DeanJ

iTrader: (6)

As Gen414 stated above, diagnose THE problem. I love when someone has a problem, buys a part, that part doesn't fix there problem,then flames the product for not fixing there ailment. ie: My clutch quit working, buy a new clutch, install. My new clutch don't work, tells everyone not to buy this brand. Next brand of clutch don't work. What do I do now? FIND the problem then fix it. Oh my hydraulic line had a leak. HA HA. Just an example, but you know what I mean. Maybe my rant is over, I doubt it. But have fun guys, Dean

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

LMAO!! Thanks bearcatt!


Sounds good, ready when you are....just got another clutch (level 4 Monster) installed yesterday, and have some more info gonna share in another post (but this thread)

Thanks DeanJ for teh "back-up"...even though you are a relative newcomer (what, @ 60 posts?) I have read some of yours, and I can tell, that you know what you are talking about, and seem to be a very knowledgeable individual. Good to have you @

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

OK, got some more info, not really a MC info, but is some "clutch" info, and really along the lines of "useful info" to have @.


OK, customer brings his car by yesterday, gonna do a Level 4 Monster install.

Get it yanked, and start putting everythng back together, and of course, measure everything out, and come up with...TA DA....

.202"

What to do right? Adding a shim behind teh slave, would have been the "logical" thing to do, but, in the search for more info to share, I decided against it and install it, as is, with the .202" clearance.

Now, clutch pedal BEFORE, with old clutch was a little bit "above" teh brake pedal. When I got this setup back in, after bleeding it, was/is @ brake pedal height, pretty much even.

Right away, I can tell, it's gonna rock! Able to put tranny in gear, 1st, 5th, reverse, 4th, all of them, with 1 finger. Hot knife through butter so to speak. Went to go drive it, shifted even better. No effort in going through the gears, pedal is releasing @ 1 1/2-2" off the floor, and has good range of motion/travel (in other words, pedal was not short, felt very good, but did have a bit less travel than the stocker)

Customer goes to drive it, and is happier than ****. Loves it...

OK, reason I put that up is because of the "more than average travel (.202") and WHY is it OK? Good question to be honest, and I don't know. I guess from what we have heard @ here, it is NOT supposed to work, but did and is actually one of the best shifting setups I have done to date. And ya wanna know the crazier thing? I have a setup (a Level 6 I did) has EVEN MORE clearance because of a Mcleod Bell and motor plate that we put on, and it was so far off, that I thought the slave would not even TOUCH the PP!!! It was @ .380", and guess what? I put it together without a shim as well, and THAT setup is the BEST shiting setup I have done so far.

So, go figure, right? The more clearance I have, the better these things are shifting/working, and in this case, should not even work, but does. And wanna hear soimething even stranger? On teh level 6, teh pedal releases HIGH!!!! I mean, HIGH, like WAY at teh top of teh travel. Now, the math says, that with that much clearance, I should have to push in teh pedal ALL THE WAY to the floor, for it to even start to disengage teh PP...so, why does it start to disengage, as soon as I put my foot on the pedal? That is COMPLETELY backwards, to the point you would think I was adding them wrong (trust me, I went over this a 1000 times, and I am not, and even started that thread, and showed pitcures of it)

So, I guess what I am saying is, that each and every setup is gonna be different, and you just don't know what to expect because of teh manufacturing differences in teh MC's and slaves/TOB's and clutch stack heights.

Or, in other words, if you have a problem, EVERYTHING now needs to be looked at to REALLY figure out what it might be with YOUR setup....

OK guys, fire away...

DeanJ

iTrader: (6)

This is why it is so hard to fix/diagnose problems over the net or phone.
Thanks for endorsement Gen414. I am fairly new here. I signed up when I decided to put a LS6 into my 3rd gen camaro. But I have been in the racing industry for over 25 yrs. Damn I just felt old, LOL Later Dean.

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Agreed, as I am one to normally ask alot of questions, that some may seem ridiculous, but to try and get it right, you need all teh info you can gather, and still a shot in teh dark most times at that point...

25 years racing huh? Well, must be @ my age then We might be old, but still young at heart.....

DeanJ

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, my mind thinks I'm still 20, but my body sometimes put it in its place. Chassis/fab work takes its toll on the ole bones LOL. Later, Dean

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Yeah, a LONG time ago, when I turned 30 (pushing 40 now), I told myself I had just turned 16, and that was a mistake

Now, I just kind of try and ignore teh sore backs and creaking knee's and deaf ears. I will say this, about being partially deaf (which I am, both ears) it helps out when the wife is asking you to do something..."You asked me to do what? Oh babe, Im sorry, just didn't hear ya"


Anyways, good to have ya around...

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

That's a very interesting post.

What about the various clutch geometries ?

Just as an example:
Suppose you have two different brands of single disc stage I clutches.
You setup the stack height and throws exactly the same for both clutches.

After everything is put together, bled properly... you get one clutch that shifts well and one that does not.

Well, what was done wrong during the assembly ? nothing actually...
The required travel for one clutch vs the other is different.
One required the slave cylinder about 3/4" of travel vs 1" of travel... to disengage properly.

One clutch might operate better with 1/8" gap or less ... while the
other clutch might operate better with more than an 1/8" gap, more
like 3/16" or 1/4".

Why would this be ? Maybe because of the angle, length and finger designs of the various pressure plates. This would change the leverage and distance thus effecting the travel required to properly engage and disengage the two clutches in this example.

We haven't even added all the clutch different manufactures and designs in the mix. This makes it even more diffcult to have a rule of thumb.

If we did five F-bodies with new clutchs of the same brand and stage, new slave cylinders, new master cylinders all of the exact same dimensions and stack height... would a rule of thumb be possible ? would they all work the same ?







.









.

rabiddog

iTrader: (1)

I hae a feeling that if you line 5 cars up you will have better luck for them all to be the same setup if you use different brands!!!

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Let me tell you what, you are absolutely right, both of you. I have done many swaps now, and I can tell that some jsut shift better than others, and really, for illogical reasons.


And like I said above, with .202 and .380, on 2 cars I did, there is NO reason for (especially teh .380") to even shift AT ALL, much less to shift as good as it did. Go figure.

What I can tell you is that on Monster Clutches, they are designed to dis-engage @ .250" of travel, and @ .400" you can damage teh PP, by over extending teh fingers.

Now, I am not sure on say (lets use for example) Spec clutches, and what THEY are designed to dis-engage at> Maybe they are designed for more travel in mind?


I have a question, that I do not know the answer to, and maybe someone out there does...does anyone know how teh slave knows when to stop it's travel? Reason I say that is, the slave has a travel of roughly .880"-.900" of travel (2 slaves I have measured, from completely bottom out, to fully extended) and if a Monster is designed to release @ only .250 of travel, what is to keep teh slave from overextending the PP?

Maybe the guys @ Tick or Jeremy (Spec01) can chim in and let me (us) know.


Or, anyone else know?

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Monster clutches are most likely the most consistent aftermarket clutches available. They went through great lengths in thier design and engineering. Plus they seem to have excellent quality control in thier manufacturing.

GENE414, I'm a little confused, are you talking about .250 of actual travel or freeplay ?



.

rabiddog

iTrader: (1)

This would be some great info and could possibly use it right now if someone has an answer.

Jonathan@Tick

iTrader: (5)

The reason your two examples shift good without shims is because they need less than the .900" minus Xclearance" that you're measuring to dissengage fully. The spring under the tob eliminates the clearance on ALL setups. The only reason to ever shim is to increase the range of travel of the slave just so you don't over extend it (not the pp). For example, you could take the same clutch without a shim that has .300" clearance and drive it to see how it feels. Pull the tranny and install a .150" shim and I gaurantee the clutch would release/engage at the same points in relation to the pedals travel. The spring eliminates the clearance. Now if you shimmed it .350" and created negative clearance or "preload" the engagement point would be higher in relation to the pedal....but the clutch would probably start slipping prematurely.

With all that said lets say you have a clutch that needs to move the tob .600" to fully dissengage (probably not a monster based on your findings). If you only have .900" to work with on the slave to start with, and ideally you'd want .125" clearance in order to be sure that you're never preloading the pp your range of motion at the tob is now reduced to .775". If you had over .300" clearance, the clutch would never be fully dissengaged before the slave met its limit. This is all just theory, and every clutch/pp combo will be different. I'm not sure how much the stock master or our master at full stroke can move the tob , but it would be easy to set it up and see. Obviously, if our master is capable of moving the tob more distance that the available range of the slave after clearance is subtracted then it could over extend the slave/tob. For this reason, we ask everyone to check clearance and keep it around 1/8" (.125"). The more clearance you have, the less range of motion you have for the slave/tob.

As for over-extinding a pressure plate, you'll probably never over-extend one with a factory master. If that was possible, the clutch company would need to redesign the pp to prevent this from happening. Otherwise they'd be getting a bunch of angry calls lol. With our cylinder it is possible however. This is where common sense and following the directions about how to adjust the master comes into play.

Jonathan@Tick

iTrader: (5)

FWIW, all the monster clutches I've installed engage right at the top of the pedals travel. Based on this, the factory master is probably up to the task of completing a full release. Shim doesn't matter regardless, because that big spring is gonna firmly press the tob against the pp at all times eliminating clearance. No matter how much clearance you have when the tob is bottomed, there is none under normal conditions with everything installed. Therefore, as soon as the pedal inside the car moves, the tob moves the pp. Free play never changes like it would on a cable or linkage setup that would require regular adjustment. As the clutch wears, that clearance you measured before gets less and less (thus the reason you want 1/8" or so to begin with). By having that spring under the tob, GM basically made the "free play" self adjusting. It always maintains contact with the pp fingers. Mustangs had a self adjusting plastic qaudrant on the pedal assembly to do the same thing for their cable setups. They often broke however so someone invented the billet quadrant and "firewall adjuster".

I hope that atleast clears up the shim questions and why "we" prefer that everyone keeps a close eye on their clearance especially when using our master. Shimming really doesn't even play a role in how or where a clutch dissengages unless the shim is used to create "preload" or the slave has became maxed out before the clutch achieves full release (due to too much clearance).

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Jonathon,

I'm glad you've chimed in here. That's some interesting information you've posted here. It's taken me a minute to wrap my mind around some of those concepts.

I have some crazy questions ... Sorry if these questions seem redundant.

Is it possible for the hydraulics to build up enough pressure to cause a slave cylinder to move out slightly on it's own and stay there without any peddle engagement ?

The reason I ask this question is because...

A while back I had an aftermarket clutch that required a shim. It worked great for about 1000 miles and then it started to slip. I can almost bet that I could have pulled the tranny, removed the shim and it would have functioned without slipping anymore. Other guys have done this with success.
To this day the cause of that is still a mystery to me.
By the way ... that was before the Tick m/c was on the market for us.


So later I installed my LS7 clutch and it shifted notchy with a low peddle.
Before installing the tranny, I measured 3/16 of an inch clearance basically following the information in your clutch sticky. I decided to try a Tick m/c ... It solved my problem with the notchy shifting and low peddle, it's been 6 months and about 4K. It shifts better than it ever has.

What was the actual reason it solved my shifting woes? Did it need to push on the pressure plate more ? If I would have shimmed it out 1/8" would it have given me the slave travel I needed to disengage properly using the stock hydraulics ?

The LS7 clutch is not supossed to use a shim. The LS7 clutch seems to work fine from the factory so I can't see why you can't just bolt on and go.




.

Jonathan@Tick

iTrader: (5)

I doubt the hydraulic system could ever create any pressure on its own without pressing the pedal. Even if it did I doubt it could overcome the pressure plates pressure. Did you measure your clearance on that old clutch that started to slip? The only way removing the shim would have prevented the slipping condition is if the shim actually eliminated all the clearance and actually preloaded the tob against the pp. Basically that situation would be like riding around with your foot pressing the clutch pedal slightly; like a head-start with clutch dissengagement before you even move the pedal.

The reason our cylinder solved your shifting woes is simple. As I stated earlier, im not sure how much the factory master is capable of moving the tob itself. But lets just say for example it needed to move .500" for a full diss-engagement but the factory master was only moving it .450". You install our cylinder and adjust it to the point where if flows just enough fluid to move it that reqiured .500". You now have a full release. If you had installed a shim however, you wouldn't have gained anything unless you installed a shim that was thicker than 3/16" which would have preloaded the pp. Otherwise, with any gap at all (say you installed a .150" thick shim making your total clearance .0375") you're tob will still be in contact with the pp because that spring would close up the .037 clearance you have. Pedal movement would translate into immediate pp movement just the same as it did before with 3/16" clearance. The gap or clearance that we ask people to measure has nothing to do with free play or pedal movement...it wont change the engagement point. The only thing shimming one with too much clearance if for is to give you the most possible travel of the slave itself under all situations without preloading. The master will control how much the slave moves. If you use up half the range of motion of the slave with clearance then you've only got half the stroke of the slave to work with before its maxed out. I've never seen or heard of one reaching its limit and pushing a seal or fluid out but I guess it may be possible depending on a combination of clearance and fluid volume moved by our cylinder. To make things simple, clearance should always be checked and set to around 1/8"-3/16" so that the slave has the most travel possible however theres enough clearance so as not to worry about preloading (bottoming out the tob/slave) as the clutch disk/flywheel/pp wear. The gap will close up with wear, thus the thinking behind the spring in the first place...it constantly self adjusts the free-play out of the system while theres still a clearance between the tob and base of the slave.

Jonathan@Tick

iTrader: (5)

Hopefully that helps clear a few things up for you guys....and if anything I've said isn't accurate then feel free to correct me. I'm no engineer, just a mechanic that uses a little common sense thinking to figure things out lol. Basically we came up with our master kits because I got tired of dealing with clutches that wouldn't release properly. Monster isn't one of those...but every clutch can still benefit from a less restrictive fluid flow and truely dialed in dissengagement. In most cases, our cylinder offers more release with less pedal travel which can only improve shifting under all circumstances. If nothing else, not having to push the pedal as far is a benefit. The trade off is a little more pedal effort, but for most the benefits of being able to shift their car like never before far outwieghts that extra effort.

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Thankyou for answering my questions.

No I never did measure for clearance on the older aftermarket clutch.
I honestly assumed the shim was needed as it came with the kit.
I never made that mistake again nor will I ever.

I'm glad I asked those question because it makes a lot more sense to
me now. I have to admit that I misunderstood the reasons for measuring and why shims are used.

Wow these are some great explanations.

Jonathon,
Just to let you know, I have alot more adjustment capability on my Tick m/c.










.

Jonathan@Tick

iTrader: (5)

No problem. I wish I had more time to post on topics like this... Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying your Tick master.