Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

Hello All

Well I have a F1A Procharger on the way from EPP! Bob was super to deal with and they had the best price around. I'm going with the front mount intercooler that EEP makes for the LS1 and will need a small bit of modding to work on the LT1. Bob said call911 had the same setup on his LT1 and he might know what was changed to make the kit work. He did not know, but sent me some pictures.

So... anyone out there running a front mount kit from EPP on there LT1 that could give me an idea of what needs to be changed?

Are there any other guys out there running an F1 on an LT1 that could post some pictures or hit me with a link?

My LT4 396 will be done in about 2 weeks. I have read that some guys have to do a bit of block grinding and some don't. I am planning on doing the full setup with the blower on the engine before install.


I was going to put this in the FI section but, they are more about LS1 mods.
MODS if I'm in the wrong spot make me right!

Thanks
Ross

MEAN LT1

iTrader: (2)

Im pretty much sure your going to have grind a little on the block. I was going to put this on my LT1 as well. What bracket are you goinf to run and also what fuel system are you going with?.

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

As it sits right now I'm going to run a twin, intank pump setup with stock lines. If I have to I will run new lines. I just hope the 60lbs will be good. Its going to be tuff to get good times at the track here not much air at a mile high!

Thanks
Ross

JUICED96Z

Yeah I think your main problem will be with you being in Denver.

Not much air to push into the engine. It will run good but not as good as most F1 times in other parts of the country.

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

Anyone running EPPs front mount intercooler kit out there??????

Jon@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (3)

Check out the fuel system I put in the Formula. Easy to upgrade down the road if need be to braided lines all the way up front.

I was going to put a front mount intercooler in mine but I think I will go with an air to water set up since I only drag race. The air to air coolers get warm after just doing your burn out.

T/A KID

iTrader: (12)

A few things to start. 60lb motrons, Racetronix 255 pump and a KB BAP should do about 650RWHP maybe 700 (I will find out in March or so, lol) The stock lines on the LT1 can support around 800RWHP from what I have seen, I don't see to many Ls1's do that call bob at EPP for more info.

Procharger is known for there Air-Air setups and Vortech for there Air-Water. From what I have seen an Air-air is pretty much unbeatable on the STREET and guys are running Deep Nines with street cars and these FMIC.

Bob has a Good deal at about $800.00 For the 3inch Mandrel Bent kit with a 4inch thick OBX intercooler, with T-bolt clamps and 5ply silicone housings.
You can build it a lot cheaper but you may not want to bother too much.

My car is an LT1 with a LS1 front clip so I have seen what goes into Both of them. Everything should work Quite well but you will have to fab up some kinda of suck side for the charger. I would just to a 4inch Aluminum Elbow with a Big 10inch Filter.
The F1A is a Big blower Should do Low 9's with it if the 60 foot is good and everything else is spot on. Hell I have a Buddy going 9.2's at 145 with a little 222/228 cam with a 347 and a D1SC, lol.

What do you plan on doing with a Tranny??
IF auto (again being street Friendly) I would do a 4L80E since it has the overdrive and is built like the Th400, the only downside is its about 90lb heavier than the th400. Get a Good Converter or you will have Converter Blow by, and in my Opinion you don't need a lot of gear since you should be making around 650RWTQ, you don't need a Steep gear.

Find out how hard you want to rev the motor and do a little math on which pulley's you need to run, I would get ahold of SDCE concepts for a tensioner, with a F1A you will make around 20lbs of Boost and you don't want to have Belt Slippage Problems

You would be suprised how many Lt1 Gurus hang out there.

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

THANKS Silver95 & TA/Kid


Is there a 4inch Aluminum Elbow kit that someone sells that you know of? I guess I'm in for a few surprises! I thought I was ready to go with the IC kit and the procharger setup. hehehe, what else is new! This is the 12rib setup so belt slipping should not be a problem.



Tranny...
I'm going to run the T-56 and going to send it off to t56rebuilds.com for a full upgrade. Spec 3 clutch and Spec Steel flywheel.


Over all I'm looking for 650 to 675rwhp. Do you think I will see numbers like that with about 17 pounds?

Thanks
Ross

T/A KID

iTrader: (12)

No, you need to get a Custom one made or buy one from one of the guys selling them on Here or CamaroZ28.com. I bought a 4inch 90 degree Elbow for like $25 that I think will work Perfect.
The Problem with the 12 Rib belts is that its hard to find12 Rib Belts, only Procharger sells them, and What I have witnessed there is still slip with the 12 Rib. ITs wider than the 8 Rib of course but the problem is with the Tensioner.


You'll Bust that number guys make that with T-trims maxed out and the D1SC is bigger than that, lol. You have a F1A you can get close to 750-800RWHP with a good intercooler and suckside to the blower with Awsome Tuning (Ed Wright).

Fire67

iTrader: (3)

Man, to be honest with the BSFC that motors gonna be at, I think you'd be doing a few things wrong.

I dont believe based on personal experience that a single 255 with the stock lines is gonna fuel that thing. BAP or not. Just not a big enough outlet on that pump to squeeze much more out of it. Twin pumps will be a minimum. Especially with the kinda pressures you'd need in the rails for the 60's to flow enough fuel. You'd have to raise FP to get the flow of the injectors up to 72is lb/hr.
By the time BASE FP is set, then add 17psi (with 1:1 boost referenced; 17psi boost) you'd be somewhere around 85psi total fuel pressure under full boost. There's just know way a 255 high pressure will still feed the fuel demand when the pressure goes up.
A good thing to remember is that While injector flow is increased by adding fuel pressure, pump flow is diminished as line/rail pressures climb.
Ive got or had links to results of several flow tests on the Walbro pumps, when pressure increases flow drops fairly hard, enough that a BAP isnt going to solve the problem.

As for your target HP, could have done it easily with a D1-sc, will be simple to overshoot with the F1-A.
(yet another reason you should have more fuel system)

Fire67

iTrader: (3)

I 'dead-headed' a 255 "high-pressure" at 453rwhp with a ProCharged stock LT1.

LS1's and LT1's have the same line i.d. from what Ive seen.


Stock plastic lines, the metal lines/fittings on the rails, and stock regulator will not support the flow this guy is going to need. Let alone force one bank of inectors to feed off of a more limited supply of fuel than the other side gets. The stock plumbing has the one bank of injectors feeding off of the leftover gas from the other side.

The rails themselves with the stock hardware removed and replaced will support ALOT of HP when plumbed correctly.

With a built 396 and F1-A, id be looking for a target of 700-750rwhp, 80x-87x crank HP. Figure the fuel system for an extra 50-60 crank HP for a safety margin.

SRZ

iTrader: (14)

I'm running a F1 from Bob and his LS1 FMIC. You'll have some tweaking to do w/ the IC pipes depending on how you route your discharge ducting. The discharge pipe to the intercooler I cut the bend that would route directly to the discharge tube IF the blower was installed like the LS1 and added 17" exactly so it would go straight vs the cocked angle you'll see once you get the piping. The other part of the discharge pipe connecting to the blower I cut 3" so that I could get the piping close to the back of the radiator support and prevent it from hanging. On the inlet pipe I added 4" before it reaches the TB as it's too short and that's all I did. I'll be remodifying the pipes shortly as my IC is too far back in the bumper for my liking. I also used a 180* silicone hose along w/ a 90* off the discharge tube so I'd have good ground clearance as you'll see in the pics. You'll see in pages 2,3 & 4 what I'm talking about. IC pics etc



Well worth the $ buy from Bob.

CALL911 did his a little different as well.

My fuel setup is dual walbro w/ hobbs switch from Lonnies, Fuelab regulator and filter, parallel -8 feed and -6 return, RC 72lb inj. Don't mess w/ a BAP and single pump go dual.

F1A hu? That is bigger than the F1 right? You'll be hacking the corner of the block as well as the ABS bracket to get that sucker to fit if it's bigger than a F1 and I had to to that for the F1 as well. You can see in this pic.


Post pics when you are done!

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

SRZ THANKS A TON!!!

I will be sure to post up pictures as I do the install as well! I beleave the F1A is the same size as the F1 so I will have the same mods as you! We are going to do a full setup on the stand like you did to be sure everything fits right. THANKS FOR THE PICTURES! That is just what I was looking for! I knew I would have a few things to fix and this would not just be a slap on type install.

It was $420 to upgrade to an F1 or F1A from a D1-sc. Why not? This is going to be a fun nasty street car! Only drive it about 2 or 3 time a month and only a few passes at the strip. I have always found it better to go OVERKILL and spend a bit now then to wish you would have done it after the fact. Plus the F1's SOUND makes me happy!

Fire67 do you not think twin GSS 340 Walbro intank setup will be good? What would you sugest?


Big thanks guys! I'm SO READY TO GET THIS CAR GOING!

T/A KID

iTrader: (12)

Hmmm thats strange I seen one "dead head" 53x on a Mustang Dyno with 60lb motrons and a Racetronix 255. Adding a BAP would have done another 100RWHP, which would be close to 700RWHP on a Dynojet. With the F1A I agree that Dual pumps is the way to go if he plans on making 750+RWHP, but not 650RWHP unless like he stated before he wants overkill, lol

I have seen a few LT1's make 700RWHP with the stock rails, regulator with only the BAP, 255 pump, and a 60-72lb injector. So it can be done.

SRZ

iTrader: (14)

RatRaceway not a problem! If there are any more questions feel free to ask! If you need more specific pics I could take them for you as well as my car is still on stands waiting on my XFI to return from FAST. Plus like I said I'm remodifying the IC piping as I've discovered I can move the IC 2.5" forward so the IC is damn near flush w/ the fog light opening. The IC bracket Bob supplies has to be cut down 6" but don't quote me on that as I won't know til this evening or tomorrow. It has to be cut because if you don't the bumper won't go back on. You can see how I mounted my IC initially here. But w/ the bracket I'll weld it to bumper support flush towards the front of the bumper support. This will take the stress off the plastic piece even though it's supported from the top and bottom of the IC w/ brackets.



I won't have my pipes back for another wk as they're being powder coated. I'll have to cut add 2.5" to the discharge pipe right before the inlet on the IC and do the same for the other side. I'll post pics once that's done as well.

Looking forward to seeing your progress!

Silas,

Fire67

iTrader: (3)

Dead heading a pump just means that you hit the point where the injectors are moving so much fuel out of the rail that your pump cant keep the pressure up. With my stock motor, the D1sc, and 42lb injectors I hit 100% duty cycle by 5500 rpms... Adjusted the base FP up to accomodate more flow and get the DC down, got greeted with the FP dropping hard and fast at 6000rpm.

Now with the new motor, when doing break-in, I had one of my inline walbro's fail on me (at the time they both ran at the same time). During this time I had a set of 60's on there at a base FP or 45psi. Going 1/2 - 2/3 throttle netted 5psi of boost at 4500 rpm. When the pump quit (effectively leaving me running on 1 walbro pump) as soon as it started getting into boost, the FP dropped a total of 20psi!!! Tell me a single Walbro can handle 60's and I'll shoot it down any time. I didnt read about this info, I found out in real world conditions.

Rat Raceway-
The twin in-tanks should do the job (my twin in-lines do) but doing it with 60# injectors will have your fuel pressures at the limit of the pair of pumps ability, especially since they would not be gravity fed and they would most likely be pushing through the stock lines (in tank pumps).
What I was getting at before is this: With that blower on such a large engine, you'll be able to easily eclipse your power goals, and the ability of twin walbro pumps. Although you MAY be able to get by if you run large enough injectors to keep FP down to a liveable range for the Walbro pumps. (im doing exactly this, with 75lb injectors and the FP's I'll need the pumps will be borderline)
Like you said about not wanting to regret decisions, go all out the first time, etc.. The Fuel system is not something to skimp on, go all out so youre ready when you need it.
If I could do it all over again, I would have just gone and installed the 75# injectors with an A-1000 or Eliminator. Cost wouldnt have been much different, and it would have left me ALOT of room to grow if I did the Eliminator pump.

My fuel system is laid out like this:
Stock tank, gutted and sumped
-10an feed from sump to y-block
-8an from y-block to each pump
-6an from each pump to another y-block
-8an from y-block at pumps to y-block at rails
(Y-block feed each rail equal fuel)
-out of each rail to Aeromotive A-1000-6 regulator (2 -6an inlets, 1 -6an outlet)
-6an from regulator to the top of the tank.
Works beautiful when I get into boost and the Hobbs switch turns on the 2nd pump.

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

WOW!
Great info Fire67!


I guess I will need to dig in a bit deeper for the fuel system. I have the 60's now so thats where I'm going to start. I guess the Nasty preformance Fuel tank is looking better and better! I know of a guy here in town runing a LT4 383 D1sc with the 60's and it's doing very well. The guy that is going to tune my car did his tune so, I will have to ask him.

JUST WATING FOR THE BOXES TO START SHOWING UP!!!!

Fire67

iTrader: (3)

The 60's will fuel it. You'll just have to raise the base fuel pressure to get the neccessary flow. There's a formula to figure out what flow a specific fuel pressure will get you based on the rated flow. My best estimate without going through all the math would be 58ish psi to get approx. 72-75lb/hr. Do a search on the fueling section as 58psi is stock FP for an LS1 and lots of those guys run the 60's.

Remember one thing when doing your calculations (search for the formulas too) that a 1:1 regulator raising FP with boost does not increase the injector flow. It mearly compensates for the increased manifold pressure fighting the fuel trying to come out of the injector. Basically keeps injector flow rate the same so that the puleswidth commands of the pcm can do their job correctly. However, flow out of the pump will still diminish when the pressure comes up.

[EDIT/Addition]
The problem of needing higher base fuel pressure, then adding your boost pressure to that with the 1:1 regulator... Your fuel psi will get up there pretty high, and I dont think the twin walbro's will handle it.
At least they werent going to with my target HP and 60's. But dropping fuel pressure, and installing 75#ers solved the problem. It will allow the use of the Walbros still, and have a small cushion to work with.


Take a good realistic flywheel hp estimate, do the calcs for required injector flow, and use those results to figure the pump head needed.
Basically: Inj. flow X 8 = total volume needed
Convert total lbs per hr of volume to gallons per hour: Divide total volume needed by 6.
(Its a good idea to add a cushion to this number when selecting the pump.)

Rat Raceway

iTrader: (11)

Hello All

WOW! Almost 5 months from my first post!!!
Well I HAVE ALL MY PARTS! ALL MY PARTS!

Only over shot my budget by $7000 ! I will post up pictures later today! The 396 LT4 is done and F1a Mounted!

So READY TO START WORKING ON THAT BABY!

Ross

SRZ

iTrader: (14)

Looking forward to some pics! Know what you mean in over shooting a budget. LOL!