Gen414

iTrader: (38)

OK guys, I think most of you know me by now, and I try and help out the best that I can. Even with the thread that TICK started, and wrote on how to measure for a shim, with some diagrams (a GREAT read by the way, tick did a very good job on that), it seems I still get quite a few questions from you guys that can not "visualize" it. Well, what I did was decided to add onto it in a little different way. I took some actual pics of it, to try and give you a better idea on it (visually).
Now, I also took a bellhousing, and cut a "window" in it, so you could see (and I can bench test) a clutch setup, BEFORE it ever goes into a car. Sure, not all variables will be duplicated with this (motor will not be running for example) But, I have installed a crank in a block, TQ'd crank down to get the most accurate reading possible, installed a tranny, TQ clutch/PP to proper specs, etc...
I also took 2 different readings (just to start) on 2 different slave cylinders, but SAME tranny to show how they are all NOT the same (we got 2 different measurements).
I started out with a stock clutch, and I have 2 more Monster clutches I am gonna put up, and take measurements, as well as check for throw, later on.

Now, I also built my own "clutch pedal" that you will see, again, so I can duplicate actual clutch engagement/disengagment. I will admit, my "clutch pedal" is a little on the "thrown together" side, but, it gets teh job done, and was not going for visual results, but I was going for function, and I think I got that. So, here goes guys, I hope this helps out to those that are still a little confused, so, here you go guys, enjoy....(any and all comments are welcome)

1st pic: Slave installed, WITHOUT spring, so we can measure:




2nd picture, getting measurement, from face of tranny, to face of TOB:




Here is another TOB, but same tranny, and you can see, we came up with 2 different measurements:





Clutch installed, using inputshaft as "alignment tool"





Bellhousing, with "window" cut into it, to get a better visual idea of what is going on with a clutch:





Here is measuring from teh face of bellhousing (where the acutal tranny face will meet) to teh tips of the fingers of the PP (make sure PP is TQ down)




Side shot:




Now, here is my "clutch pedal"..you can laugh if you want, but again, going for function over visual. With this setup, I can now check clutch engagement and disengagement on the workbench before i ever install it in car. Since tranny will already be out, I can use my customers tranny (one in pics is teh shop core), so again, to get results as close as possible. Is all this necessary? No. I did it more for you guys then anything, to answer some questions that seem to be on going. Now that I have this setup, will I use it on future clutch installs? Sure. Will only take a few extra minutes of my time, and we can double check everything before it is in teh car. Thanks guys

Fun-Formula98

iTrader: (3)

Great job man!

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Thanks (and thanks for teh bellhousing AND the stock clutch)

Kurtomac

iTrader: (5)

Fantastic writeup!

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Thanks! There will be more to come. I am trying to come up with a way, that I can measure the actual throw on teh slave/PP, but, I will get there in time. Gonna do that, so I can check throw on a stock MC (and try different MC to see if we get different measurements) along with adjustable MC's. Also, thinking of coming up with a way to see if we can tap into the setup and check pressure of the hydraulic fluid.

Also, with some help from a certain customer, I am gonna get video up of how to bleed our setups, kind of like an instructional video of sorts, both with the regular bleeder, and our speed bleeder...

ChevyChad

iTrader: (50)

Awesome pics! Thanks for the clarification! Glad you are taking the time to help out the whole of LS1tech community here! kudos

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

This should be made into a Sticky !




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Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Oh, you bet guys. My pleasure to help out, seriously. I know that there are alot of our Fbodies out there, and it seems like this comes up on more than few times a day, so, jsut thought, hey, why not. I spend so much time answering the questions/threads/posts/pm/emails, that I spend so much time doing that, if I took some time, and built something like this, I would have LESS time in that, AND would be more descriptive to boot.

Again, more info/pics coming (and video)


It seems that there are enough threads/questions and such on this topic, that it wouldn't be a bad idea????

SWeiser31

iTrader: (9)

This will be very helpful for my monster install I'm doing very soon. Thanks, and thanks again for all the help you've given me through PM's. Advice through an experienced source is the best kind.

TRANS-DAD

iTrader: (1)

Wow!! great write up!!.......even if I don't plan on doin my clutch change myself I now have a better understanding of the whole F-body hydraulics!!
That just crazy how a diff. thro out bearing can be .030 out!!!

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

You bet, our pleasure helping out @ here. If in need of anything else, we are only a phone call/pm/email away!

If you think THAT is something, FunFormula's slave/TOB measured out @ 1.98(or something similar if I remember correctly) So, what .125 difference in that one and the 2.105 slave....yeah, go figure. Even though I think the 1.98 was a fluke deal as MOST I have measured end up in the 2.050-2.100 range though

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

OK, I setup a Monster Clutch on my test mule...









I have found out some interesting info, today I am gonna go over teh results to verify what I have found out...

Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

ok so after we have those two numbers? then what?

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

looks good, learn something new

Gen414

iTrader: (38)

Oh, sorry....


You subtract the numbers to come up with possible "clearance" issue's, and or if in need of a shim...

Like:

We can call PP fingers to face of bell, measurement "A" (so as not to confuse, I took that "label" from TICK's thread)
And from face of TOB to face of tranny, measurement "B".


So, let's take the very first picture of TOB to face of tranny ("B") of 2.079"

Then you take "A" (PP fingers/bellhousing), and that number SHOULD be greater than "B", and in this case, even though you can not see it was 2.200"

So, 2.200 "A"
-2.079 "B:
is equal to: .121

Now, you want that number to be @ 1/8" (.125") or LESS than that for proper clearance.

If you have say, .250 (or pick a number GREATER than .125) you need to add a shim to get proper "throw" on teh slave to fully disengage the PP. Example:

2.350 "A" (PP fingers/face of bell)
2.079 "B" (TOB/face of tranny)
is equal to: .271". If you came up with that, you would need to add a shim of @ .150 to get back down to the requred @ .125" (.150 + .125 = .270")


Now, if "B" is GREATER than "A", then PP will always be partially disengaged, and lead to clutch slippage/premature wear, etc...

Now, say you came up with:

2.000 "A" (PP fingers/face of bell)
2.079 "B" (TOB/face of tranny)

You come up with B as greater than A, and in doing so, TOB will ALWAYS being disengaging PP, and lead to clutch slip/premature wear.

That make sense? or did I confuse more???

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Moderaters can you please make this thread into a clutch sticky ?
We need it... it might save alot of bandwith.

Below is an image that I printed from another clutch sticky up as reference.
http://www.ramclutches.com/Tech/Tech...%20Bearing.jpg


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Gen414

iTrader: (38)

I was reading that, and saw their "dimensions", and it seems they are calling for more clearance then what we are??? Hmmm, interesting.

I know the full travel on a slave, from fully seated, to fully extended is @ .850-.900" (I have measured quite a few now). And if they (link provided above) are shooting for a maximum of @ .250", does not leave much room for error. Would think at that distance, the slave would not disengage PP completely. Hmmmmmm

PewterScreaminMach

iTrader: (7)

Man, I would love to mess around with that thing for a few hours. Too bad you're so far away!

bearcatt

iTrader: (41)

Derek they were just talking about freeplay in that diagram.
When I measured mine, I had 3/16 of an inch gap or freeplay with an LS7 clutch.

Wow that's over 3/4 of an inch... and all the way up to... close to an inch of travel... that you're talking about !

Eventhough I figured out a system that works for me on my F-body, I've never owned a car that has such a picky clutch/hydraulic system. I feel bad to see so many post everyday regarding clutch install issues.

You know ...
I have two small trucks with manual transmissions and almost every car or truck that I've owned had a manual transmission. I would basically just pull the tranny, replace and/or bleed the hydraulics, reinstall the tranny and go.

With the above said, not many cars have the hydraulics wrapped around the input shaft either. ( I can't see how that should matter, but ???)

Some of the other aftermarket clutches requiring a shim has baffled me since getting into 4th Gen F-bodies. What's the reason to change the geometry ?

Even the LS7 clutch has had epidemic problems with the low peddle syndrom.
( me included until I installed a Tick m/c ) that's been over 4000 miles ago.

This is great information that you have posted here, I was just trying to help with a link from another sticky.



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Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

ok so if B is Larger then A. do i need a shim for the bell housing on either the trany of motor side?