Is it just me...
12-06-2010, 02:07 PM
#41
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Supercharged V6 cars are very nice, I've owned two. A Thunderbird SC several years back and currently a Grand Prix GTP that has been my daily driver for 5 years. Ford did with the Thunderbird what you're proposing Chevy should have done with the Camaro. The SC was actually a nicer and faster model than the V8. Unfortunately it just plain didn't sell. I think it cost as much or more than the V8.
You can make them fast on stock heads and cam if you have a good intercooler, but they're not cheap. Heads and cam swaps cost about the same or more than the LT1. The aftermarket is good, but not great. Nothing like the SBC or LS markets.
The stock supercharged 3.8Ls are also significantly different from a regular 3.8L. When I used to be on the Thunderbird forums, lots of NA 3.8L people wanted to bolt on the SC parts, but very few people actually would do it because of the work required.
Supercharged V6s are great for the sound and torque, my GTP actually feels faster than the LT1 despite being a second slower in the quarter mile. But it's not really any easier or cheaper to make fast, just different.
I could mod my GTP to be as fast as my LT1 for about what I spent on the Camaro, but since the GTP is 10 years newer and worth $3-4000 more the LT1 is still more cost effective. Plus it has the manual trans.
You can make them fast on stock heads and cam if you have a good intercooler, but they're not cheap. Heads and cam swaps cost about the same or more than the LT1. The aftermarket is good, but not great. Nothing like the SBC or LS markets.
The stock supercharged 3.8Ls are also significantly different from a regular 3.8L. When I used to be on the Thunderbird forums, lots of NA 3.8L people wanted to bolt on the SC parts, but very few people actually would do it because of the work required.
Supercharged V6s are great for the sound and torque, my GTP actually feels faster than the LT1 despite being a second slower in the quarter mile. But it's not really any easier or cheaper to make fast, just different.
I could mod my GTP to be as fast as my LT1 for about what I spent on the Camaro, but since the GTP is 10 years newer and worth $3-4000 more the LT1 is still more cost effective. Plus it has the manual trans.
12-06-2010, 02:08 PM
#42
Cam swap - $1000
Heads good enough for 400whp - $1500-$2200
That pretty much eclipses the $3000
And that's not including basic bolt ons needed to get you to 400whp like headers.
And you sure as hell at that point better hope you have a T56 or good luck hitting 400whp.
Think about that, then throw in the fact that the L67 does 400 with stock injectors 5-600 with an intercooler in an auto car... and I've already proven they run good times with this power.
There really is no debate here. it's cut and dry. A factory boosted motor is cheaper/easier to make faster. The Lt1 has the displacement/v8 benefit that narrows the margin, but it definitely doesn't close the gap.
... now an ls1....
Heads good enough for 400whp - $1500-$2200
That pretty much eclipses the $3000
And that's not including basic bolt ons needed to get you to 400whp like headers.
And you sure as hell at that point better hope you have a T56 or good luck hitting 400whp.
Think about that, then throw in the fact that the L67 does 400 with stock injectors 5-600 with an intercooler in an auto car... and I've already proven they run good times with this power.
There really is no debate here. it's cut and dry. A factory boosted motor is cheaper/easier to make faster. The Lt1 has the displacement/v8 benefit that narrows the margin, but it definitely doesn't close the gap.
... now an ls1....
12-06-2010, 02:10 PM
#43
Rockers on GTPs typically gain 2-3 mpg (they did in my car and my brothers GTPs). And if you don't get into boost you don't use more fuel than stock... unlike the LT1s which when modded will suck fuel.
Travis a thunderbird is not a buick 3800 so comparing the two, tho they are both fi 3800s they are NOT the same and their aftermarket is not either.
The L36 bottom end and L67 bottom end can/have gone VERY fast completely stock and are 100% interchangeable.
If you were to stick with the M90, then of course they will fall behind the LT1.
Mod either one incorrectly and you'll be slow, and I'd consider keeping the M90 modding incorrectly.
...unless you are turbocharging the supercharger...
WSick another funny thing I noticed about my GTP, if I accelerate to speed fast as opposed to granny driving I got BETTER mpg. Dunno, suppose it's in the tune and the fact that I was accelerating for a much shorter amount of time. Dunno.
Travis a thunderbird is not a buick 3800 so comparing the two, tho they are both fi 3800s they are NOT the same and their aftermarket is not either.
The L36 bottom end and L67 bottom end can/have gone VERY fast completely stock and are 100% interchangeable.
If you were to stick with the M90, then of course they will fall behind the LT1.
Mod either one incorrectly and you'll be slow, and I'd consider keeping the M90 modding incorrectly.
...unless you are turbocharging the supercharger...
WSick another funny thing I noticed about my GTP, if I accelerate to speed fast as opposed to granny driving I got BETTER mpg. Dunno, suppose it's in the tune and the fact that I was accelerating for a much shorter amount of time. Dunno.
12-06-2010, 02:18 PM
#44
ummm doesn't LE put out a heads and cam package for 1600 bucks? comes with springs valves and such im pretty sure with the other 1400 bucks you can put it back together and he says it puts out 400+ hp. But why compare a boosted motor to a N/A motor its Apples to Oranges. by the way D/A doesn't really matter as much when your making you own atmosphere with a Turbo/SC car.
12-06-2010, 02:31 PM
#45
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I've priced out ZZP's cheapest turbo kit. Once the intercooler, injectors, and everything you need is added the price in the cart is $3800.
I've also priced out AI and LE's priciest head/cam kits with everything needed (including headers) and come to $3500-3800. I don't see a big difference.
I don't see why there's such a need for heated debate anyway, I doubt many others here own both cars. Both are good cars that can be modded effectively.
I've also priced out AI and LE's priciest head/cam kits with everything needed (including headers) and come to $3500-3800. I don't see a big difference.
I don't see why there's such a need for heated debate anyway, I doubt many others here own both cars. Both are good cars that can be modded effectively.
12-06-2010, 04:55 PM
#46
ummm doesn't LE put out a heads and cam package for 1600 bucks? comes with springs valves and such im pretty sure with the other 1400 bucks you can put it back together and he says it puts out 400+ hp. But why compare a boosted motor to a N/A motor its Apples to Oranges. by the way D/A doesn't really matter as much when your making you own atmosphere with a Turbo/SC car.
I've priced out ZZP's cheapest turbo kit. Once the intercooler, injectors, and everything you need is added the price in the cart is $3800.
I've also priced out AI and LE's priciest head/cam kits with everything needed (including headers) and come to $3500-3800. I don't see a big difference.
I don't see why there's such a need for heated debate anyway, I doubt many others here own both cars. Both are good cars that can be modded effectively.
I've also priced out AI and LE's priciest head/cam kits with everything needed (including headers) and come to $3500-3800. I don't see a big difference.
I don't see why there's such a need for heated debate anyway, I doubt many others here own both cars. Both are good cars that can be modded effectively.
Travis said it best. I'm done.
12-06-2010, 06:24 PM
#47
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Supercharged V6 cars are very nice, I've owned two. A Thunderbird SC several years back and currently a Grand Prix GTP that has been my daily driver for 5 years. Ford did with the Thunderbird what you're proposing Chevy should have done with the Camaro. The SC was actually a nicer and faster model than the V8. Unfortunately it just plain didn't sell. I think it cost as much or more than the V8.
You can make them fast on stock heads and cam if you have a good intercooler, but they're not cheap. Heads and cam swaps cost about the same or more than the LT1. The aftermarket is good, but not great. Nothing like the SBC or LS markets.
The stock supercharged 3.8Ls are also significantly different from a regular 3.8L. When I used to be on the Thunderbird forums, lots of NA 3.8L people wanted to bolt on the SC parts, but very few people actually would do it because of the work required.
Supercharged V6s are great for the sound and torque, my GTP actually feels faster than the LT1 despite being a second slower in the quarter mile. But it's not really any easier or cheaper to make fast, just different.
I could mod my GTP to be as fast as my LT1 for about what I spent on the Camaro, but since the GTP is 10 years newer and worth $3-4000 more the LT1 is still more cost effective. Plus it has the manual trans.
You can make them fast on stock heads and cam if you have a good intercooler, but they're not cheap. Heads and cam swaps cost about the same or more than the LT1. The aftermarket is good, but not great. Nothing like the SBC or LS markets.
The stock supercharged 3.8Ls are also significantly different from a regular 3.8L. When I used to be on the Thunderbird forums, lots of NA 3.8L people wanted to bolt on the SC parts, but very few people actually would do it because of the work required.
Supercharged V6s are great for the sound and torque, my GTP actually feels faster than the LT1 despite being a second slower in the quarter mile. But it's not really any easier or cheaper to make fast, just different.
I could mod my GTP to be as fast as my LT1 for about what I spent on the Camaro, but since the GTP is 10 years newer and worth $3-4000 more the LT1 is still more cost effective. Plus it has the manual trans.
12-06-2010, 07:24 PM
#48
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I know of him, and I think I might have met him once or twice when I used to go to the SC events, but I don't remember for sure. He had the SC shootout here in Dayton a couple months ago; I stopped by for a couple minutes to check out some of the cars.
12-06-2010, 07:50 PM
#49
Lmao, what cam costs $1,000? I assume your including install price on that, in which case I like how you include an install shop price for the LT1, but apparently everyone who buys a $3k turbo kit for their 3800 either does it themselves or has somebody at a local shop that owes them a lot of favors.for the price of parts alone (like your doing with the 3800) you can get an LE2 setup, Headers, CAI, and a tune for less than 3 grand...thatd be over 400whp...
12-06-2010, 07:57 PM
#50
Lmao, what cam costs $1,000? I assume your including install price on that, in which case I like how you include an install shop price for the LT1, but apparently everyone who buys a $3k turbo kit for their 3800 either does it themselves or has somebody at a local shop that owes them a lot of favors.for the price of parts alone (like your doing with the 3800) you can get an LE2 setup, Headers, CAI, and a tune for less than 3 grand...thatd be over 400whp...
12-06-2010, 09:02 PM
#51
Oh, and newsflash: The V6s got worse mpg than the V8s. Definitely LS1s get better gas mileage, and I would bet LT1s are better too, maybe the same at worst. A blower only makes it worse.
No need to get pissy, I was just throwing the idea out there. Newsflash have any LS1's or LT1's get 30mpg+..? I think not, yeah they're great on gas just not as good as a 3800. I think it'd be more of a unique idea. I've seen a ton of turbo'd v6's not any supercharged ones.
No need to get pissy, I was just throwing the idea out there. Newsflash have any LS1's or LT1's get 30mpg+..? I think not, yeah they're great on gas just not as good as a 3800. I think it'd be more of a unique idea. I've seen a ton of turbo'd v6's not any supercharged ones.
12-06-2010, 09:38 PM
#52
Oh, and newsflash: The V6s got worse mpg than the V8s. Definitely LS1s get better gas mileage, and I would bet LT1s are better too, maybe the same at worst. A blower only makes it worse.
No need to get pissy, I was just throwing the idea out there. Newsflash have any LS1's or LT1's get 30mpg+..? I think not, yeah they're great on gas just not as good as a 3800. I think it'd be more of a unique idea. I've seen a ton of turbo'd v6's not any supercharged ones.
No need to get pissy, I was just throwing the idea out there. Newsflash have any LS1's or LT1's get 30mpg+..? I think not, yeah they're great on gas just not as good as a 3800. I think it'd be more of a unique idea. I've seen a ton of turbo'd v6's not any supercharged ones.
Also, there were some whipple adapters floating around before the turbos got popular, there are also CSC kits available for the L36s too.
There's tons of options for the buick 3800 if you know where to look! Clearly Ls1tech is NOT the place to look for this information! haha.
12-07-2010, 01:36 AM
#57
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I once raced a GTP on the freeway in my 93 Z28. It was bone stock besides a shift kit. The GTP was pullied, bolt ons, and had a dyno tune. We raced a few times from 50-100+ and every time we were dead even or I would yank on him by about 1/2 a car. Adding that blown cars like top end races, I probably would have beat him worse from a dig.
There's no replacement for displacement. This is almost as bad as a Ricer vs V8 thread. The argument that the V6 will hang "MOD FOR MOD" is ******* retarded kid! You're talking about BOOST VS NA. Buy a ******* 4k blower kit and slap it on an LT1 and see how close the race is dude. ****.
There's no replacement for displacement. This is almost as bad as a Ricer vs V8 thread. The argument that the V6 will hang "MOD FOR MOD" is ******* retarded kid! You're talking about BOOST VS NA. Buy a ******* 4k blower kit and slap it on an LT1 and see how close the race is dude. ****.
12-07-2010, 08:51 AM
#58
In an f-body or anywhere? SC thunderbirds and GTPs, regals, bonnevilles, park avenue ultras, monte carlos, impalas, and I'm sure a bunch more that aren't coming to my head.
Also, there were some whipple adapters floating around before the turbos got popular, there are also CSC kits available for the L36s too.
There's tons of options for the buick 3800 if you know where to look! Clearly Ls1tech is NOT the place to look for this information! haha.
Also, there were some whipple adapters floating around before the turbos got popular, there are also CSC kits available for the L36s too.
There's tons of options for the buick 3800 if you know where to look! Clearly Ls1tech is NOT the place to look for this information! haha.
12-07-2010, 10:20 AM
#59
I once raced a GTP on the freeway in my 93 Z28. It was bone stock besides a shift kit. The GTP was pullied, bolt ons, and had a dyno tune. We raced a few times from 50-100+ and every time we were dead even or I would yank on him by about 1/2 a car. Adding that blown cars like top end races, I probably would have beat him worse from a dig.
There's no replacement for displacement. This is almost as bad as a Ricer vs V8 thread. The argument that the V6 will hang "MOD FOR MOD" is ******* retarded kid! You're talking about BOOST VS NA. Buy a ******* 4k blower kit and slap it on an LT1 and see how close the race is dude. ****.
There's no replacement for displacement. This is almost as bad as a Ricer vs V8 thread. The argument that the V6 will hang "MOD FOR MOD" is ******* retarded kid! You're talking about BOOST VS NA. Buy a ******* 4k blower kit and slap it on an LT1 and see how close the race is dude. ****.
GTPs are terrible from a roll. Go ahead and get yourself educated on roots style blowers specifically in stock setups (like the GTP imagine that).
They are terribly inefficient on the top end.
Funny, you think a turbo evens the playing field, yet the worlds fastest GTP is faster than the worlds fastest LT1 right now.
12-07-2010, 10:25 AM
#60
Oh, and they just started testing out a single turbo setup that on one of it's baseline runs went 8.9. they expect it to go low 8s. It's dyno'd I believe 100whp more or so.
I'd much rather see Z8's go 7s though.
This thread is only still going because some of you fail or refuse to read.
Edit: I already posted the same 1 turbo car already going 8.6s. Guess they are dialing it in quicker than I thought.
I'd much rather see Z8's go 7s though.
This thread is only still going because some of you fail or refuse to read.
Edit: I already posted the same 1 turbo car already going 8.6s. Guess they are dialing it in quicker than I thought.
Last edited by LSWHO; 12-07-2010 at 10:31 AM.