Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Ok guys, more tech/info for you. This is a little off of my other thread going on, so figured I would start another one.

Ok, I think all of you guys now know I have been an advocate of teh stock MC, for the sake of trying to help out us guys that may not be able to step into teh TICK MC. I even went as far and did our own testing with the Level 6 Monster and Stock MC, right here:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...-its-done.html


NOW, I have new and useful info for you guys, so read on.


Ok, customer has a problem with his clutch. Tell him to bring it by, he does. Take a look, bleed it. No change. Tells me MC is original one, 7+ years old.
So, tell him to go home, buy a new MC from parts house. He does, installs it, bleeds it, tells me it is WORSE than before.
Hmmmm, scratch my head. I drive out to his place, yank tranny. Measure eveything (he had done install himself). everything looks pretty good, a bit tight on clearance, but still OK. I find a couple other odds and ends, but nothing to make me think, OK, this is it.
Well, after bench testing EVERYTHING he had (except the new MC which was still on car) I find that his bleeder line he had installed (NO, not TICK's, or our's) had a source of a leak which I did not catch the first time he brought to my shop.
So, like, BINGO, that's GOT to be it. So, we try new bleeder on it, (still have NEW MC in car) get everything back together, and immediately I notice that pedal sits lower than brake pedal. Bleed and bleed, and we have a nice firm pedal, but NO travel really, and sits pretty low. Go drive it, and NADA, won't go into gear hardly, so of course, no speed shifting at all.

Come back, start scratching my head again, and was like...wait a minute, didnt you say AFTER you installed NEW MC, that it got WORSE??? He says, yes.
So, we measure his old MC from the tip of teh rod, to the entrance of the rod into teh MC. Gues what? Teh NEW MC was @ .060 SHORTER than the old MC. Now, you are problay thinking...SO, .060 big deal. well, let me tell you what. We swapped it out, clutch pedal was ABOVE brake pedal, good travel...bled it, and BADA BING BADA BOOM, shifts like butter!!!

OK, my point there was, JUST because you buy a new MC, does NOT mean it will work, or you can rule it out, as I am finding manufacturing differences in slaves (other thread shows that) and now longer/shorter MC's!!!


So, you may be wondering why the title of my thread now....TICK MC and stock MC, ok, let me get there.

I can NOW say that without a doubt, if you want the most out of your setup, you need the TICK MC. Today is proof enough of that for me. jsut being able to adjust pedal height would have fixed problem (which of course TICK MC allows) PLUS you get the added benefit of teh extra volume/pressure of the TICK MC over teh stocker.

Now, yes, I was able to make a stock MC work, but did have to go through some pains to get there. TICK MC would have been a install and go and car would have been on road some time ago.

I had started that thread above to squash a rumor that you HAD to run the TICK if you bought a Monster Clutch. I believe I squashed that rumor with video/track results.

I started THIS thread to educate members on while it MAY seem that I am "crawfishing" on my original stance, that is NOT the case at all. Just stating that IF you are having problems with a low pedal or disengagement issue, and you are out of options (even bought a new MC like in this case) or you want to squeeze out that extra performance of your clutch, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that a TICK adj MC might be the fix. And no, TICK and I have not joined forces I am just simply a company that is as honest as it gets, and when a company has something for us members that will benefit us (even coming from a "competitor") I will be the first to say so, and put it out in the open for all to see/read.



ALSO:
Bleeding tip....

When we got old MC back on, it did NOT want to bleed....NO pedal at all. So, I KNEW there was a big air bubble trapped. So, what to do right? well, piece of cake. Close your bleeder, take off your MC reservoir cap and boot, and push pedal down. You should start getting some rather large bubbles, keep pumping until most bubbles are gone (especially teh bigger one's). After you do that, THEN you can go back to normal bleeding to get remaining air out of system.

Good luck guys....

blu byu EH

iTrader: (25)

Here is a question for ya. If the Tick MC flows more fluid and the stock slave can only do so much how can the stock slave keep up with the Tick MC?

Thanks

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Good question. However, it is not so much teh SLAVE as being deficient, as it is teh MC. The stock slave does a good job of doing "it's job" but when teh the stock MC can not provide enough fluid pressure/volume (repeated shifts for example) is when you have problems, missed shifts, stuck pedal to floor, etc..

By providing enough fluid to teh slave from teh TICK MC (or even when you find a GOOD stock MC, like teh one on FunFormula's car), you are alllowing the hydro's to keep up.

In other words, teh slave is more than adequate, and does a pretty good job, as it is the stock MC that has teh inherent problems, and do not believe that the TICK MC will "overpower" the slave. Now, at least I have not heard of that, except in a case where it was adjusted in-correctly and over extended teh slave.

So, when adj. correctly, the TICK MC is not gonna harm the slave...

Make sense?

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

THIS WILL BE A TWO PART POST.

FIRST PART.

My experience and thoughts regarding the Tick m/c

I had installed an LS7 clutch kit, brand new GM pre-bled master cylinder, new slave cylinder and throwout bearing. Before the installation I made the appropriate measurements and came up with 3/16" freeplay. 1/4" is normally the maximum in which a shim is required.

According to RAM's clutches diagram --> http://www.ramclutches.com/Tech/Tech...%20Bearing.jpg

So after the clutch install I had the low clutch peddle syndrom with knotchy shifting. It worked but was unacceptable. So I than proceeded to bleed and bleed and bleed with no success.

At this point I figured what the hell !? I was seeing all these positive post regarding the Tick m/c. I was sceptical but decided to give it a try.
The Tick m/c bench bled very easy and looked like a nice piece. The install was no harder or easier than installing a OEM master cylinder. I did have to slightly grind the the heim-joint ( it was slightly to wide ) in order for the little retaining clip to fit on my clutch peddle tab. Once I had the Tick installed and adjusted, I was pleasantly surprised how well it worked. It actually solved my problems. It's been about 4K since I installed it. My shifting is better then it has every been.


Is the Tick worth $300 ? It was to me. It's ultimately up to you to decide if it's worth it to you. Two things about the Tick m/c that make it a viable master cylinder. 1.) It pushes alot more fluid 2.) It's adjustable !!!


SECOND PART.


The link below ... in my opinion has to be one the best clutch post ever on LS1TECH or any other LSX related forum. Courtesy of GEN414.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...good-tech.html

The link above might very well be the reasons why there has been so many clutch install problems with our cars. Apparently there are dimensional differences with the lengths and depths regarding the master and slave cylinders. They are not created equal !

What's this have to do with the Tick m/c ? With the adjustablilty that the Tick m/c offers, you can adjust for these various inconsistancies, along with the ability to push more hydraulic fluid. It's funny how just about every other car on the market, with a manual transmission, comes equipped OEM with an adjustable clutch peddle. Why not the F-body, GTO and Vette ?

Does everyone need to spend $300 for a Tick m/c ? I'm not trying to be a Tick spokesman but I do think the Tick m/c is a great product and can solve alot of problems. We'll see how long it will last before it needs to be rebuilt or replaced because the Tick m/c hasn't been out that long.

Another option is to double check and measure your GM hydraulics for inconsistancies. But what's the reference point ???





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blu byu EH

iTrader: (25)

Thanks for your feedback!

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Very good info, and thanks for sharing.

Let's see...what's the reference point? That is a good one also, and clearly have no idea. Only thing I can say is I will keep measuring them, and maybe get a baseline AVERAGE

I have never been one to take things for face value, and the more research I do, and find all teh inconsistencies in teh parts, it's no wonder there are JUST SO MANY problems when people do an install, and then can't shift or speed shift, or can't get into gear, and want to blame the CLUTCH.

And that was what I was leaning to when I was dealing with the above mentioned customers car. I had checked and double and triple checked EVERYTHING (or so I had thought) and was like, well, if we get it back together, and still no dice, it HAS to be the PP. So, when we got it back together, and before I even drove it, saw teh pedal, I KNEW something was funny. Sure enough, no dice. (no need in going into rest of story, as it obviously is above)

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

At least we now have an idea, that all these inconsistencies are most likely, the reasons why there are so many clutch install problems. That's a big progressive step.



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ChevyChad

iTrader: (50)

Can't wait to get my Tick MC. Should be here this week hopefully. If that doesnt fix my problem, I'm gonna be so distraught!

PewterScreaminMach

iTrader: (7)

Since this is strictly an informational thread and a main point in the original post was that an adjustable master cylinder would have solved the issue for the car in question, it should be noted that RAM makes an adjustable master cylinder (basically an OEM MC with adjustable rod welded on) for about $160.

Granted, it will not solve your fluid volume issue if that is indeed your problem, but if the only issue is that the rod length is too short or needs to be adjusted, then the RAM is roughly half the cost of the Tick unit and could save those on a budget quite a bit of money.

I'm not recommending either as they both seem like quality products (and I currently own both); I just wanted to get as much info out there as possible for those reading this thread and dealing with the non-stop issues us M6 guys seem to run into.

Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

ok so tic is arleady on my list. is the New GM SC the best way to go. or is it worth the money for an aftermarket one?

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

I hear you, I know how that is, I've been there.
I hope it fixes your problem.





A master with a longer rod solved the problem in GEN414's thread.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...good-tech.html

However measurements were taken for the slave clearances too.

Under the circumstances with that particular situation, it seems like a Ram m/c would have solved the problem.



Are you having problems with shifting, if not, why spend the money.


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PewterScreaminMach

iTrader: (7)

He says right in that quote that being able to adjust the pedal height would have fixed the problem. In other words, ANY adjustable master would have fixed the problem (seeing as how they all allow you to adjust the rod longer and shorter), not just the Tick or any particular master. I don't really understand why you're bolding "longer rod" like you're correcting me. The purpose of the adjustable master is to lengthen or shorten the rod depending on what you need. My post is 100% accurate.

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

No PewterScreaminMach is was not trying to correct or be-little you in any way. I'm an advocate of using an adjustable m/c ( especially the Tick ) ... after all I have one.

My intensions here LS1Tech are always good and I try to do my best to help and contribute to our community. I try my best to helpout with solutions rather than create problems.

I think what I'm trying to do is to avoid automatically recommending someone go out and spend $150 to $300 on a part that might not be needed, that's all.





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Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Very good point, thanks for teh info, and that is correct. Also, there is a thread somewhere, that some have even made teh STOCK MC adjustable. Now, not sure if that would be worth it if you went out and bought a NEW stock MC and did teh work to make it adjustable. I think money vs time would be about equal with stock vs Ram in that case. Now, if trying to convert your OLD mc to adjustable status, than that could save you some money there as well.

Now, I will say that after driving a customers car with a TICK MC, that I really liked it. I just FELT like it had a "good feel" to it. Ya know? Not saying it ACTUALLY made a difference (maybe it did, maybe it didn't, still have no hardcore proof on that yet), but "seat of pants" I liked it.

Have not driven the teh RAM setup, or a stock adjustable MC....but now that we are going there, it seems that I just may do all 3 for the sake of doing a "shootout"



I do not believe so, no. From the testing I have done, it seems that they are all teh same (SC's) and would liekly see no benefit in using teh GM unit. Again, NO hardcore data on that either, yet.

mondols1

iTrader: (2)

i have the clutch stuck to the floorboard issue when i hit it from a deadstop. the clutch hits the deck after i shift to 2nd so i cant shift to 3rd. i can usually work my foot under the pedal from the side and pull it up and it will start working again. my next thought was to do the drill mod but then i saw in the latest gmhightech mag that there is a updated version of the mc pn12570277that is working out to be a better alternative to the drill mod. i'm not sure about it, should i just go with the tick?

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

All a matter of preference really. You may have a faulty MC or slave..how old is your setup (MC and slave)?

It is like this:

I have made teh stock MC work just fine with all different clutches, from Level 6 Monster's down to teh stock clutch and in between.

I have yet to test the TICK or RAM @ track to determine one way or the other if one will work better than teh other, but one would THINK that they would, and as I mentioned above, I did like teh way the Tick "felt".


So, first you need to diagnose your PROBLEM, as your pedal should not stick to teh floor, unless you have a PROBLEM, not just because you are using teh stock MC...that will not happen if MC and slave are in working order.

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

It sounds like a hydraulic issue, sometimes low or old hydraulic fluid can provide the symptoms you are describing.

Otherwise it's time to go see Gen414 since you guys are practically neighbors. ( BOO-YAH! )


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rabiddog

iTrader: (1)

Thats how mine started. sounds like the M/C. I would change it out first before going with the slave.

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Oh boy, that's how mine started also, after that one thing led to another.

mondols1

iTrader: (2)

gen414, i might be giving you a call in the near future. my sticker expired in october so 1st thing this weekend im going to weld a couple of cats onto my ory so i can try to get this thing inspected. once i can get that done ill get to work on my clutch issue.