Build Ideas
11-11-2010, 10:20 PM
#1
Build Ideas Thinking about putting together a hefty stroker build.
I'll say right off the bat it will be funded properly for what I want to attain.
Goals, 550ish RWHP ALTHOUGH I'M NOT HUNG UP ON "NUMBERS" I just feel that's what it should produce with the parts I'm looking at putting on it.
Intended use: I want a "do it all" engine. Drive 2 hrs to the strip, run 11's (at 6000ft elevation), brutal on the street, and the ability to road race it. Which will require it to be dead nuts reliable and able to survive at high rpms for long periods of time.
Right now I'm thinking of having Clayton put together a short block and I'm looking for recommendations on parts.
I want to go into great detail on all of the parts choices and really produce some above-average results.
Crank: Callies
Rods: Something Callies probably but I want them light
Pistons: Open for recoms, I want them light, forged, etc obviously.
Ring pack. I dont know that I want to run a vacum pump for reliability purposes. If there's only 10-20hp to be gained, it's really not worth it to me. Again I want a reliable setup that can handle the abuses of road racing.
Oil pan: thinking Canton Road Race
Oil Pump: Stock with white spring.
Top end: Either comp ported AFR 210s, or AI Ported Trick Flows. Again, I want brutal tq, I dont want a giant 230 cc head.
Valvetrain: Looking for suggestions, it will NOT be cheap. Might keep my comp ultra pro mags, or I can easily sell them and move up. Jesels, TD shaft mounts, Morel Link bar lifters, etc.
Cam: Will probably work with the head supplier and a good friend to spec the cam. Probably something in the low 240's intake duration with 540ish lift for valvetrain reliability purposes. Again, road race.
I will also be looking to run the lightest valves possible to reduce the need for high spring pressures to control them.
Compression will be up there because I plan to run it on E85.
Tear it apart.
I'll say right off the bat it will be funded properly for what I want to attain.
Goals, 550ish RWHP ALTHOUGH I'M NOT HUNG UP ON "NUMBERS" I just feel that's what it should produce with the parts I'm looking at putting on it.
Intended use: I want a "do it all" engine. Drive 2 hrs to the strip, run 11's (at 6000ft elevation), brutal on the street, and the ability to road race it. Which will require it to be dead nuts reliable and able to survive at high rpms for long periods of time.
Right now I'm thinking of having Clayton put together a short block and I'm looking for recommendations on parts.
I want to go into great detail on all of the parts choices and really produce some above-average results.
Crank: Callies
Rods: Something Callies probably but I want them light
Pistons: Open for recoms, I want them light, forged, etc obviously.
Ring pack. I dont know that I want to run a vacum pump for reliability purposes. If there's only 10-20hp to be gained, it's really not worth it to me. Again I want a reliable setup that can handle the abuses of road racing.
Oil pan: thinking Canton Road Race
Oil Pump: Stock with white spring.
Top end: Either comp ported AFR 210s, or AI Ported Trick Flows. Again, I want brutal tq, I dont want a giant 230 cc head.
Valvetrain: Looking for suggestions, it will NOT be cheap. Might keep my comp ultra pro mags, or I can easily sell them and move up. Jesels, TD shaft mounts, Morel Link bar lifters, etc.
Cam: Will probably work with the head supplier and a good friend to spec the cam. Probably something in the low 240's intake duration with 540ish lift for valvetrain reliability purposes. Again, road race.
I will also be looking to run the lightest valves possible to reduce the need for high spring pressures to control them.
Compression will be up there because I plan to run it on E85.
Tear it apart.
11-12-2010, 12:04 AM
#4
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I had to email them for info.. I know flow numbers arent everything but it thinking they were around 310 at 600. They sound like pretty good heads. I was gona give em a shot but i think they would have been over kill for my setup
11-12-2010, 12:07 AM
#5
Thats pretty good considering the way AI does their flow numbers. I plan on giving them a call when I have the cash together and a better direction.
The 21 deg tf's would actually be good because I plan on getting the heads first and throwing them on my stock shortblock, then gathering everything else for the stroker and putting it together as I have the time.
The 21 deg tf's would actually be good because I plan on getting the heads first and throwing them on my stock shortblock, then gathering everything else for the stroker and putting it together as I have the time.
11-12-2010, 04:20 AM
#7
Even assuming 410 cubes... it's gonna take some serious work to make that power with a road race useable rev range. BMEP is roughly 185... gonna need some cylinder head to make that kinda steam with a small cam like that. I think 500 rwhp is realistic given your restrictions... I like JEs FSR stuff (not the SRP Pro).
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11-12-2010, 08:09 AM
#11
well as for short block ive got the callies magnum crank in mine with a set of oliver billet steel I beam's and a srp pro series forged piston........crank was a piece of art!! the rods are one of the strongest out there and they are light and the piston is verryyy light
as for heads i've been running the AI 215cc cnc trick flow and they make awesome power with the right cam you can make alot of low end torque with them.......they are extremely efficent for their port size......
as for valve train I'd def go solid roller and if your looking for durability id go with a setup like mine.......i've been running mine for 2 years and beating the snot out of it and it looks like the valvetrain bareely even ran.............heres what im runnign
Morel HIPPO SR Lightweight Link Bar Lifters
3/8" 1 Piece CP Pushrods
PSI Endurance Spring
Xcyledyne Titanium Retainers/Locks
Hollow Valves SS
and a Jesel Saft Setup
even with alot of lift (over .700 before valve lash) the thing runs absolutly flawless.....ive got over 150 passes on it.......dyno pulls....and about 2500 miles of street driving and it still runs mint!!!
Just an example of a durable setup.......i had the same durability thing in mind but im just going straight not around corners so my cam choice is a bit different than yours will be.
as for heads i've been running the AI 215cc cnc trick flow and they make awesome power with the right cam you can make alot of low end torque with them.......they are extremely efficent for their port size......
as for valve train I'd def go solid roller and if your looking for durability id go with a setup like mine.......i've been running mine for 2 years and beating the snot out of it and it looks like the valvetrain bareely even ran.............heres what im runnign
Morel HIPPO SR Lightweight Link Bar Lifters
3/8" 1 Piece CP Pushrods
PSI Endurance Spring
Xcyledyne Titanium Retainers/Locks
Hollow Valves SS
and a Jesel Saft Setup
even with alot of lift (over .700 before valve lash) the thing runs absolutly flawless.....ive got over 150 passes on it.......dyno pulls....and about 2500 miles of street driving and it still runs mint!!!
Just an example of a durable setup.......i had the same durability thing in mind but im just going straight not around corners so my cam choice is a bit different than yours will be.
11-12-2010, 08:56 AM
#12
The 500rw+ number comes up often as a goal, and is discussed constantly even though it is infrequently achieved by basic builds. While we've never had an issue making ~500rw with our NA setups, that is largely because we are typically in control of the entire top-end at a minimum. Just because a part is a known good part, doesn't make it appropriate for your particular application. That is one of the reasons you see so many guys w/ a list of 'good parts' that get outrun by guys with the 'right part' on a 350/355. If you primarily take advice from people who have met your goals, then you'll find you've significantly pared down your options.
Heads: Our TFS based heads work great in these applications. It isn't really fair to the AFR to compare it to our 215cc TFS head, as its potential is more comparable to our CNC'd GM heads.
Valve train: Given control, we can provide a setup that will reliably provide a great deal of power potential and RPM headroom/safety margin which is critical to retaining reliability. We cannot get into exact parts without operating ranges, spring life/maint schedule requirements etc.
Short block: Typically a 355/383 is the way to go. It doesn't need to have $10k in it, but you'll be hard pressed to meet your goal w/ most average 'performance' builds. Reputable builders w/ experience building actual racing engines should have no problem.
Electronics: Get rid of the LT1 pcm. Works great, but 7000rpm is "low rpm" for a small block, and the ease of adjustment and ability to hold a gear longer etc. is of great benefit if you are serious about road racing. Our 200cc CNC'd GM head with a SR will make power into the mid 7k range, much less our 215cc head which will make power to 8k on a 383.
So, in short, 500rwhp has always been easy for us since it only requires 1.5-1.6hp/cid. We have many customers who've done it with our CNC'd GM heads & a fully ported LT1 manifold or basic single plane. However, you can't really break it down to "I need X flow #, X .050 duration, or X cid to do it," so it is improbable that you can just lay out a plan based on marketing data like flow #'s and specs that don't really mean much. Success is in the details, and that doesn't mean the parts list itself, but the actual details during machining, parts prep, and assembly. Anticipate $12k bare minimum, likely 14-15, and 15-20 if you actually want 550rwhp+ NA that'll run reliably and do everything from commuting to racing.
For reference, our 212cc CNC'd 21deg TFS heads aren't on the main site, but are on the shop here: Ai 212cc CNC'd TFS 21deg Heads
They're ideal if you are looking for 450-500rwhp with a cost effective HR 355/383/396.
Good luck!
-Phil
Heads: Our TFS based heads work great in these applications. It isn't really fair to the AFR to compare it to our 215cc TFS head, as its potential is more comparable to our CNC'd GM heads.
Valve train: Given control, we can provide a setup that will reliably provide a great deal of power potential and RPM headroom/safety margin which is critical to retaining reliability. We cannot get into exact parts without operating ranges, spring life/maint schedule requirements etc.
Short block: Typically a 355/383 is the way to go. It doesn't need to have $10k in it, but you'll be hard pressed to meet your goal w/ most average 'performance' builds. Reputable builders w/ experience building actual racing engines should have no problem.
Electronics: Get rid of the LT1 pcm. Works great, but 7000rpm is "low rpm" for a small block, and the ease of adjustment and ability to hold a gear longer etc. is of great benefit if you are serious about road racing. Our 200cc CNC'd GM head with a SR will make power into the mid 7k range, much less our 215cc head which will make power to 8k on a 383.
So, in short, 500rwhp has always been easy for us since it only requires 1.5-1.6hp/cid. We have many customers who've done it with our CNC'd GM heads & a fully ported LT1 manifold or basic single plane. However, you can't really break it down to "I need X flow #, X .050 duration, or X cid to do it," so it is improbable that you can just lay out a plan based on marketing data like flow #'s and specs that don't really mean much. Success is in the details, and that doesn't mean the parts list itself, but the actual details during machining, parts prep, and assembly. Anticipate $12k bare minimum, likely 14-15, and 15-20 if you actually want 550rwhp+ NA that'll run reliably and do everything from commuting to racing.
For reference, our 212cc CNC'd 21deg TFS heads aren't on the main site, but are on the shop here: Ai 212cc CNC'd TFS 21deg Heads
They're ideal if you are looking for 450-500rwhp with a cost effective HR 355/383/396.
Good luck!
-Phil
11-12-2010, 08:42 PM
#16
well as for short block ive got the callies magnum crank in mine with a set of oliver billet steel I beam's and a srp pro series forged piston........crank was a piece of art!! the rods are one of the strongest out there and they are light and the piston is verryyy light
as for heads i've been running the AI 215cc cnc trick flow and they make awesome power with the right cam you can make alot of low end torque with them.......they are extremely efficent for their port size......
as for valve train I'd def go solid roller and if your looking for durability id go with a setup like mine.......i've been running mine for 2 years and beating the snot out of it and it looks like the valvetrain bareely even ran.............heres what im runnign
Morel HIPPO SR Lightweight Link Bar Lifters
3/8" 1 Piece CP Pushrods
PSI Endurance Spring
Xcyledyne Titanium Retainers/Locks
Hollow Valves SS
and a Jesel Saft Setup
even with alot of lift (over .700 before valve lash) the thing runs absolutly flawless.....ive got over 150 passes on it.......dyno pulls....and about 2500 miles of street driving and it still runs mint!!!
Just an example of a durable setup.......i had the same durability thing in mind but im just going straight not around corners so my cam choice is a bit different than yours will be.
as for heads i've been running the AI 215cc cnc trick flow and they make awesome power with the right cam you can make alot of low end torque with them.......they are extremely efficent for their port size......
as for valve train I'd def go solid roller and if your looking for durability id go with a setup like mine.......i've been running mine for 2 years and beating the snot out of it and it looks like the valvetrain bareely even ran.............heres what im runnign
Morel HIPPO SR Lightweight Link Bar Lifters
3/8" 1 Piece CP Pushrods
PSI Endurance Spring
Xcyledyne Titanium Retainers/Locks
Hollow Valves SS
and a Jesel Saft Setup
even with alot of lift (over .700 before valve lash) the thing runs absolutly flawless.....ive got over 150 passes on it.......dyno pulls....and about 2500 miles of street driving and it still runs mint!!!
Just an example of a durable setup.......i had the same durability thing in mind but im just going straight not around corners so my cam choice is a bit different than yours will be.
What does that Magnum crank cost, roughly?
I'm looking at Eilweins short blocks too. Pretty good deal for the quality of parts he puts in them.
11-12-2010, 08:50 PM
#17
The 500rw+ number comes up often as a goal, and is discussed constantly even though it is infrequently achieved by basic builds. While we've never had an issue making ~500rw with our NA setups, that is largely because we are typically in control of the entire top-end at a minimum. Just because a part is a known good part, doesn't make it appropriate for your particular application. That is one of the reasons you see so many guys w/ a list of 'good parts' that get outrun by guys with the 'right part' on a 350/355. If you primarily take advice from people who have met your goals, then you'll find you've significantly pared down your options.
Heads: Our TFS based heads work great in these applications. It isn't really fair to the AFR to compare it to our 215cc TFS head, as its potential is more comparable to our CNC'd GM heads.
Valve train: Given control, we can provide a setup that will reliably provide a great deal of power potential and RPM headroom/safety margin which is critical to retaining reliability. We cannot get into exact parts without operating ranges, spring life/maint schedule requirements etc.
Short block: Typically a 355/383 is the way to go. It doesn't need to have $10k in it, but you'll be hard pressed to meet your goal w/ most average 'performance' builds. Reputable builders w/ experience building actual racing engines should have no problem.
Electronics: Get rid of the LT1 pcm. Works great, but 7000rpm is "low rpm" for a small block, and the ease of adjustment and ability to hold a gear longer etc. is of great benefit if you are serious about road racing. Our 200cc CNC'd GM head with a SR will make power into the mid 7k range, much less our 215cc head which will make power to 8k on a 383.
So, in short, 500rwhp has always been easy for us since it only requires 1.5-1.6hp/cid. We have many customers who've done it with our CNC'd GM heads & a fully ported LT1 manifold or basic single plane. However, you can't really break it down to "I need X flow #, X .050 duration, or X cid to do it," so it is improbable that you can just lay out a plan based on marketing data like flow #'s and specs that don't really mean much. Success is in the details, and that doesn't mean the parts list itself, but the actual details during machining, parts prep, and assembly. Anticipate $12k bare minimum, likely 14-15, and 15-20 if you actually want 550rwhp+ NA that'll run reliably and do everything from commuting to racing.
For reference, our 212cc CNC'd 21deg TFS heads aren't on the main site, but are on the shop here: Ai 212cc CNC'd TFS 21deg Heads
They're ideal if you are looking for 450-500rwhp with a cost effective HR 355/383/396.
Good luck!
-Phil
Heads: Our TFS based heads work great in these applications. It isn't really fair to the AFR to compare it to our 215cc TFS head, as its potential is more comparable to our CNC'd GM heads.
Valve train: Given control, we can provide a setup that will reliably provide a great deal of power potential and RPM headroom/safety margin which is critical to retaining reliability. We cannot get into exact parts without operating ranges, spring life/maint schedule requirements etc.
Short block: Typically a 355/383 is the way to go. It doesn't need to have $10k in it, but you'll be hard pressed to meet your goal w/ most average 'performance' builds. Reputable builders w/ experience building actual racing engines should have no problem.
Electronics: Get rid of the LT1 pcm. Works great, but 7000rpm is "low rpm" for a small block, and the ease of adjustment and ability to hold a gear longer etc. is of great benefit if you are serious about road racing. Our 200cc CNC'd GM head with a SR will make power into the mid 7k range, much less our 215cc head which will make power to 8k on a 383.
So, in short, 500rwhp has always been easy for us since it only requires 1.5-1.6hp/cid. We have many customers who've done it with our CNC'd GM heads & a fully ported LT1 manifold or basic single plane. However, you can't really break it down to "I need X flow #, X .050 duration, or X cid to do it," so it is improbable that you can just lay out a plan based on marketing data like flow #'s and specs that don't really mean much. Success is in the details, and that doesn't mean the parts list itself, but the actual details during machining, parts prep, and assembly. Anticipate $12k bare minimum, likely 14-15, and 15-20 if you actually want 550rwhp+ NA that'll run reliably and do everything from commuting to racing.
For reference, our 212cc CNC'd 21deg TFS heads aren't on the main site, but are on the shop here: Ai 212cc CNC'd TFS 21deg Heads
They're ideal if you are looking for 450-500rwhp with a cost effective HR 355/383/396.
Good luck!
-Phil
For the record I dont plan on laying out a plan based on flow numbers and marketing. I want to work with a company who has a record of producing these kind of results, as I know you are.
I'll forget about the RWHP number. I want to build this engine for my intended use, and let the HP fall where it may. I want TQ, explosive power, on the street, off the corners, etc, and I want it reliable.
I also plan on getting rid of the LT1 engine management. Going to the EFI Connection parts to run LSX management.
