nwilson44

Well Guys I had an ordeal at the dealership. I'll explain briefly.

I paid to have a trans service done on my T-56. They filled it with the wrong fluid, and subsequent consequences followed. Car would pop out of 3rd gear, when It NEVER did it once before.

After some bickering and some negotiating they subsidized approx 50% of the cost. Still cost me over $1300!

Now The car is doing the same thing inside of GM's 1 year/ 10k mile warranty. I was told by the owner of the dealer that they verbally told me "that they were no longer working on the vehicle because it is modified but would refer me to a shop (that their ex master mechanic owns now) to fix it." I said that was fine but does that also include the warranty on the work that was done. He told me it did.

I dont want to be out of all that money. Especially since when they fixed it, they did not ask if I wanted to do some other preventative things while they were in there. They just took my car, changed a couple of things, and handed me a bill.

Need some advice. What can I do at this point? The documentation states that there is a warranty and GM has a parts and labor warranty. How arrogant of a stance is it to say that you do not stand behind your work, as if it is perfect when it left, and no mistakes were made....

Last but not least my transmission case is leaking.

nwilson44

Side note: The car was modified when they originally fixed it and took my money...

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Critical information is missing...

What kind of "service did they provide?" Did you have them just change the fluid? Did you have them drop the transmission?


What did they put in it? I wouldn't think this would cause your problem, particularly if the fluid situation was corrected quickly.

nwilson44

So yeah I had them replace the Slave cylinder, master cylinder, and I was recommended a fluid exchange. I do not remember exactly what fluid was placed in it, but I do remember the bottle of the fluid that they put in reading "NOT FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS OR POWER STEERING SYSTEMS". I also spoke to Tremec about it and was told about how the fluid would, over time, make the paper blocker rings less effective by essentially glazing the friction material. (not to mention the trans has a bright orange tag stating which fluid to use)

It went unnoticed for a while. When the car developed symptoms I was skeptical since it is a daily driver and I never miss or mess up shifts (a lot of that is attributable to MGW). So I went back and pulled the part number of the fluid and found, in plain English, my findings above.

So now after the work that was done, my transmission case is leaking and my 3rd gear is still messed up. (didn't drive the car much after the repair as my engine got hydrolocked and It took me 6+ months to save for a new one)

BALLSS

are you saying replacing the hydraulics & tranny fluid cost you $1300 after a 50% invoice adjustment?

or did you have "internal" tranny work done...and if so what?

On the fluid, if it was changed within a few thousand miles, or even longer, it would not have done any damage. since you have the part # of what fluid they did initially put in, what was it?

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Maybe they dropped the transmission the floor while they were doing the work, or something like that?

All the time that elapsed makes your situation difficult. You are lucky to get them to go in to this 50/50 with you. Had you gone back in a few weeks after the work and claimed that they screwed up the shifting, maybe you could have gotten more from them but...

they would have claimed that you are driving an old piece of **** and that it was ready to break, anyway. (I know because I've been in your shoes before - for shotty transmission work.)

How many miles do you have on the car?


This is obviously BS. Translation:
"We are unable to work on your vehicle because we can't make any money off of you. Plus, I'm missing my daily episode of The Price is Right because I'm standing here talking to you... We prefer to take advantage of little old ladies who come in here, pay us money, and drive off not knowing that we screwed up their car worse than when they came in for supposed service. We can make it seem like we are helping by sending you down the road to the slack guy we fired the other month. He will take you because he's desperate for work."

SoFla01SSLookinstok

I hate to hear stuff like this. Dealerships used to be the best. Not the cheapest lol. Now it seems I hear more & more about shitty work.

Screw that. If there was a problem with your car being modded, to them, they should have never taken your work in the first place. Replacing a clutch master, slave, & fluid change is very minor work & has nothing to do with the rest of your vehicle. Should be very simple for a "good" GM tech.

I would call GM Corporate Office directly!

nwilson44

No I paid them approx $600 the first time around for the Master cylinder (no slave) changed and the transmission fluid changed. I'm sorry I miss spoke about the Slave, as they did not change it. My pedal just died one morning and I couldn't do anything with the car so I towed it. They told me I needed a Master Cylinder so it was changed. Also recommended a fluid change because my car had 160k on it. I don't have the Part number here at work its in my records somewhere but rest assured it wasn't DEX III that is strictly recommended by GM, AC Delco, and Tremec.

The Second visit was when I paid $1300. They replaced the whole 3rd gear assembly and everything regarding 3rd gear except the fork.

What was tough is that the car was doing it, and they told me to bring it back, however my engine got hydro locked before I had the opportunity. So it had to sit until I could afford the new engine.


As I said up there ^^^ I mis-spoke regarding the slave.

I drove the car, my dad drove the car, and my mechanic drove the car before doing this service and it drove fine. Bang the gears every once in awhile and it was good. No issues.

I get the car back and more or less of the same story. I drove it for a couple of months. Then 3rd started grinding under normal driving. Under normal driving it would also pop out of gear if it didn't grind and keep you from going in gear in the first place.

They tried that explanation about the car having miles on it and I told them straight up that, their rationalization was unacceptable on many different accounts:

1. They put the wrong fluid in, so any logic they offer thereafter is questionable
2. They put the wrong fluid in, so if they were experts on the side effects of the wrong fluid, why did they put it in?
3. The car drove perfect before the master gave up and I have 3 objective parties to verify
4. The tremec enginer went into detail about why DEX III is strictly reccomened and what the side effects of not using it is.
5. That the T-56 was used in all kinds of high powered, high end cars, and as a matter of fact the F body may be the cheapest car (of all time) to get the T56, so its extremely robust and isnt a POS.

I also provided a list of services that my car receives. To show that it may be old but everything on that car has been replaced and/or serviced. Just to prove the point that I take care of my stuff. Underneath the car looked brand new.

I wasn't unreasonable as I told them that the trans does have miles on it, however we are unable to objectively conclude the cause of failure. The only thing we knew objectively is that my trans was broke and the wrong fluid was in it for a while. Therefore we can deduce that the wrong fluid caused issues (even if we don't know exactly what) and anything else is unverifiable and irrelevant at that point in time.

Lastly, the tech took the car on a drive after he installed the master, and there were no recollection of any grinding or popping out of gear.

The car had around 164k or so when the master gave up and 168k when they tore the trans apart. has 176k now.

Aparently that tech retired. but i hear you lol

I got a text from the owner stating that the work they did, will not carry a warranty.

I was so pissed when they handed me the bill because there was no verifiable evidence that I was responsible for any of the damage, however I paid it to ease the situation. I did ask if the work would be covered and said that it was a requirement if I paid a dime. I was told that the work carried out by the service department was backed by GM's 12 moth / 12k warranty.



I completely agree. The whole underside of my car is red lol, its loud af, and has Long tubes and lopes out the a**. They knew it was modified. They didn't care util it was convenient to avoid accountability.

I did speak to a GM Rep and am currently having GM reach out to them to find out what the challenges are exactly.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

The unit had miles on it and just handling it normally and honestly could cause some of the pads internally to come off and cause this issue. The most unfortunate part about all this is that with the age of the unit, it probably should have had a full rebuild. In the end, you paid 33% of what a rebuild would cost and just got a band-aid that didn't work. (You said that they didn't change the fork - but I wonder if they changed the pads?)


The "Modified" thing is TOTAL BS. The dealer "modified" your car themselves when they put a non-approved fluid in it. This is particularly inexcusable for an "expert" dealer who has ready access to all of GM's technical documentation. That's supposedly one of the reasons why they can charge a premium... If keeping the car stock was so important, the would have put a proper stock GM fluid in it or - for sure - insisted that only those materials be used in their facility.

^ It would be nice to stick that back in their cigar and have them smoke on that, but given the miles on the car - I don't think you'll have the opportunity or leverage.

nwilson44

Your point is completely valid and objective. We all know that things don't last forever and that age will take a toll on mechanical items.

However, if you allow them to take that tact, you enter into an arena of subjectivity. We all know that age is a factor, but no one can measure or quantify that.

Which is why I immediately directed the conversation to things that were objectively quantifiable, because anything other than that is simply speculation. I simply did not entertain any of their speculation of failure because, it isn't helpful, not quantifiable, unverifiable, and not needed.

I quickly went back to what we knew to be true and could verify. Trans was broke, wrong fluid was in it. Car drove fine for the tech after he fixed the Master on the previous visit, and it drove fine for me for a while.

They are a piece of work and it is super tough keeping people on a line of thinking that strictly deals with objective, verifiable, quantifiable information. I told them we can sit here all day and think about the cause, or we can look at the information we have.



Similarly, when dealing with the situation now, they return to the argument based on subjectivity. "Modifications". They did not even provide a context in which someone can define their intention or meaning. They just simply attempted to dismiss the issue with an objection that is not clearly defined. Using the logic you stated, the car was modified after it rolled off the lot in 02'. First time someone put gas in it, it was modified. First time someone put fuel stabilizer in it, it was modified.

By presenting an argument of ambiguity, such as they did, with no available context to reason with, it is quite obvious that they are being evasive and unaccountable. An unacceptable course of action when you're trying to uphold integrity and you have a paying customer.


I will keep updates on the situation. I have already contacted the GM corporate office with the issue and I have sent an email stating that the issue will reach an acceptable outcome regardless of what is required to get it.

nwilson44

To further continue what you were saying regarding the partial rebuild.

One of the acceptable outcomes I presented is that my car gets fixed completely and conscientiously. Fluid coats everything in the trans and therefore, regardless of what is currently broken, wear items and items that commonly fail should be replaced. Lastly, the trans should be sealed so it does not leak.

Second outcome I gave was to simply refund the money.


I also want to clarify. Age is quantifiable by time, but not quantifiable as far as wear and condition is concerned. This is why I stated that using that argument, in this context, simply opens the door for subjective speculation.

BALLSS

Wow...the dealership charged $600 to replace MC and tranny fluid. Well they get what they get but for around $80 in parts/fluid they got a lot for labor

The "wrong" fluid (assume the newer DEX fluid) would not cause the shifting problems. Tremac used paper blocker rings back then in the T56 and synthetics, over time (read long time) broke down those paper blocker rings. IIRC around 1998 they switched to carbon blocker rings which were OK with synthetic fluids

Didn't replace the 3-4 shift fork to a steel one when they replaced "3rd gear assembly"...ouch. The stock soft metal 3-4 fork (they bend) is one of the most COMMON fixes/upgrades when servicing the T56. Sadly dealerships just follow FSM procedure and would have just put in a stock fork.

At the very least they need to fix the leak if it is under the 12 month warranty period. At that point they have to break the case apart to replace that gasket and put sealer on so all that labor would be on them....at that point they should replace the 3-4 shift fork which is likely causing your 3rd gear issues. The fork should have been replaced initially when they did 3rd gear

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Yea - because of this, I don't think you have any legal options to press the issue, here.

As the owner of a Pontiac, GM doesn't care about you, either. (Obviously. I love how they keep sending me Buick SPAM as a "former Pontiac owner.") So, as you continue your conversations, I suggest positioning yourself as a future GM buyer or a longtime GM buyer. GM will care about you buying another car from the corporation and staying under the umbrella.

The dealer won't care about this because they don't make any money off the cars. They want service customers, but its pretty obvious that they've lost you - so I would expect they just want you to go away quietly.


I think this is your best outcome. Get the money back and then take your car to a local transmission specialist for a full proper rebuild - ... it's time. In your area, you should be able to find many excellent options who truely know what they are doing inside of a T-56.

I would NOT let a dealer crack that unit open at all. <I could insert all sorts of derogatory analogies here, but want to start the weekend on happier thoughts.>

nwilson44

Yeah man, I am going to try and get the money back and close the case with them. Truly unbelievable how drawn out and ridiculous the situation is.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

You're assuming at least two things. Your statement is incorrect.

GM has internal documents advising not to use Dex-VI.

They also have a TSB specifying replacement of the shift fork when experiencing 3rs gear pop-out.

Based on your posts, they failed to do the job right.

nwilson44

I have the TSB regarding the damages as a product of the fluid they used. Do you have the TSB or know where to find it regarding the fork replacement?

BALLSS

???

we are assuming the Dealership put in Dex-V1 as the OP didn't specify other then it was the wrong fluid.

Using synthetics of any brand in a pre 1998 T56 won't immediately hurt it. IDK how long OP had it in the transmission before replacing it. The synthetic fluid breaks down the paper blocker rings. The fact the V1 fluid is thinner than Dex 3 could also make the shifting feel more "notchy"

Regarding the 3-4 shift fork...I stated it was the most common thing to replace regarding 3rd gear shifting problems and the fact the dealership did not replace it, to me, was wrong

Agree from OP's statements on what occurred the dealership did a crap job across the board. The wrong fluid, yes explained in TSB saying it should not be used in MANUAL transmissions originally spec for DEX 3 (instead use GM # 88861800), not replacing the 3-4 fork yet replacing the 3rd gear cluster and not sealing the trans case causing a leak scream crap work.

nwilson44

I believe it was Dex 6. On the bottle it said it wasn't a replacement for manual transmissions or power steering systems that require Dex 3. Also the trans has a big orange tag on it that says "DEX III ONLY!". So yeah. Now they don't want to warranty their work... Not sure how its going to go down but I am prepared to do whatever it takes to hold them accountable for this crap.

nwilson44

UPDATE: Got a follow up call from GM's "customer experience specialist" and she literally recited the dealership's representative on the fact that "the vehicle is modified". Once I told her that the vehicle was in the same state of "modification" she edited her first statement by saying that since the car was modified, it does not carry a warranty. I told her that I am sorry she got the same run around that I did, and that regardless of what was stated, in their minds at least, I have documentation and a recorded phone call stating that the work does indeed have a warranty. When The owner gave me the initial bill, I told him I would pay half of what he quoted me and allow him to write "no Warranty" on the bill. He declined and took off $200. I told him I will only pay what he asked for if the work retains a warranty. He obliged and assured me that the work had warranty, so i reluctantly paid him.


Needless to say, I am going to have to escalate this into a civil case. I think I have done my part in attempting to work out an outcome, both, before and after the fact. It will cost me more than I have in the repair but at this point it's personal with the lies and talking to me as if I am an idiot. Any GM documents anyone has regarding the situation would be appreciated but I will also look for them and collect them myself. I will keep updates coming.

Firebrian

If DEX VI was used, I'd doubt that would do anything with the paper lined blocker rings used on the 1998-2000 M6 F bodies. DEX VI has much lighter viscosity than DEX III (6 vs. 7 as I recall). So for extended use, DEX VI is probably not suitable for friction and stress lubrication on the gears. Should be ok for blocker rings though. It's the GL4/5 fluids frequently used in rear differentials and built transmissions that sometimes find their way into our cars and cause problems. Dailydriver frequently mentioned how the use of Royal Purple immediately caused his shifting to have problems. He immediately replaced it....problem solved. There are many manual trans fluids out there other than ATF DEX III that will work fine in our T56's. But Tremec will usually not recommend them. Pennzoil Synchromesh is one of them. I have a paper blocker ring T56 that's all stock and only DEX III will ever go into it as long as I own it. Not worth the risk to glaze over those synchronizer rings with a GL4/5 fluid. But, I would say that 90% of the owners that go from ATF to a manual trans fluid don't have any issues whether it's RP, Amsoil, Synchromeshes, etc.

The changing of man trans fluid is something the owner and dealership should never take lightly as the specs and requirements are all over the map. ATF DEX 6 should have similar friction modifier chemistry to ATF DEX 3, and that's what plays a role with the synchronizers. Some of the GL4/5 fluids will effectively fill the voids in the paper blockers so that they lose their "grip." On the other hand, ATF's are somewhat inadequate for lubricating the gears over the life of the vehicle (ie leads to greater wear and friction).