Clutch problems!
12-20-2009, 01:16 PM
#21
Well when i split my disc, it dident make any noise at all. Its just stuck to and not grinding against the pressure plate. My pedal was very free moving too now that i think about it, and i felt a small vibration in the pedal. Seriously, i would just pull the damn thing out, if it wer your hydraulisc, it would have a different feel to the pedal. It wont cost anything but an hour or two to inspect the clutch. And its very easy. The only special tool you ned is a clutch alignment tool, and if you dont have one you can rent one from checker or any parts store.
Just a theory, but if your pedal is super loose and the fork is dangling in there, maby the disc shattered, and when you put the clutch in to hit 2nd, it all piled up between the flywheel and pressure plate. So basically the disc is packed in there and the clutch is stuck open.
Are there no vibrations at all?
Just a theory, but if your pedal is super loose and the fork is dangling in there, maby the disc shattered, and when you put the clutch in to hit 2nd, it all piled up between the flywheel and pressure plate. So basically the disc is packed in there and the clutch is stuck open.
Are there no vibrations at all?
12-20-2009, 04:25 PM
#23
TECH Regular
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It could very well be a bad master cylinder, I know from experience. My clutch pedal felt completely normal but I couldn't get my clutch to disengage completely- and hydraulics like anything else do wear down with time and eventually need to be rebuilt or replaced. I installed a new master cylinder, poured in new fluid, bled it, and my problem was solved.
The master is kind of tricky to replace though. Youve gotta unbolt the 2 bolts in the firewall to release it and unplug the reservoir hose. The if I recall correctly you can pull it out of the bottom of the car and disconnect the high-pressure hose that goes to the slave.
Oh and just a piece of advice on your clutchfork: you'll know when its fully engaged on the throwout bearing when the round indent on the fork is centered exactly between the 2 studs that stick out of the bellhousing that the slave bolts to.
If the pedal feels normal then the forks engaged fully to the throwout bearing. If the pedal is hard as a rock than its not completely enaged. In this case don't try to push the hard pedal or your slave cylinder will most likely explode and puke all over your garage floor (i know from experience).
If youre still uneasy about the fork and you want to replace it, you pretty much have to 75% remove the transmission. It doesn't have to come out completely, just slid back enough while being supported that you can get a 13mm combination wrench up there to unbolt the 1 bolt that holds it in place. Unfortunately you'll still have to unbolt the driveshaft, torquearm, shifter, etc to do this.
Its hard to explain without seeing it, but theres a 'T fitting' that bolts directly to the transmission near the input shaft. The clutchfork pivots off that. Its only held to this 'T fitting' by a tiny piece of sheet metal (this allows you to engage and disengage the fork by hand without removing the tranny). If your clutchfork feels abnormally loose it MIGHT be because that little piece of sheetmetal got accidently bent from the clutch install. If this is the case I doubt you have anyhting to worry about as it wouldn't be causing your disengagement problems, let alone any problems. That's just my $.02 though.
One more piece of info that might help in diagnosing the problem (before my post turns into an even longer essay): LT1 hydraulics are idiot-proof self-adjusting systems. Where ever the slave cylinder comes to rest (with no load on it, pedal out) becomes the new starting point for hydraulic movement. Also, the slave cylinder has a potential movement range MUCH greater than what would ever be needed to fully disengage a clutch; however, it will only move as far as the master cylinder will push it-- and the master cylinder only has a displacement just big enough to push the slave far enough to disengage a clutch.
The master is kind of tricky to replace though. Youve gotta unbolt the 2 bolts in the firewall to release it and unplug the reservoir hose. The if I recall correctly you can pull it out of the bottom of the car and disconnect the high-pressure hose that goes to the slave.
Oh and just a piece of advice on your clutchfork: you'll know when its fully engaged on the throwout bearing when the round indent on the fork is centered exactly between the 2 studs that stick out of the bellhousing that the slave bolts to.
If the pedal feels normal then the forks engaged fully to the throwout bearing. If the pedal is hard as a rock than its not completely enaged. In this case don't try to push the hard pedal or your slave cylinder will most likely explode and puke all over your garage floor (i know from experience).
If youre still uneasy about the fork and you want to replace it, you pretty much have to 75% remove the transmission. It doesn't have to come out completely, just slid back enough while being supported that you can get a 13mm combination wrench up there to unbolt the 1 bolt that holds it in place. Unfortunately you'll still have to unbolt the driveshaft, torquearm, shifter, etc to do this.
Its hard to explain without seeing it, but theres a 'T fitting' that bolts directly to the transmission near the input shaft. The clutchfork pivots off that. Its only held to this 'T fitting' by a tiny piece of sheet metal (this allows you to engage and disengage the fork by hand without removing the tranny). If your clutchfork feels abnormally loose it MIGHT be because that little piece of sheetmetal got accidently bent from the clutch install. If this is the case I doubt you have anyhting to worry about as it wouldn't be causing your disengagement problems, let alone any problems. That's just my $.02 though.
One more piece of info that might help in diagnosing the problem (before my post turns into an even longer essay): LT1 hydraulics are idiot-proof self-adjusting systems. Where ever the slave cylinder comes to rest (with no load on it, pedal out) becomes the new starting point for hydraulic movement. Also, the slave cylinder has a potential movement range MUCH greater than what would ever be needed to fully disengage a clutch; however, it will only move as far as the master cylinder will push it-- and the master cylinder only has a displacement just big enough to push the slave far enough to disengage a clutch.
12-21-2009, 01:34 AM
#24
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgiaaaaaa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No vibrations, grinding, screeching, slipping, squealing, etc. It holds every gear with just about ANY amount of throttle at nearly any speed, with no slipping or anything. lol. It's weird, EVERYTHING was 100% before I did the 1st-2nd shift. And like I said, no noises or weird feelings anywhere.
Just to make sure I go about this in the right order, I should probably pull the dust cover to check for clutch pieces, as if it might have shattered. If there are no pieces, I need to somehow check the master cylinder (any suggestions?).
As far as the clutch fork, it'll move towards the center and the opposite direction (towards the housing), and towards the front of the car, and back towards the rear of the car. If that makes sense. I'm a little unsure on this as I don't know what it's supposed to feel like.
Maybe my swift chuck norris kick to the clutch pedal for the 1-2 shift was just more than the ole master cylinder could handle.
Everyone that has replied, your help is GREATLY appreciated! I'll pull the dust cover asap and if all looks well, I'll check the master cylinder if there's a way.
Just to make sure I go about this in the right order, I should probably pull the dust cover to check for clutch pieces, as if it might have shattered. If there are no pieces, I need to somehow check the master cylinder (any suggestions?).
As far as the clutch fork, it'll move towards the center and the opposite direction (towards the housing), and towards the front of the car, and back towards the rear of the car. If that makes sense. I'm a little unsure on this as I don't know what it's supposed to feel like.
Maybe my swift chuck norris kick to the clutch pedal for the 1-2 shift was just more than the ole master cylinder could handle.
Everyone that has replied, your help is GREATLY appreciated! I'll pull the dust cover asap and if all looks well, I'll check the master cylinder if there's a way.
12-21-2009, 10:09 AM
#25
TECH Resident
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Visalia, Ca
Posts: 993
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it shouldnt move at all towards the front of the car pushing inon it is your retaining clip still on the fork?
we had this sameproblem when i installed my new clutch at 90K the fork was soon worn it wasent disengauging all they way.gm didnt have one in stock for a week so we welded materal on the piviot surface and the fork ends just so it would pull it out enough problem solved
have you tried the above startit and try to put in gear on a flat surface and see how much it creaps?
also it took me like three time to line up the fork on the TO bearing id go for a drive it didnt feel right so id pop it off and realign it
we had this sameproblem when i installed my new clutch at 90K the fork was soon worn it wasent disengauging all they way.gm didnt have one in stock for a week so we welded materal on the piviot surface and the fork ends just so it would pull it out enough problem solved
have you tried the above startit and try to put in gear on a flat surface and see how much it creaps?
also it took me like three time to line up the fork on the TO bearing id go for a drive it didnt feel right so id pop it off and realign it
12-21-2009, 10:34 AM
#26
Launching!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW FLORIDA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriously dude just pull the tranny it isnt that difficult, check the clutch/pp assembly and find the problem that way. if you hydraulics feel normal then the problem is not there.
Answer this What happens when you start the car with the shifter in 1st gear instead on neutral, clutch to the floor, does the car lurch at all? If your disk fragged and is not releasing then the car would be moved by the starter like this.
Answer this What happens when you start the car with the shifter in 1st gear instead on neutral, clutch to the floor, does the car lurch at all? If your disk fragged and is not releasing then the car would be moved by the starter like this.
12-21-2009, 12:10 PM
#27
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgiaaaaaa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriously dude just pull the tranny it isnt that difficult, check the clutch/pp assembly and find the problem that way. if you hydraulics feel normal then the problem is not there.
Answer this What happens when you start the car with the shifter in 1st gear instead on neutral, clutch to the floor, does the car lurch at all? If your disk fragged and is not releasing then the car would be moved by the starter like this.
Answer this What happens when you start the car with the shifter in 1st gear instead on neutral, clutch to the floor, does the car lurch at all? If your disk fragged and is not releasing then the car would be moved by the starter like this.
There aren't any pieces of clutch that I can see from the dust cover, or pulling the slave cylinder/spacer and looking in (using a flash-light and the flash on the camera). Here are some pics of the fork in the places it'll go. I can see the bolt that holds it, in place and tight, so I guess that's not it.
like tbag skywalker said, could just be the master cylinder, since his felt the same as well. I called spec and they said it's most likely hydraulics... but the tech seemed like he didn't want to have the blame, lol.
Last edited by cgEvan; 12-21-2009 at 01:45 PM.
12-22-2009, 10:35 AM
#28
TECH Regular
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yea dude from the pictures your clutchfork looks completely normal to me. Its engaged in the 1st and 3rd pictures, and disengaged in the 2nd picture. If you've still got your doubts replace it but I personally wouldn't worry about it.
As for the master cylinder, before I replaced mine I couldnt really think of a way to fully diagnose it, so all I did was replace the slave cylinder (which I knew was already broken anyways). Then I replaced the master taking a chance and that ended up being the problem I was looking for.
The Spec stage2 pressure plate is a slightly harder clamping plate than stock, so its gonna make the hydraulics work a little harder. And depending on how old, many miles, and how hard your cars been driven over the years, will contribute to the failing of the hydraulic system (along with any other moving parts obviously).
The only other thing I could think of that you could try before replacing the master cylinder would be to get a mity-vac from pepboys and try bleeding the clutch with that. There might still be a little bit of air still in the system thatd be preventing the clutch from disengaging completely, but probably not.
As for the master cylinder, before I replaced mine I couldnt really think of a way to fully diagnose it, so all I did was replace the slave cylinder (which I knew was already broken anyways). Then I replaced the master taking a chance and that ended up being the problem I was looking for.
The Spec stage2 pressure plate is a slightly harder clamping plate than stock, so its gonna make the hydraulics work a little harder. And depending on how old, many miles, and how hard your cars been driven over the years, will contribute to the failing of the hydraulic system (along with any other moving parts obviously).
The only other thing I could think of that you could try before replacing the master cylinder would be to get a mity-vac from pepboys and try bleeding the clutch with that. There might still be a little bit of air still in the system thatd be preventing the clutch from disengaging completely, but probably not.
12-22-2009, 10:50 AM
#29
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgiaaaaaa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yea dude from the pictures your clutchfork looks completely normal to me. Its engaged in the 1st and 3rd pictures, and disengaged in the 2nd picture. If you've still got your doubts replace it but I personally wouldn't worry about it.
As for the master cylinder, before I replaced mine I couldnt really think of a way to fully diagnose it, so all I did was replace the slave cylinder (which I knew was already broken anyways). Then I replaced the master taking a chance and that ended up being the problem I was looking for.
The Spec stage2 pressure plate is a slightly harder clamping plate than stock, so its gonna make the hydraulics work a little harder. And depending on how old, many miles, and how hard your cars been driven over the years, will contribute to the failing of the hydraulic system (along with any other moving parts obviously).
The only other thing I could think of that you could try before replacing the master cylinder would be to get a mity-vac from pepboys and try bleeding the clutch with that. There might still be a little bit of air still in the system thatd be preventing the clutch from disengaging completely, but probably not.
As for the master cylinder, before I replaced mine I couldnt really think of a way to fully diagnose it, so all I did was replace the slave cylinder (which I knew was already broken anyways). Then I replaced the master taking a chance and that ended up being the problem I was looking for.
The Spec stage2 pressure plate is a slightly harder clamping plate than stock, so its gonna make the hydraulics work a little harder. And depending on how old, many miles, and how hard your cars been driven over the years, will contribute to the failing of the hydraulic system (along with any other moving parts obviously).
The only other thing I could think of that you could try before replacing the master cylinder would be to get a mity-vac from pepboys and try bleeding the clutch with that. There might still be a little bit of air still in the system thatd be preventing the clutch from disengaging completely, but probably not.
I was thinking the same thing as you, so I replaced the slave. The other guy saying his did the same thing as mine, but had a shattered disc, remembered his pedal went limp. It's sounding like your situationl; and you're right, the stage 2 would put a bigger strain on the hydraulics. I've tried pumping the clutch up while the car is in neutral, then immediately trying to put it in gear. No luck, but the pedal feels decent without pumping it.
Think I might just try the master cylinder
12-23-2009, 04:21 PM
#30
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgiaaaaaa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tried the master cylinder. The pedal does feel a hair firmer, but still has the problem.
If the engine is running, it will NOT go into gear unless the car is moving and it's gear/rev matched. I can start the car in gear, with the clutch pedal pressed, and it will move the car. Still no noises or anything.
If I take it to my buddy's shop to put it on the lift, I need the part, that will fix it, in hand as to not use the lift longer than 1 night (which is why I'm trying to get this diagnosed before pulling). If I had the tools/jackstands at my house, I'd just do it, unfortunately that's not an option at the moment.
If the engine is running, it will NOT go into gear unless the car is moving and it's gear/rev matched. I can start the car in gear, with the clutch pedal pressed, and it will move the car. Still no noises or anything.
If I take it to my buddy's shop to put it on the lift, I need the part, that will fix it, in hand as to not use the lift longer than 1 night (which is why I'm trying to get this diagnosed before pulling). If I had the tools/jackstands at my house, I'd just do it, unfortunately that's not an option at the moment.
12-24-2009, 12:04 AM
#31
Launching!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW FLORIDA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will it not go into ANY gear, or just first, how does reverse work from a stop? so you replaced the slave and the master right? If you replaced ALL the hydraulics and that fork looks ok I would think the problem lies with the clutch/pp assembly I would almost put money on it, if you have a lift just pull the tranny and check the clutch, should be cake with a lift. When I put my clutch in I had to do it on jackstands by myself and manhandle the damn thing back on, the T56 is a heavy sumbitch.
12-24-2009, 02:00 PM
#33
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgiaaaaaa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will it not go into ANY gear, or just first, how does reverse work from a stop? so you replaced the slave and the master right? If you replaced ALL the hydraulics and that fork looks ok I would think the problem lies with the clutch/pp assembly I would almost put money on it, if you have a lift just pull the tranny and check the clutch, should be cake with a lift. When I put my clutch in I had to do it on jackstands by myself and manhandle the damn thing back on, the T56 is a heavy sumbitch.
Thinking the same, as far as the clutch/pressure plate being the culprit, now.
The car only has 102k miles, but it might've even got changed when the spec clutch was put in.
