Line of Duty Determination
08-09-2007, 08:02 AM
#1
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton, VA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Line of Duty Determination ive seen a post in either this section or somewhere on this site where someone made a reference to a military reg that states the military cannot revoke our medical/dental benefits under any circumstance, but i cant find it now that i need it.
theres been alot of talk in my shop where NCOs are trying to scare the airmen into thinking that the military (or at least the AF) can revoke our medical benefits if we are at fault in an accident, or if the proper safety equipment was not worn.
for example: i just bought a bike, but im not licensed and i dont have my MSF or the commander's "approval." now, if i get in an accident on my bike, and it wasnt even my fault, apparently the military can revoke my medical benefits and i would have to pay all expenses out-of-pocket.
i just wanted to find that quote where it states that the military cant revoke those privileges. can anyone help me out?
theres been alot of talk in my shop where NCOs are trying to scare the airmen into thinking that the military (or at least the AF) can revoke our medical benefits if we are at fault in an accident, or if the proper safety equipment was not worn.
for example: i just bought a bike, but im not licensed and i dont have my MSF or the commander's "approval." now, if i get in an accident on my bike, and it wasnt even my fault, apparently the military can revoke my medical benefits and i would have to pay all expenses out-of-pocket.
i just wanted to find that quote where it states that the military cant revoke those privileges. can anyone help me out?
08-09-2007, 09:20 AM
#3
11 Second Club
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Wa.
Posts: 965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know in the navy, you have to go to a drivers school, and have all of your insurance and license in line, No matter if it was your fault or not, they will not pay for the bill on your injury's. And 9 times out 10 you will get punished for it.
I know in 2006 when I shattered my ankle in San Diego riding dirt bikes, they almost did not pay for my surgory, It was about the same time that they passed that law in the USN. But I was lucky and they payed for everything.
I had a buddy on the Vinson that was riding his dirt bike at night like a dumbass. And wrecked into a parked Uhaul trailer, broke his leg so bad that they ended up having to wack it off. He ended up having to pay for everything. He was in acoma for 3 months, and woke up without a leg, and then the news that the navy would not be paying for it. That would suck.
Lane
I know in 2006 when I shattered my ankle in San Diego riding dirt bikes, they almost did not pay for my surgory, It was about the same time that they passed that law in the USN. But I was lucky and they payed for everything.
I had a buddy on the Vinson that was riding his dirt bike at night like a dumbass. And wrecked into a parked Uhaul trailer, broke his leg so bad that they ended up having to wack it off. He ended up having to pay for everything. He was in acoma for 3 months, and woke up without a leg, and then the news that the navy would not be paying for it. That would suck.
Lane
08-09-2007, 02:42 PM
#4
The Navy can screw ya. If you get caught working around aircraft without double hearing protection they can make inputs on your medical record denying you 10% for tinnitis.
Also a guy in my shop had broken both hands mountain biking and he almost was denied any medical coverage. I don't know how he skimmed by.
Nate
Also a guy in my shop had broken both hands mountain biking and he almost was denied any medical coverage. I don't know how he skimmed by.
Nate
08-10-2007, 12:43 PM
#5
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: nc nof now
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
for the Marines they can take your medical if you're riding and don't have the proper safety equipment on. i have never heard of anyone loosing their bennys though. there's a medical instruction out there about it, but i've never seen anything though.
08-10-2007, 12:55 PM
#6
Teching In
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Little Rock, Arkansas
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are in the AF, i know from first hand experience that if you get in an accident and your not wearing your seatbelt, on or off base, then can make you pay for the medical treatment. My buddy was drinking and driving w/o a seatbelt and they made him pay for everything. If you are riding a motorcycle and are not wearing a helmet and kill yourself, the military can go as far as revoking your life insurance. This is the extreme mind you, but it can happen. Same thing as if you are late to work they can write you an Article 15, will they, probably not.
PS. go ask you legal office or ADC, dont take word of mouth on important issues like this
Good day
PS. go ask you legal office or ADC, dont take word of mouth on important issues like this
Good day
08-10-2007, 03:05 PM
#7
11 Second Club
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Wa.
Posts: 965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PotentialZ28
If you are in the AF, i know from first hand experience that if you get in an accident and your not wearing your seatbelt, on or off base, then can make you pay for the medical treatment. My buddy was drinking and driving w/o a seatbelt and they made him pay for everything. If you are riding a motorcycle and are not wearing a helmet and kill yourself, the military can go as far as revoking your life insurance. This is the extreme mind you, but it can happen. Same thing as if you are late to work they can write you an Article 15, will they, probably not.
PS. go ask you legal office or ADC, dont take word of mouth on important issues like this
Good day
PS. go ask you legal office or ADC, dont take word of mouth on important issues like this
Good day
Very true, Go talk to your Chain of command also. What we say on here, may not be 100% accurate, and can bite you in the ***.
Lane
Trending Topics
08-10-2007, 03:20 PM
#8
im not in the military, but ive seen people get screwed into medical bills because they didnt have a seatbelt on and wrecked off base.
being military, you HAVE to use the proper safety devices... as to that pertaining to your motorcycle issue.. i dont know.
being military, you HAVE to use the proper safety devices... as to that pertaining to your motorcycle issue.. i dont know.
08-10-2007, 03:49 PM
#9
Launching!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Osan AB, South Korea
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by camaroguy_02
ive seen a post in either this section or somewhere on this site where someone made a reference to a military reg that states the military cannot revoke our medical/dental benefits under any circumstance, but i cant find it now that i need it.
I think this is the post you're looking for:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....2&postcount=20
I know at my base, we're briefed during staff notes every week and even briefed in our weekend safety briefings that if you do something deliberate and stupid (not wearing seat-belts when it's pounded into your head at every safety briefing) that the AF can do a Line of Duty to determine if your medical bills get paid or not. We're reminded of that all the time.
Bottom line is... if they're telling you that you need certain safety gear, some kind of "briefing" by the CC before you can ride a bike, or some kind of safety class.... just do it before you start riding. It may be a minor inconvenience for you, but they do it for a reason. There's no point in going against the grain, and risk getting hurt... then finding out you can be subject to disiplinary action for not following orders, ontop of possibly losing medical benefits.
If you're really that concerned about it... just talk to ADC, see if they have any insight on that. I'm sure they've dealt with this kind of issue at one point in time or another.
Here's another thing I found:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...13/ai_n9483822
And here is AFI 36-2910, which states:
1.1. The Line Of Duty (LOD) Determination and Its Objective. A service member who dies or sustains an illness, injury, or disease either while absent from duty, or due to his or her own misconduct, stands to lose substantial government benefits. An LOD determination is a finding made after an investigation into the circumstances of a member’s illness, injury, disease or death. The finding concludes
(1) whether or not the illness, injury, or disease existed prior to service (EPTS) and if an EPTS condition was aggravated by military service,
(1) whether or not the illness, injury, or disease existed prior to service (EPTS) and if an EPTS condition was aggravated by military service,
(2) whether or not the illness, injury, disease, or death occurred while the member was absent from duty and
(3) whether or not the illness, injury, disease or death was due to the member’s own misconduct. The LOD determination protects the interests of both the member and the United States Government.
1.2. Use of the LOD Determination.
An LOD determination may impact the following:
1.2.1. Disability Retirement and Severance Pay. A member’s entitlement to disability compensation from the Air Force may be lost or reduced if the disability occurred during a period of unauthorized absence or resulted from the member’s own misconduct. (Title 10, U.S.C. 1201,
Regulars and members on active duty for more than 30 days: retirement; 1203, Regulars and members on active duty for more than 30 days: separation; 1204, Members on active duty for 30 days or less or on inactive-duty training: retirement; 1206, Members on active duty for 30 days or less or on inactive-duty training: separation; and 1207, Disability from intentional misconduct or willful neglect: separation).
1.2.2. Forfeiture of Pay. A member may not be entitled to pay if he or she was absent from regular duties for a continuous period of more than one day because of injury or disease that was directly caused by or immediately follows his or her intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. (Title 37, U.S.C. 802,
Forfeiture of pay during absence from duty due to disease from intemperate use of alcohol or drugs).
1.2.3. Extension of Enlistment. An enlisted member’s period of enlistment may be extended
to include that period of time he or she was unable to perform duties because of his or her intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. (Title 10, U.S.C. 972, Members: effect of time lost).
1.2.4. Veteran Benefits. The Department of Veteran Affairs may use a member’s official military records, including an LOD determination, when determining veteran benefits. (Title 38, U.S.C. Section: 1110,
Wartime Disability Compensation, Basic Entitlement; 1131, Peacetime Disability Compensation Veterans’ Benefits).
1.2.5. Survivor Benefit Plan. If the member dies on active duty and in the line of duty, a member’s surviving dependents may be eligible for benefits under the Survivor Benefit Plan. (Title 10, U.S.C. Section 1448,
Application of Plan; Section 643 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2002, Public Law 107-107, December 28, 2001).
1.2.6. Medical Benefits for Members of the ARC. ARC Members may be entitled to hospital benefits and medical pensions in certain circumstances. (Title 10, U.S.C. 1074a,
Medical and dental care for members and certain former members, Title 32, U.S.C. 318 Compensation for disablement during training, and Title 37, U.S.C. 204, Entitlement).
1.2.7. Incapacitation Pay for ARC Members. ARC members may be entitled to incapacitation benefits in certain circumstances. (Title 37, U.S.C.).
6 AFI36-2910 4 OCTOBER 2002
1.2.8. Basic Educational Assistance Death Benefit. Certain survivors of deceased members entitled to basic educational assistance may be entitled to death benefits (Title 37, U.S.C. 3017,
Death Benefit).
1.3. Limits on Use of an LOD Determination. An LOD determination shall not be used for the following purposes:
1.3.1. Disciplinary Action. The LOD determination is separate and distinct from judicial processes or other disciplinary actions. In some instances it may be appropriate to conduct disciplinary actions simultaneously with the LOD determination.
1.3.1. Disciplinary Action. The LOD determination is separate and distinct from judicial processes or other disciplinary actions. In some instances it may be appropriate to conduct disciplinary actions simultaneously with the LOD determination.
1.3.2. Reimbursement of Medical Expenses. An active duty member cannot be denied medical treatment based on an LOD determination. An LOD determination does not authorize the United States to recoup the cost of medical care from the active duty member.
Last edited by Grave; 08-10-2007 at 04:37 PM.
08-12-2007, 06:48 AM
#10
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton, VA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks grave - the was actually the post i was lookin for.
now, after reading the initial post about LOD u had in ur message, it stated that the use of LOD can revoke our benefits after "misconduct." i know this may be petty, but could disregard of proper safety equipment be considered misconduct?
ill do wut a few suggested and take it to adc or legal. didnt even think about that. but thank u for the regs and replies!
just fyi - im going thru the steps/process to ride legal. after tonight, ill be legal in the state of va to ride. but the commander apparently doesnt want me to ride until i have a full suit, so he said to park my bike?? we looked up the regs when we got back an the local OI states wut i needed, and its exactly wut i currently have. so they started the up-channeling procedure to see wut can be done. the OI states that we just need long-sleeve shirt, long pants, over-the-ankle protection, 3-quarter/full-face helmet an thats it. NO full suit. the AF reg states that the full suit is highly encouraged, but nto mandatory to ride. so how can the Lt. Col. just straight up tell me "dont ride," when im clearly within regs??
-edit - oh yeah, OI states we also need full-fingered gloves.
now, after reading the initial post about LOD u had in ur message, it stated that the use of LOD can revoke our benefits after "misconduct." i know this may be petty, but could disregard of proper safety equipment be considered misconduct?
ill do wut a few suggested and take it to adc or legal. didnt even think about that. but thank u for the regs and replies!
just fyi - im going thru the steps/process to ride legal. after tonight, ill be legal in the state of va to ride. but the commander apparently doesnt want me to ride until i have a full suit, so he said to park my bike?? we looked up the regs when we got back an the local OI states wut i needed, and its exactly wut i currently have. so they started the up-channeling procedure to see wut can be done. the OI states that we just need long-sleeve shirt, long pants, over-the-ankle protection, 3-quarter/full-face helmet an thats it. NO full suit. the AF reg states that the full suit is highly encouraged, but nto mandatory to ride. so how can the Lt. Col. just straight up tell me "dont ride," when im clearly within regs??
-edit - oh yeah, OI states we also need full-fingered gloves.
08-12-2007, 08:08 AM
#11
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: GA
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by camaroguy_02
so how can the Lt. Col. just straight up tell me "dont ride," when im clearly within regs??
However you could try to show your chain of command the regs. With the possibility that he might simply not be familiar with the regs. And would concide after reading them.
08-12-2007, 10:04 AM
#13
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton, VA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ls1ssdavid
Because your Commanding Officer is given the authority to make his own rules an regulations for his unit. They use the regs as a guide line.
However you could try to show your chain of command the regs. With the possibility that he might simply not be familiar with the regs. And would concide after reading them.
However you could try to show your chain of command the regs. With the possibility that he might simply not be familiar with the regs. And would concide after reading them.
unless..maybe im misreading ur post?
08-12-2007, 11:34 AM
#14
Launching!
CDR's can add to but not take away from the Reg...alot of CDR think they can tell motorcycle riders when they can and cant ride what they can and cant wear..the Army clearly out line what you have to wear..no where in there says "Suit" Im assuming he meant leather suit...not sure if there is any difference between your reg(AF) and ours in this matter..also base safety has policy's that might require more then the reg based off current riding styles...you know those guys who come home from Iraq have 20k and they go buy a nice brand new fast bike and dont know how to ride...they are the one responsible for those type adjusments...make sure your with in reg no one an say any different...
08-13-2007, 09:54 AM
#15
Launching!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Osan AB, South Korea
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by camaroguy_02
they use regs as only guidelines? then why have them if the commander can just override them at his/her discretion? everyone - even a commander - is subject to rules/regs... the rules are in place for a reason - so EVERYONE will be in unison and no questions will be asked, such as "well, this person said to do this."
unless..maybe im misreading ur post?
unless..maybe im misreading ur post?
The commander has the option (and the right) to impose stricter rules then those set out by established regulations, so long as the minimum set of rules (the regs) are being met.
The regs are the minumum established rules you have to follow. You can always add to the rules, you just can't take away from them. That is why there are AF regulations, then you have MAJCOM supplements, wing supplements, etc. The MAJCOM supps add to the AF regs, the Wing supps add to the MAJCOM supps... Group supps, Flight supps, etc.
So yes, your commander can say you need a full body suit, because it's exceeding the minimum required safety gear outlined in the written regulations.
That's the way it is.
As far as riding your bike... if you're legally licensed in VA to ride, nobody can stop you from riding off base. I just wouldn't try riding on base until you jump through all the hoops needed by the AF.
Of course, there's always risk in doing this. IF you did get into an accident, the AF is going to say, "I told you so". Then you'll be *** out.
So you gotta weigh the risks/benefits. Use your ORM!
Last edited by Grave; 08-13-2007 at 09:59 AM.
08-13-2007, 05:45 PM
#16
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Watertown, NY
Posts: 8,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe ARmy regs are different.
. Purpose: This guide is intended to assist you, as an investigating officer, in conducting a thorough formal line of duty investigation under the provisions of AR 600-8-1, dated 15 April 2004 (effective 15 MAY 04) , and completing a timely and legally sufficient report on DD Form 261. This guide addresses only the formal line of duty investigation and does not address presumptive line of duty determinations or informal line of duty investigations. The Army’s line of duty system starts from the premise that every Soldier who incurs an injury or disease while conducting himself or herself properly as a member of the Army is entitled to certain benefits. These benefits include pay and allowances, accrual of service and leave, and, in some cases, disability retirement. The Army uses the line of duty system to determine who is eligible to receive these benefits. A Soldier will receive these benefits only if it is determined that the disease, injury, or death was incurred "in the line of duty - not due to own misconduct." However, soldiers who are on active duty for a period of more than 30 days will not lose their entitlement to medical and dental care, even if their injury or disease is found to have occurred “not in the line of duty and/or because of the soldier’s intentional misconduct or willful negligence.” The determinations and related data are frequently made available to the Department of Veterans Affairs for consideration in determining the rights and benefits of individuals. This guide is intended to supplement, not replace, AR 600-8-4. The investigating officer should use this guide in conjunction with the regulation. If the guide conflicts with the regulation in any respect, the regulatory guidance controls.
http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/tenan...D_Guide(2).htm
. Purpose: This guide is intended to assist you, as an investigating officer, in conducting a thorough formal line of duty investigation under the provisions of AR 600-8-1, dated 15 April 2004 (effective 15 MAY 04) , and completing a timely and legally sufficient report on DD Form 261. This guide addresses only the formal line of duty investigation and does not address presumptive line of duty determinations or informal line of duty investigations. The Army’s line of duty system starts from the premise that every Soldier who incurs an injury or disease while conducting himself or herself properly as a member of the Army is entitled to certain benefits. These benefits include pay and allowances, accrual of service and leave, and, in some cases, disability retirement. The Army uses the line of duty system to determine who is eligible to receive these benefits. A Soldier will receive these benefits only if it is determined that the disease, injury, or death was incurred "in the line of duty - not due to own misconduct." However, soldiers who are on active duty for a period of more than 30 days will not lose their entitlement to medical and dental care, even if their injury or disease is found to have occurred “not in the line of duty and/or because of the soldier’s intentional misconduct or willful negligence.” The determinations and related data are frequently made available to the Department of Veterans Affairs for consideration in determining the rights and benefits of individuals. This guide is intended to supplement, not replace, AR 600-8-4. The investigating officer should use this guide in conjunction with the regulation. If the guide conflicts with the regulation in any respect, the regulatory guidance controls.
http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/tenan...D_Guide(2).htm
08-13-2007, 07:09 PM
#17
Originally Posted by crazylane
I know in the navy, you have to go to a drivers school, and have all of your insurance and license in line, No matter if it was your fault or not, they will not pay for the bill on your injury's. And 9 times out 10 you will get punished for it.
I know in 2006 when I shattered my ankle in San Diego riding dirt bikes, they almost did not pay for my surgory, It was about the same time that they passed that law in the USN. But I was lucky and they payed for everything.
I had a buddy on the Vinson that was riding his dirt bike at night like a dumbass. And wrecked into a parked Uhaul trailer, broke his leg so bad that they ended up having to wack it off. He ended up having to pay for everything. He was in acoma for 3 months, and woke up without a leg, and then the news that the navy would not be paying for it. That would suck.
Lane
I know in 2006 when I shattered my ankle in San Diego riding dirt bikes, they almost did not pay for my surgory, It was about the same time that they passed that law in the USN. But I was lucky and they payed for everything.
I had a buddy on the Vinson that was riding his dirt bike at night like a dumbass. And wrecked into a parked Uhaul trailer, broke his leg so bad that they ended up having to wack it off. He ended up having to pay for everything. He was in acoma for 3 months, and woke up without a leg, and then the news that the navy would not be paying for it. That would suck.
Lane
08-14-2007, 08:29 AM
#18
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton, VA
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
man...
this really blows lol.
apparently my LTs talked to the commander yesterday and he lifted the whole-suit order, but still wants me to get a jacket before i ride. i can understand the jacket, which i still plan on getting, but dont restrict me from riding when im witihin regs - ESPECIALLY when i see every single rider on-base with NO jacket (just BDU blouse).
just fyi - the commander didnt come out with a policy - he just straight up told me i needed a jacket. i just dont get why he can restrict me from riding til i get a jacket, when i see every rider on-base doesnt have one. isnt that discrimination?
my shop chief is still workin the issue, an will be gettin back to me today about it.. just wanted to kinda vent a lil bit. too frustrating to hear someone tell me - a grown man - wut i cant do.
this really blows lol.
apparently my LTs talked to the commander yesterday and he lifted the whole-suit order, but still wants me to get a jacket before i ride. i can understand the jacket, which i still plan on getting, but dont restrict me from riding when im witihin regs - ESPECIALLY when i see every single rider on-base with NO jacket (just BDU blouse).
just fyi - the commander didnt come out with a policy - he just straight up told me i needed a jacket. i just dont get why he can restrict me from riding til i get a jacket, when i see every rider on-base doesnt have one. isnt that discrimination?
my shop chief is still workin the issue, an will be gettin back to me today about it.. just wanted to kinda vent a lil bit. too frustrating to hear someone tell me - a grown man - wut i cant do.
08-14-2007, 08:34 AM
#19
helmets save lives.
jackets make you wanna live afterward.
if he left a standing jacket/gloves/boots order... i wouldnt see an issue with that. the only reason people dont do that, is they dont know.
besides, while it is frustrating to be told what you can and cant do.. it IS the military dude. lol
jackets make you wanna live afterward.
if he left a standing jacket/gloves/boots order... i wouldnt see an issue with that. the only reason people dont do that, is they dont know.
besides, while it is frustrating to be told what you can and cant do.. it IS the military dude. lol
08-14-2007, 10:20 AM
#20
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort Worth / Crowley / Burleson, Texas
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, i think the miltiary is about "Do what is right....or else" mentatlity.
I think they are also trying to get people do take responsibility for their own actions, thus is why they made regulations like this.
When I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath, the exact same thing when an NCO went off his bike a back road and unfortunatly died. Because he was not qualified to ride the bike, nor taken the safety class, did not wear protective measures, they denied ALL life insurance and billed the widow for the cost of the accident (investigation/transporation to/from hospital) etc etc.
Yes, this was an extreme case, but when they do this, they make it PUBLIC and the CC's will "scare" everyboyd into taken the proper classes if you threaten to take away all benefits.
I think they are also trying to get people do take responsibility for their own actions, thus is why they made regulations like this.
When I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath, the exact same thing when an NCO went off his bike a back road and unfortunatly died. Because he was not qualified to ride the bike, nor taken the safety class, did not wear protective measures, they denied ALL life insurance and billed the widow for the cost of the accident (investigation/transporation to/from hospital) etc etc.
Yes, this was an extreme case, but when they do this, they make it PUBLIC and the CC's will "scare" everyboyd into taken the proper classes if you threaten to take away all benefits.