Questions to make you think.
12-08-2009, 07:29 PM
#1
Questions to make you think. I have a question or two or three that has been bugging me lately.
1. Why is everyone so hell bent on ported stock heads? I understand they are making decent power, but still. How many of the high HP SBC engines have ported stock castings......I don't care what head you start with. If you wanna go old school...the old camel hump heads have gone the way of the dodo since the inception of the aluminum head.....the L98 heads were good aluminum castings from the factory, and they were surpassed by the Vortecs. The Vortecs don't flow crap by comparison to say a DART PRO 1 or even an AFR head. Now I also understand that the aftermarket support for out little 'ole LTx motors is lacking, but there is no reason that everyone on this board should be recommending a stock ported head. I get the feeling the guys on this board do nothing but follow one another around like little lost sheep. There are a few guys who port heads and have gotten them to flow exceptionally well but they've done that all through the SBC's history. And they only get better as the aftermarket produces new heads. From what I can tell there were a few guys who made good power on stock castings and everyone else copies it and settles for what they've done. So of the 20K (ie.) guys on this board, there are 1K (ie.) variations of the same combination, because they all like the way it performed. But if everyone follows the same path the aftermarket will NOT make more parts because there is no one willing to vary from the beaten path. I realize these cars/ engines have been around for well over a decade now, but when the original came out it was the most popular engine to modify in the same time frame......why? Because the true hot rodders to chances and experimented. I know no one here wants to wast their hard earned money.....myself included. But if you make informed decisions, you won't wast your money. That requires that you know what your goals are and weather or not they are even attainable. My personal goal is to do a 408 that makes 600 crank HP N/A. Then from there I'll slap a little bit of spray and have fun. Now I'm dealing with a car that will be a mostly street car....but it will be fun. I can guarantee that I will NOT be using stock ported castings. In fact I'm thinking that I'll use some converted SBC Dart Pro 1's that out flow the LT1 version significantly (their CNC intake ports are 240cc+). Now the only thing I don't have down is the cam specs, and I plan on getting a lot of opinions before I make my decision. I also figure is a Gen 1 SBC can do 600 hp reliably (that they do all the time now), why can't we. I think we need to branch out and take a few more risks, and maybe the aftermarket will notice we do exist and start making more parts....like 4" stroke 1pc rear main seal cranks.....
This is more just to get people thinking......if you don't take a risk, there will be no reward
This is more of one question and answer just to get people thinking.....
1. Why is everyone so hell bent on ported stock heads? I understand they are making decent power, but still. How many of the high HP SBC engines have ported stock castings......I don't care what head you start with. If you wanna go old school...the old camel hump heads have gone the way of the dodo since the inception of the aluminum head.....the L98 heads were good aluminum castings from the factory, and they were surpassed by the Vortecs. The Vortecs don't flow crap by comparison to say a DART PRO 1 or even an AFR head. Now I also understand that the aftermarket support for out little 'ole LTx motors is lacking, but there is no reason that everyone on this board should be recommending a stock ported head. I get the feeling the guys on this board do nothing but follow one another around like little lost sheep. There are a few guys who port heads and have gotten them to flow exceptionally well but they've done that all through the SBC's history. And they only get better as the aftermarket produces new heads. From what I can tell there were a few guys who made good power on stock castings and everyone else copies it and settles for what they've done. So of the 20K (ie.) guys on this board, there are 1K (ie.) variations of the same combination, because they all like the way it performed. But if everyone follows the same path the aftermarket will NOT make more parts because there is no one willing to vary from the beaten path. I realize these cars/ engines have been around for well over a decade now, but when the original came out it was the most popular engine to modify in the same time frame......why? Because the true hot rodders to chances and experimented. I know no one here wants to wast their hard earned money.....myself included. But if you make informed decisions, you won't wast your money. That requires that you know what your goals are and weather or not they are even attainable. My personal goal is to do a 408 that makes 600 crank HP N/A. Then from there I'll slap a little bit of spray and have fun. Now I'm dealing with a car that will be a mostly street car....but it will be fun. I can guarantee that I will NOT be using stock ported castings. In fact I'm thinking that I'll use some converted SBC Dart Pro 1's that out flow the LT1 version significantly (their CNC intake ports are 240cc+). Now the only thing I don't have down is the cam specs, and I plan on getting a lot of opinions before I make my decision. I also figure is a Gen 1 SBC can do 600 hp reliably (that they do all the time now), why can't we. I think we need to branch out and take a few more risks, and maybe the aftermarket will notice we do exist and start making more parts....like 4" stroke 1pc rear main seal cranks.....
This is more just to get people thinking......if you don't take a risk, there will be no reward
This is more of one question and answer just to get people thinking.....
12-08-2009, 07:36 PM
#2
Id just go with some AFRs and get them ported then you can have the best head on the market and bang for the buck. Stock ported work well for what people want to achieve and everyday driving. For those that even want to make the power you have they will have to get some aftermarket heads.
12-08-2009, 07:40 PM
#3
But that's my point......per say......I'm building for durability, so I want this engine to be DD reliable, hell it will be on the power tour after the new engine is in it.....I'm wondering why no one else is willing to step out and as car craft puts it "Dare to be Different" (yes I know they're referring to make/ models of builds but it still applies).
12-08-2009, 09:42 PM
#4
COMPLETELY agree with you!
The only thing im going to invest in my stock heads is pocket porting. Stock heads can go along way but I dont see the point in investing so much money into them. The vortec design outflows what we have and those heads are dated. I've always wanted to convert some SBC heads myself. I really, really, dont understand why there are no aftermarket heads starting out at 230cc+ for an affordable price. And I do think part of the reason is that everyone is so hell-bent on using stock heads. Why? learn from what the LS guys are doing. They have lots of options and are always looking for more, rather than being content.
The only thing im going to invest in my stock heads is pocket porting. Stock heads can go along way but I dont see the point in investing so much money into them. The vortec design outflows what we have and those heads are dated. I've always wanted to convert some SBC heads myself. I really, really, dont understand why there are no aftermarket heads starting out at 230cc+ for an affordable price. And I do think part of the reason is that everyone is so hell-bent on using stock heads. Why? learn from what the LS guys are doing. They have lots of options and are always looking for more, rather than being content.
12-09-2009, 04:19 AM
#5
seeing as my ported stock castings are making my big old boat run about what the NA record was when I began playing with the b-body I think the reason we use them is they WORK.
When I started playing with this car the fastest NA car was a solid roller LT4 398 with FAST, battery in trunk, 5 gallon fuel cell.
That was 11.50 at 119, mine has gone 11.56 and 116mph but I am running a street setup with battery in stock location, stock fuel tank, AC and all and these days the fastest NA Impala is 10.5 with THE SAME PORTED STOCK HEADS I am running.
What that means is YOU are the closed minded one, you are the one that believes that since the gen 1 needs aftermarket castings so must the LT1. You are so closed minded you wont see the GM casting is a vastly better starting point than the gen 1 stuff was.
It does have limits but those limits are beyond what most of us are looking for, that is why we use the GM casting.
When I started playing with this car the fastest NA car was a solid roller LT4 398 with FAST, battery in trunk, 5 gallon fuel cell.
That was 11.50 at 119, mine has gone 11.56 and 116mph but I am running a street setup with battery in stock location, stock fuel tank, AC and all and these days the fastest NA Impala is 10.5 with THE SAME PORTED STOCK HEADS I am running.
What that means is YOU are the closed minded one, you are the one that believes that since the gen 1 needs aftermarket castings so must the LT1. You are so closed minded you wont see the GM casting is a vastly better starting point than the gen 1 stuff was.
It does have limits but those limits are beyond what most of us are looking for, that is why we use the GM casting.
12-09-2009, 07:07 AM
#6
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I think it comes down to ones budget and the real fact of a stock head working.
There are numerous 9 sec NA car and one being Ed Wright. There are many 10 sec NA cars. There are many 9sec power adder cars.
all stock headed
I'm not saying a TFS or AFR can not make more power or have a better deck for high HP cars. These usually take many upgrades though after the actual cost to perform as needed on most setups which again adds to costs.
I feel my car runs very well for a stock ported LT1 head. 2.00/1.60 valves and stock intake. I will most likely be changing my top end around, but it will again be a stock ported casting ( LT4 )
believe it our not I work on a tighter budget and my car is not shop paid for, so I do the best I can with what I can afford + lots of my budget go to looking pretty while going fast
just my little feedback if anyone cares
There are numerous 9 sec NA car and one being Ed Wright. There are many 10 sec NA cars. There are many 9sec power adder cars.
all stock headed
I'm not saying a TFS or AFR can not make more power or have a better deck for high HP cars. These usually take many upgrades though after the actual cost to perform as needed on most setups which again adds to costs.
I feel my car runs very well for a stock ported LT1 head. 2.00/1.60 valves and stock intake. I will most likely be changing my top end around, but it will again be a stock ported casting ( LT4 )
believe it our not I work on a tighter budget and my car is not shop paid for, so I do the best I can with what I can afford + lots of my budget go to looking pretty while going fast
just my little feedback if anyone cares
12-09-2009, 07:16 AM
#7
Wow! The short answer is that everyone is either concerned about the initial costs or concerned about an untested / new design.
They can be concerned about the initial costs because ported stock heads cost less (initially) and, thanks to a couple of very good firms, perform very well. They can also be concerned about the untested design because nobody wants to spend $X number of dollars on an “untested” / new design, because of the concern of the “ripple” effect; meaning since you changed your stock heads, you now are required to change your: intake, water pump, exhaust manifolds, etc…
Do ported stock heads perform superior to any and all new LT head designs? No. Can they be made to flow much better than stock and support all your current and future needs? Maybe, but with 600 HP in mind as your first future goal - in my opinion - only with a lot of rework to the ports and bowls, and the complete replacement of all stock parts. Ultimately, reworked stockers will probably cost more and will still have the same physical limitations of the original design.
Newer, aftermarket heads have the following advantages: their newer, made of less stressed aluminum, they use advanced solid modeling software (which didn’t even exist in 1997 – the last year of the LT engine) which will provide superior flow numbers before any extra modifications, they are made using the latest advances in metal casting techniques, and they use modern (i.e. – from THIS century!) 5-axis CNC techniques which will ensure consistent flow numbers from cylinder to cylinder.
They can be concerned about the initial costs because ported stock heads cost less (initially) and, thanks to a couple of very good firms, perform very well. They can also be concerned about the untested design because nobody wants to spend $X number of dollars on an “untested” / new design, because of the concern of the “ripple” effect; meaning since you changed your stock heads, you now are required to change your: intake, water pump, exhaust manifolds, etc…
Do ported stock heads perform superior to any and all new LT head designs? No. Can they be made to flow much better than stock and support all your current and future needs? Maybe, but with 600 HP in mind as your first future goal - in my opinion - only with a lot of rework to the ports and bowls, and the complete replacement of all stock parts. Ultimately, reworked stockers will probably cost more and will still have the same physical limitations of the original design.
Newer, aftermarket heads have the following advantages: their newer, made of less stressed aluminum, they use advanced solid modeling software (which didn’t even exist in 1997 – the last year of the LT engine) which will provide superior flow numbers before any extra modifications, they are made using the latest advances in metal casting techniques, and they use modern (i.e. – from THIS century!) 5-axis CNC techniques which will ensure consistent flow numbers from cylinder to cylinder.
Last edited by great421; 12-09-2009 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Removal of hyperbole – my apologies to ALL parties.
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12-09-2009, 07:32 AM
#8
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Not everyone is building an engine like duh is (or has the money to), so ported stock heads do fine. Anyone that want to make big power can do so. IMHO, taking risks has nothing to do with it. It is more due to economics.
12-09-2009, 07:34 AM
#9
RE: "great421"
Dude, you're retarded. If YOU spent more time making MORE power than everyone else by trying NEW things that have never been done before then you might have a license to slam everyone else, but from what I can tell you havent done that. Therefore no one is gonna listen to this bullshit. They're not gonna take that kind of attitude from someone who is trying to psychoanalyze everyone who doesnt do something inordinate with their setup.
I'll ask you a rhetorical question (one designed to prove a point, ya know) what head has set more records than anything out there?
If there was sooo much more potential in aftermarket castings, they would be dominating, period. For a MAX EFFORT build (something most people will NEVER undertake) aftermarket SBC 15 or 18 deg head is the way to go, but for the vast majority (and I mean 98%) of people will NEVER need more out of there build than ported stock 23deg castings can provide. Nor could they take advantage of aftermarket castings if they did have them.
I agree with SOME of what you're saying, but your approach is just wack dude.
Go work on your damn car and stay off the internet for a while. Damn
Dude, you're retarded. If YOU spent more time making MORE power than everyone else by trying NEW things that have never been done before then you might have a license to slam everyone else, but from what I can tell you havent done that. Therefore no one is gonna listen to this bullshit. They're not gonna take that kind of attitude from someone who is trying to psychoanalyze everyone who doesnt do something inordinate with their setup.
I'll ask you a rhetorical question (one designed to prove a point, ya know) what head has set more records than anything out there?
If there was sooo much more potential in aftermarket castings, they would be dominating, period. For a MAX EFFORT build (something most people will NEVER undertake) aftermarket SBC 15 or 18 deg head is the way to go, but for the vast majority (and I mean 98%) of people will NEVER need more out of there build than ported stock 23deg castings can provide. Nor could they take advantage of aftermarket castings if they did have them.
I agree with SOME of what you're saying, but your approach is just wack dude.
Go work on your damn car and stay off the internet for a while. Damn
12-09-2009, 07:39 AM
#10
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12-09-2009, 08:24 AM
#11
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GREAT421
cheap or scared? wow! who are you to make a comment like that?
I'm neither and I do not feel most here are either. I do work with my budget and like showing my customers what can work with a more budget minded combo. The setup in my car is not a $1000 motor, but I know people have far more money in combo's and not near as fast as mine or customer we have worked with. This is not a knock at anyone either and just trying to make a point to Mr 421.
why do people post about builds and people follow? well they are looking for great results and when a setup is proven people duplicate it
look at AI and LE H/C combos using stock castings and how fast they have ran.. reliably
again many have proven stock heads can work as well if not better and the performance comes from a thought out combo not just a brand name parts
I hope to do this new LT4 head and Vic Jr. setup over winter and see what another CHEAP ( as you call it ) alternative will bring for me.
if people just had an endless budget to work with then everyone would have exotic strokers, aftermarket castings, foggers, turbo setups etc , but it just not the way it works for everyone
cheap or scared? wow! who are you to make a comment like that?
I'm neither and I do not feel most here are either. I do work with my budget and like showing my customers what can work with a more budget minded combo. The setup in my car is not a $1000 motor, but I know people have far more money in combo's and not near as fast as mine or customer we have worked with. This is not a knock at anyone either and just trying to make a point to Mr 421.
why do people post about builds and people follow? well they are looking for great results and when a setup is proven people duplicate it
look at AI and LE H/C combos using stock castings and how fast they have ran.. reliably
again many have proven stock heads can work as well if not better and the performance comes from a thought out combo not just a brand name parts
I hope to do this new LT4 head and Vic Jr. setup over winter and see what another CHEAP ( as you call it ) alternative will bring for me.
if people just had an endless budget to work with then everyone would have exotic strokers, aftermarket castings, foggers, turbo setups etc , but it just not the way it works for everyone
Last edited by LS1 SPEED; 12-09-2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: revised things to sound a little nicer :)
12-09-2009, 09:55 AM
#12
Larry, I agree with you guys whole heartedly. I've followed a few of your cars from the past.....this current car is working......Hell the old black car REALLY worked. I've been around the block a few times....and to tell everyone the truth I'm not rich. I have a family, and bills and two little girls. Infact the camaro is currently my DD in Chicagoland.....tell me you would enjoy that! Now as far as my engine build......it's going to take time. I'm not doing this on a budget only because I know if I try I will fail. I have goals for power and I will pay to make that power reliably. I'm not concerned how long it take because right now I have zero issues with the engine in my car...and who really wants to DD a 600+hp car...... Now I understand that stock castings have taken alot of these cars to the 9's without issues.....but I feel as if everyone here settles, because they know what has been done. I'm just curious why noone seems to try and push the envelope? Is everyone just content to say "I have a 400rwhp car so I'm done." This is the general feeling I get from this board.....aside from the prerequisite AI v. LE fight......Which if I wanted to be just like everyone else I would definately be looking at a 200cc head.......but I'm wierd I want bigger....
Now again this is only my opinion and it was just to get people thinking....
Now again this is only my opinion and it was just to get people thinking....
12-09-2009, 10:46 AM
#14
If I had unlimited $$$$$ Of cousre I would own a AFR 227 headed 396 w/a SR cam etc......but the budget didnt allow that and theres some amazingly fast cars running stock ported heads.
Also I think its kinda cool how fast a car can go still utilizing the factory heads, when everyone says they are crap and the limiting factor of our cars.
Also I think its kinda cool how fast a car can go still utilizing the factory heads, when everyone says they are crap and the limiting factor of our cars.
12-09-2009, 11:31 AM
#15
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I understand the reasoning behind your post. There are so many times I push people to wait, save and do it right to fully get their goals.
when you start building let me know if we can help with any parts
me...I would love a killer AFR or TFS head setup, but for me I just can't stretch it now. The current combo runs so good & I want to just make some small changes and keep pushing a stock casting. The new goal is to go mid-low 9's next year and still drive it everywhere I do now.
driving in the **** Chicago weather with my toy? no way in hell and it sucks you have to do that. I hate getting it wet or racing since it gets dirty
when you start building let me know if we can help with any parts
me...I would love a killer AFR or TFS head setup, but for me I just can't stretch it now. The current combo runs so good & I want to just make some small changes and keep pushing a stock casting. The new goal is to go mid-low 9's next year and still drive it everywhere I do now.
driving in the **** Chicago weather with my toy? no way in hell and it sucks you have to do that. I hate getting it wet or racing since it gets dirty
12-09-2009, 11:48 AM
#16
I'd say it's because the people that actually pay for this site are the sponsors. Sponsors sell products. Sponsors pay the bills. You come here, you buy products from sponsors.
It's pretty simple, you see.
Oh and don't get me started on the time I called IB (the owner of the forums) and posed as a wannabe sponsor. They told me how much money they make on us.. it's sick.
12-09-2009, 12:26 PM
#17
Larry, you and I will definitely be talking on parts. It may be awhile but we will be in touch. And I truely hope you get your car where it should be with the big shot. In fact your dad and I were talking yesterday morning about his car at GLD on motor and how much he loves the new intake tubing. The biggest thing I wish you guys would do is start tuning the 93's. I know it's a slim market, but it would be nice to have someone local. As for budgets......I talked with the wife...as long as we don't go bankrupt I can spend money on the car....too bad she didn't specify how much.....
12-09-2009, 12:28 PM
#18
seeing as my ported stock castings are making my big old boat run about what the NA record was when I began playing with the b-body I think the reason we use them is they WORK.
When I started playing with this car the fastest NA car was a solid roller LT4 398 with FAST, battery in trunk, 5 gallon fuel cell.
That was 11.50 at 119, mine has gone 11.56 and 116mph but I am running a street setup with battery in stock location, stock fuel tank, AC and all and these days the fastest NA Impala is 10.5 with THE SAME PORTED STOCK HEADS I am running.
What that means is YOU are the closed minded one, you are the one that believes that since the gen 1 needs aftermarket castings so must the LT1. You are so closed minded you wont see the GM casting is a vastly better starting point than the gen 1 stuff was.
It does have limits but those limits are beyond what most of us are looking for, that is why we use the GM casting.
When I started playing with this car the fastest NA car was a solid roller LT4 398 with FAST, battery in trunk, 5 gallon fuel cell.
That was 11.50 at 119, mine has gone 11.56 and 116mph but I am running a street setup with battery in stock location, stock fuel tank, AC and all and these days the fastest NA Impala is 10.5 with THE SAME PORTED STOCK HEADS I am running.
What that means is YOU are the closed minded one, you are the one that believes that since the gen 1 needs aftermarket castings so must the LT1. You are so closed minded you wont see the GM casting is a vastly better starting point than the gen 1 stuff was.
It does have limits but those limits are beyond what most of us are looking for, that is why we use the GM casting.
12-09-2009, 12:29 PM
#19
I think it comes down to ones budget and the real fact of a stock head working.
There are numerous 9 sec NA car and one being Ed Wright. There are many 10 sec NA cars. There are many 9sec power adder cars.
all stock headed
I'm not saying a TFS or AFR can not make more power or have a better deck for high HP cars. These usually take many upgrades though after the actual cost to perform as needed on most setups which again adds to costs.
I feel my car runs very well for a stock ported LT1 head. 2.00/1.60 valves and stock intake. I will most likely be changing my top end around, but it will again be a stock ported casting ( LT4 )
believe it our not I work on a tighter budget and my car is not shop paid for, so I do the best I can with what I can afford + lots of my budget go to looking pretty while going fast
just my little feedback if anyone cares
There are numerous 9 sec NA car and one being Ed Wright. There are many 10 sec NA cars. There are many 9sec power adder cars.
all stock headed
I'm not saying a TFS or AFR can not make more power or have a better deck for high HP cars. These usually take many upgrades though after the actual cost to perform as needed on most setups which again adds to costs.
I feel my car runs very well for a stock ported LT1 head. 2.00/1.60 valves and stock intake. I will most likely be changing my top end around, but it will again be a stock ported casting ( LT4 )
believe it our not I work on a tighter budget and my car is not shop paid for, so I do the best I can with what I can afford + lots of my budget go to looking pretty while going fast
just my little feedback if anyone cares
12-09-2009, 12:34 PM
#20
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I've been thinking that for years (not just LT1 but the whole forum).
I'd say it's because the people that actually pay for this site are the sponsors. Sponsors sell products. Sponsors pay the bills. You come here, you buy products from sponsors.
It's pretty simple, you see.
Oh and don't get me started on the time I called IB (the owner of the forums) and posed as a wannabe sponsor. They told me how much money they make on us.. it's sick.
I'd say it's because the people that actually pay for this site are the sponsors. Sponsors sell products. Sponsors pay the bills. You come here, you buy products from sponsors.
It's pretty simple, you see.
Oh and don't get me started on the time I called IB (the owner of the forums) and posed as a wannabe sponsor. They told me how much money they make on us.. it's sick.