortblock and I am saying that even though I am an engine builder. I also worked at SAM for some years and ported heads and have seen first hand what happens when the heads are there vs. a great shortblock and cam etc. with crap heads. With crap heads the engine is also a hooptie. With good heads you can make the other stuff actually count.
I would want the best heads available for a 23 degree LTx deal as that is the main reason they lag behind their big brother the LSx. With great heads everything else will become much easier. I would NOT be scared of much larger heads either like some of the people here are. I have done SBC deals with 235+cc heads with a ton of low end torque as the cam is simply changed with the better and larger heads. The manifolds are somewhat lacking but in general what works with real SBCs is the same that works here.
A correctly built 396-408 will make more hp and tq than a 383 but may also cost much more so you have to decide if it's worth it. I'd still get the best heads you can over any crazy shortblock and I am saying that even though I am an engine builder. I also worked at SAM for some years and ported heads and have seen first hand what happens when the heads are there vs. a great shortblock and cam etc. with crap heads. With crap heads the engine is also a hooptie. With good heads you can make the other stuff actually count.
07-15-2009, 10:16 PM
#9
How come out of box AFRs that flow better at every lift not out perform AI's TFS?
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
Im not trying to compare LE vs AI, i just want the best product for my money.
I contacted LE and he still has not got back to me.
i know its only about $500 but i thought since the afr 210cc competition porting heads flowed better than AI's TFS heads, and were $500 cheaper, would be the better set up.
that is if afr's flow chart is correct on their website
07-15-2009, 10:38 PM
#10
I would want the best heads available for a 23 degree LTx deal as that is the main reason they lag behind their big brother the LSx. With great heads everything else will become much easier. I would NOT be scared of much larger heads either like some of the people here are. I have done SBC deals with 235+cc heads with a ton of low end torque as the cam is simply changed with the better and larger heads. The manifolds are somewhat lacking but in general what works with real SBCs is the same that works here.
The heads are an even bigger factory when you want to make big power NA...which sadly too many people think an LTX can't do.
07-15-2009, 10:59 PM
#11
Im trying to peice together my future build.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
07-16-2009, 08:00 AM
#12
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alright let me ask this.
i know someone who had either stock lt1 heads or the trick flows ported by LE, the LE2 package. not sure what cam, it was one that passes emissions though, so not to big, LE says the biggest emission cam is 223/230 .565/.565 112 LSA.
with 3000 stall, 4.10 gears, AUTO trans.
it made 415 rwhp, and ran an 11.5 1/4.
that was with a 396, if i use the 215cc TFS AI heads, that flow over 300, AI matching cam, 3000-3600 stall, 373 gears, auto trans, BUT on a 383, will i have similar performance or better?
AI has a nice quality 383 rotating assembly but no 396, where can i get similar quality but for a 396?
i know AI can provide me with what i need, the only thing im wondering is if im missing a cheaper route. not trying to be a cheapo, but if i dont need the tfs heads that flow over 300, i would get the power i need with the lt1 heads that flow 290s and i can save some, then that would be what i want.
i guess i just think the 215cc heads are going to be overkill, sure the power will be amazing but the price wont. the guy that i said i know made 415 with heads that flowed 275. i know u cant judge it all by flow #s but dont know what else to say about them, they were LE2 and even on his site it says flow about 275.
i know this is not going to be cheap, but were looking at $7k for a 383 thats just parts, not machine work or building work.
i know someone who had either stock lt1 heads or the trick flows ported by LE, the LE2 package. not sure what cam, it was one that passes emissions though, so not to big, LE says the biggest emission cam is 223/230 .565/.565 112 LSA.
with 3000 stall, 4.10 gears, AUTO trans.
it made 415 rwhp, and ran an 11.5 1/4.
that was with a 396, if i use the 215cc TFS AI heads, that flow over 300, AI matching cam, 3000-3600 stall, 373 gears, auto trans, BUT on a 383, will i have similar performance or better?
AI has a nice quality 383 rotating assembly but no 396, where can i get similar quality but for a 396?
i know AI can provide me with what i need, the only thing im wondering is if im missing a cheaper route. not trying to be a cheapo, but if i dont need the tfs heads that flow over 300, i would get the power i need with the lt1 heads that flow 290s and i can save some, then that would be what i want.
i guess i just think the 215cc heads are going to be overkill, sure the power will be amazing but the price wont. the guy that i said i know made 415 with heads that flowed 275. i know u cant judge it all by flow #s but dont know what else to say about them, they were LE2 and even on his site it says flow about 275.
i know this is not going to be cheap, but were looking at $7k for a 383 thats just parts, not machine work or building work.
Last edited by Cruzer23; 07-16-2009 at 08:23 AM.
07-16-2009, 08:09 AM
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it should perform better. since the heads are a better head then the le2 ported gm. another head you can check out is TEAs 220cc TFS head there the ones i just got for my 383. very nice head and if you were comparing flow #s they top AIs
07-16-2009, 08:34 AM
#14
Im trying to peice together my future build.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
i know the 383 is solid, but the 396 makes more power. I also hear the 396 will not last as long as a 383. im looking to get at least 100,000 miles out of this. so what do you think?
As for heads, i can buy AFR 210cc heads at 550-650 lift flow over 300. $2000
or AFR 227cc heads that flow pretty much the same as above for $1600 (will the supporting parts be pretty much the same as above since they flow the same, or since its 227cc i have to use different? can i use a ported LT4 intake with these?)
buying these heads from summit, are they bolt in ready or would i be better off buying AI's TFS 215cc heads that flow just below the AFR's above, but cost $2500 bolt in ready.
or can i buy either of the AFR heads and buy the rest to bolt them in for under $2500 so i get the better flowing heads for cheaper?
LE is ok if you already have your heads purchased and want them ported. it would cost me over 1000 for new lt1 heads, then another 1350 for him to port, and they dont match the above heads. i will either go with LE cam or AI cam.
1. You aren't going to get 100k out of most any setup (aside from stock) without spring replacement and head freshening (guides, valvejob, etc).
2. Flow numbers are neither comparable, nor are they a reliable indicator of potential.
3. If the car is currently running, don't start buying parts until you have the money to complete the project. If $1k over what you planned would stop your build, keep saving.
4. Erik is right - if you put a mediocre top-end on a stellar short block, you're going to be out run by stock short block guys with higher-end heads & valve train.
07-16-2009, 08:55 AM
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he has AI's 200cc dominator heads, supporting parts, and ran an 11.1, not sure of his hp tho
AI quoted me $4,255 for a complete top end kit with the same heads, plus ill have to buy their 383 rotating assembly for $2100.
totaling $6355 + tax, shipping
how much do u think a local shop would charge to put it all together? hope they dont ruin this beautiful setup
3000,3200,3600 stall? thats the final question for my complete car (i think =/
07-16-2009, 09:01 AM
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A few quick points for you to consider while you're still planning.
1. You aren't going to get 100k out of most any setup (aside from stock) without spring replacement and head freshening (guides, valvejob, etc).
2. Flow numbers are neither comparable, nor are they a reliable indicator of potential.
3. If the car is currently running, don't start buying parts until you have the money to complete the project. If $1k over what you planned would stop your build, keep saving.
4. Erik is right - if you put a mediocre top-end on a stellar short block, you're going to be out run by stock short block guys with higher-end heads & valve train.
1. You aren't going to get 100k out of most any setup (aside from stock) without spring replacement and head freshening (guides, valvejob, etc).
2. Flow numbers are neither comparable, nor are they a reliable indicator of potential.
3. If the car is currently running, don't start buying parts until you have the money to complete the project. If $1k over what you planned would stop your build, keep saving.
4. Erik is right - if you put a mediocre top-end on a stellar short block, you're going to be out run by stock short block guys with higher-end heads & valve train.
Stamped Parts)"
2. then why bother posting them on your website? they are utterly useless but ya we post them on our website. go us!
3. this is just a big plan ahead, im just starting bolt ons. in the end ill have around 25k in the car, and it will out run 2006+ c6 z06 corvettes that cost 100k haha.
4.i hope AI's all forged 383 rotating assembly isnt stellar set up for a short block
thanks for the help though, always glad to make sure im on the right path
07-16-2009, 10:35 AM
#18
Heads It has to be a proportionate complete package, meaning each item, cam, heads, compression, intake ect compliment each other. I have seen motors with huge runners, big cams and then another with smaller heads, smaller cams that made more tq and power because it was the right combo...
07-16-2009, 10:45 AM
#19
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1. i have plans to buy replacement springs for the car, and the AI quote says: "Pacaloy 1220 Beehive Spring w/Custom Hardened & Machined 10deg Steel Components (Not Inferior
Stamped Parts)"
2. then why bother posting them on your website? they are utterly useless but ya we post them on our website. go us!
3. this is just a big plan ahead, im just starting bolt ons. in the end ill have around 25k in the car, and it will out run 2006+ c6 z06 corvettes that cost 100k haha.
4.i hope AI's all forged 383 rotating assembly isnt stellar set up for a short block
thanks for the help though, always glad to make sure im on the right path
Stamped Parts)"
2. then why bother posting them on your website? they are utterly useless but ya we post them on our website. go us!
3. this is just a big plan ahead, im just starting bolt ons. in the end ill have around 25k in the car, and it will out run 2006+ c6 z06 corvettes that cost 100k haha.
4.i hope AI's all forged 383 rotating assembly isnt stellar set up for a short block
thanks for the help though, always glad to make sure im on the right path
07-16-2009, 10:54 AM
#20
FormerVendor
It has to be a proportionate complete package, meaning each item, cam, heads, compression, intake ect compliment each other. I have seen motors with huge runners, big cams and then another with smaller heads, smaller cams that made more tq and power because it was the right combo...