georgia state flag on base
01-09-2008, 11:52 PM
#61
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You won't use the "N" word but you'll use the term "colored." 
I don't get some of the people on here complaing that he should be able to display the flag because it represents state pride, or being proud of your state isn't illegal. Hello.....
It's not the Georgia State flag anymore!!!
If he want's to exhibit his state pride, then he should use the "OFFICIAL" State flag. And another thing I don't get. Why are some people so damn "proud" of the confederate flag. It's not like any of you, your parents, or probably even grandparents fought in the Civil War and shed blood for that flag. Why the need to cling to it like it was your "woobie?"
I don't get some of the people on here complaing that he should be able to display the flag because it represents state pride, or being proud of your state isn't illegal. Hello.....
It's not the Georgia State flag anymore!!!
If he want's to exhibit his state pride, then he should use the "OFFICIAL" State flag. And another thing I don't get. Why are some people so damn "proud" of the confederate flag. It's not like any of you, your parents, or probably even grandparents fought in the Civil War and shed blood for that flag. Why the need to cling to it like it was your "woobie?"
Last edited by smoke20; 01-09-2008 at 11:53 PM. Reason: grammar
01-10-2008, 03:33 AM
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That's why I said go to your supervisor's boss, shop foreman, and shirt to get a different input other than your supervisor. These guys are right though, its all about the PERCEPTION of the person who got offended. Your rights as CIVILIAN is loong gone, military personnel have LIMITED rights which is what you are.
As far as disrespecting people here. You represent USAF on and off duty and this board is INCLUDED whether you like it or not. Know your role in the military. They might not be in your chain of command or work with you but they still OUT RANK you.
[/SSgt USAF]
As far as disrespecting people here. You represent USAF on and off duty and this board is INCLUDED whether you like it or not. Know your role in the military. They might not be in your chain of command or work with you but they still OUT RANK you.
[/SSgt USAF]
01-10-2008, 05:50 AM
#63
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Smoke, I agree. I also find rap to be offensive., but we are guardians of the Bill of Rights which gives people the right to listen to what ever they want to! On the other hand if you were to walk into the local BX/PX/NEX and found that style of music blasting into the store, then you have a right to complain and have it removed from the music list being played.
The bottom line here as I see it is...Young man from south discovered that being told what, when where why and how to do something, is not something he really likes! That is unfortunate, because he seems like a well adjusted "youngster" just finds "our" style of bussiness distasteful.
The bottom line here as I see it is...Young man from south discovered that being told what, when where why and how to do something, is not something he really likes! That is unfortunate, because he seems like a well adjusted "youngster" just finds "our" style of bussiness distasteful.
01-10-2008, 06:10 AM
#64
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I personally do not a see a problem with this. However, if it is offensive to someone, then it has to go. Now your supervisor (or whoever the hell he is) going to MEO right away for it is not:
1) giving you the benefit of the doubt and allowing you to make the change
2) going to the shirt only puts you both in the spotlight
I would take it off because you were told it was offensive. Being butthurt about it will only create more hostility than what is needed in both the workplace and even outside of the job. He cannot tell you to keep it off when your off duty. However, going on base...ya I would take it off. Just let it go
1) giving you the benefit of the doubt and allowing you to make the change
2) going to the shirt only puts you both in the spotlight
I would take it off because you were told it was offensive. Being butthurt about it will only create more hostility than what is needed in both the workplace and even outside of the job. He cannot tell you to keep it off when your off duty. However, going on base...ya I would take it off. Just let it go
01-10-2008, 07:20 AM
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Wow, this is a great discussion for both sides. Here are some rants from a 22 year recently retired MSgt:
1. I feel strong for history. The Georgia state flag in question might not have been fought by this young man or his parents, but do you throw away history by removing it from existance? No, I don't think so. History is what it is, and should not be tampered with to be PC. History teaches us not to make the same mistakes twice, something our military leaders should know. Yes, it is not the current Georgia state flag, but so what? It is history that should be preserved for the future. If someone wants to remember their roots, why not let them?
2. Some car decorations have indeed been banned from military bases. Barksdale also banned the truck nuts (ones that actually looked like a "sack")because of complaints. Truck nuts are not history, so banning them is not out of line. Large ***** on rope is another thing. It can mean anything. Being the prankster I am sometimes (to lighten up life in general), I tied a plastic taco to my trailer hitch and drove it around for 2 weeks to see if anyone would say anything. No one said anything bad, but I had a lot of "why" questions. I said it could mean anything to anyone. If someone said they were offended, I would have taken it off. I did take it off because it was stupid, but I proved a point that any object can mean something different to others.
3. Orders from a higher rank need to be taken seriously, regardless of their rank. Unlawful orders are that, but unless there is not a clear cut reason for the order is not lawful, then it should be up to you to up-channel it to a higher rank for guidance. In this case, the best thing to do is remove the plate THEN seen the advice. This is a LOT different than say a situation where a higher up tells you to shoot a dog or something else that is KNOWN unlawful. No one gets hurt when a plate is removed, so removing it before seeking guidance is the best course.
4. I have also seen the "newer" generation of kids coming into the military today. Some think they are spoiled brats who expect everything handed to them. I am guilty of this too. In 1985, I was one of those young stupid airmen too, and I know we were looked at by our supervision as spoiled kids even then. It is one of those life cycles. Talk to older vets who retired 20+ years ago and a lot would say the same things we say today: The military is going to hell because the younger generation is spoiled. News flash folks: The true whiners and complainers will get out, and ones who will stay will be our future leaders and will keep the military going. It is not the end of the world and life will continue in the military. I have to tell myself these things because I was one of those that wanted nothing of the "new" PT gear wearing AF. Things cycle in the military and changes will happen. It would be interesting to talk to our current young troops serving today what they think 20 years from now. We will hear the same things we complin about today.
The bottom line here is everyone in the military has signed a contract saying they are really nothing but a military robot. They will follow lawful orders of higher. This does mean you will do what you are told, but there are cases where you can fight for something you feel is right. The military could not function with troops who go off on their own vectors. This is why we have military discipline. How can a team win anything if they feel they can do whatever they want? This is national security folks, do what is right. Being a follower is someting everyone does, from the AB to the 4 star. Leadership will come in time, but remember everyone has to follow orders. If one cannot follow orders in the military, then a job change might be the best thing.
One last side note just to get you thinking: Nothing in your military contract states the government even has to pay you. If for some unknown reason, if funding were to go away for pay, the military person would still have to continue to work and follow lawful orders. I doubt this would ever happen, but anything is possible.
1. I feel strong for history. The Georgia state flag in question might not have been fought by this young man or his parents, but do you throw away history by removing it from existance? No, I don't think so. History is what it is, and should not be tampered with to be PC. History teaches us not to make the same mistakes twice, something our military leaders should know. Yes, it is not the current Georgia state flag, but so what? It is history that should be preserved for the future. If someone wants to remember their roots, why not let them?
2. Some car decorations have indeed been banned from military bases. Barksdale also banned the truck nuts (ones that actually looked like a "sack")because of complaints. Truck nuts are not history, so banning them is not out of line. Large ***** on rope is another thing. It can mean anything. Being the prankster I am sometimes (to lighten up life in general), I tied a plastic taco to my trailer hitch and drove it around for 2 weeks to see if anyone would say anything. No one said anything bad, but I had a lot of "why" questions. I said it could mean anything to anyone. If someone said they were offended, I would have taken it off. I did take it off because it was stupid, but I proved a point that any object can mean something different to others.
3. Orders from a higher rank need to be taken seriously, regardless of their rank. Unlawful orders are that, but unless there is not a clear cut reason for the order is not lawful, then it should be up to you to up-channel it to a higher rank for guidance. In this case, the best thing to do is remove the plate THEN seen the advice. This is a LOT different than say a situation where a higher up tells you to shoot a dog or something else that is KNOWN unlawful. No one gets hurt when a plate is removed, so removing it before seeking guidance is the best course.
4. I have also seen the "newer" generation of kids coming into the military today. Some think they are spoiled brats who expect everything handed to them. I am guilty of this too. In 1985, I was one of those young stupid airmen too, and I know we were looked at by our supervision as spoiled kids even then. It is one of those life cycles. Talk to older vets who retired 20+ years ago and a lot would say the same things we say today: The military is going to hell because the younger generation is spoiled. News flash folks: The true whiners and complainers will get out, and ones who will stay will be our future leaders and will keep the military going. It is not the end of the world and life will continue in the military. I have to tell myself these things because I was one of those that wanted nothing of the "new" PT gear wearing AF. Things cycle in the military and changes will happen. It would be interesting to talk to our current young troops serving today what they think 20 years from now. We will hear the same things we complin about today.
The bottom line here is everyone in the military has signed a contract saying they are really nothing but a military robot. They will follow lawful orders of higher. This does mean you will do what you are told, but there are cases where you can fight for something you feel is right. The military could not function with troops who go off on their own vectors. This is why we have military discipline. How can a team win anything if they feel they can do whatever they want? This is national security folks, do what is right. Being a follower is someting everyone does, from the AB to the 4 star. Leadership will come in time, but remember everyone has to follow orders. If one cannot follow orders in the military, then a job change might be the best thing.
One last side note just to get you thinking: Nothing in your military contract states the government even has to pay you. If for some unknown reason, if funding were to go away for pay, the military person would still have to continue to work and follow lawful orders. I doubt this would ever happen, but anything is possible.
01-10-2008, 07:59 AM
#66
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I live up here in Ohio. We sport the American Flag! We as a Nation won that fight. Everyone in the South who made it out alive and wanted to rejoin the States had to confess that their views failed and were wrong. They stepped down way back in the 1800s. So why now just wear the regular American flag and not even have to discuss all the drama?
This is like wearing a british flag and saying its 'your heritage' because that's where you came from or that's the views you chose to live by. We, as Americans, actually seceded from the British first. Back then, they were all suppose to be in it together. When the South tried to opt out, the Union had to shut that little operation down. They got too cocky with all the slaves down there. But those days are over. So why even try to bring any of it back??
This is like wearing a british flag and saying its 'your heritage' because that's where you came from or that's the views you chose to live by. We, as Americans, actually seceded from the British first. Back then, they were all suppose to be in it together. When the South tried to opt out, the Union had to shut that little operation down. They got too cocky with all the slaves down there. But those days are over. So why even try to bring any of it back??
01-10-2008, 09:48 AM
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I live up here in Ohio. We sport the American Flag! We as a Nation won that fight. Everyone in the South who made it out alive and wanted to rejoin the States had to confess that their views failed and were wrong. They stepped down way back in the 1800s. So why now just wear the regular American flag and not even have to discuss all the drama?
This is like wearing a british flag and saying its 'your heritage' because that's where you came from or that's the views you chose to live by. We, as Americans, actually seceded from the British first. Back then, they were all suppose to be in it together. When the South tried to opt out, the Union had to shut that little operation down. They got too cocky with all the slaves down there. But those days are over. So why even try to bring any of it back??
This is like wearing a british flag and saying its 'your heritage' because that's where you came from or that's the views you chose to live by. We, as Americans, actually seceded from the British first. Back then, they were all suppose to be in it together. When the South tried to opt out, the Union had to shut that little operation down. They got too cocky with all the slaves down there. But those days are over. So why even try to bring any of it back??
many people do sport the country of their origin in this country!!! whats wrong with that. i full blooded american but i have english and irish heritage, are you saying i shouldnt wear a shamrock??? if i had it on my car and it offended you should i have to take it off ??? thats the question here not the flag itself.
01-10-2008, 09:52 AM
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I tied a plastic taco to my trailer hitch and drove it around for 2 weeks to see if anyone would say anything. No one said anything bad, but I had a lot of "why" questions. I said it could mean anything to anyone. If someone said they were offended, I would have taken it off. I did take it off because it was stupid, but I proved a point that any object can mean something different to others.
01-10-2008, 09:54 AM
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many people do sport the country of their origin in this country!!! whats wrong with that. i full blooded american but i have english and irish heritage, are you saying i shouldnt wear a shamrock??? if i had it on my car and it offended you should i have to take it off ??? thats the question here not the flag itself.
Which country does the old Georgia flag represent? Or the confederate flag?
01-10-2008, 10:23 AM
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How about this?
If you think something is offensive, don't look at it (I.E. the FRONT of the plate).
If you hear something that is offensive, LEAVE the area if possible? If you can't, IGNORE IT. Its your right to ignore!
Common sense?
If you think something is offensive, don't look at it (I.E. the FRONT of the plate).
If you hear something that is offensive, LEAVE the area if possible? If you can't, IGNORE IT. Its your right to ignore!
Common sense?
01-10-2008, 11:04 AM
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ignoring problems is a problem, as long as its somethign that should be fixed. small things do need to be ignored. its not the object that is the disscussion its the fact of the matter.
01-10-2008, 11:01 PM
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Okay, how about this....
Replace the flag in question (containing the Confederate flag) with a **** Swastika flag.
How many of you would defend the OP's right to display that? Some of you might say, "That's totally different!," but is it really? They both represent something, that to some people, is/was quite horrendous.
The main point that I, and many others, have been trying to make is that we all need to try and get along, especially if you're in the military. As civilians, we have more options and choices with where we live, who we work with, etc... That is not so in the military, and one thing the OP will learn, as he matures, is that you really need to choose your battles wisely. Sometimes the **** is just not worth it.
Are you serious??? I can just hear it now....
"Well you see officer, I was offended by the front plate, so I didn't look at it. If he wouldn't have had that thing on his car, then I would have seen him better and not hit him. It's not my fault at all. It's all his for having that offensive plate!"
Replace the flag in question (containing the Confederate flag) with a **** Swastika flag.
How many of you would defend the OP's right to display that? Some of you might say, "That's totally different!," but is it really? They both represent something, that to some people, is/was quite horrendous.
The main point that I, and many others, have been trying to make is that we all need to try and get along, especially if you're in the military. As civilians, we have more options and choices with where we live, who we work with, etc... That is not so in the military, and one thing the OP will learn, as he matures, is that you really need to choose your battles wisely. Sometimes the **** is just not worth it.
Originally Posted by Splitz
How about this?
If you think something is offensive, don't look at it (I.E. the FRONT of the plate).
If you think something is offensive, don't look at it (I.E. the FRONT of the plate).
"Well you see officer, I was offended by the front plate, so I didn't look at it. If he wouldn't have had that thing on his car, then I would have seen him better and not hit him. It's not my fault at all. It's all his for having that offensive plate!"
01-11-2008, 05:43 AM
#73
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^^ Good point......
However, few slaves acutally "died" they were repressed.
The Jews were MURDERED on a much greater scale (12 million?)
*donning flame suit* ANd I'm not a racist, but I do believe it is on a different scale, but perhaps the same intention. And i understand where you are coming from as well.
This isn't a battle I wouldn't necessarily want either.
The last thing you want to do is get on the 1st Sgt./Commanders Radar. Could be seen as a "troublemaker", then you are screwed. Been there....done that!
However, few slaves acutally "died" they were repressed.
The Jews were MURDERED on a much greater scale (12 million?)
*donning flame suit* ANd I'm not a racist, but I do believe it is on a different scale, but perhaps the same intention. And i understand where you are coming from as well.
This isn't a battle I wouldn't necessarily want either.
The last thing you want to do is get on the 1st Sgt./Commanders Radar. Could be seen as a "troublemaker", then you are screwed. Been there....done that!
01-12-2008, 05:12 AM
#74
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All I can say is I'm not racist or a southerner or anything like that, but when black people want to sit there and label those who wave a confederate flag as "racists", that just pisses me off.
It also pisses me off when people "look" for stupid **** to nail you on, in this case your black supervisor trying to say the stars and bars offend him. Gee why? That's right....because if you're white and wave a dixie flag somehow or another you MUST be racist.
That's the ONLY reason it offend him, is because he's ignorant. Because the confederate flag stands for the original 13 colonies. Yet people try and associate it with slavery and the KKK. Give me a ******* break.
At my squadron we have one of all 50 flags that are lined up along the hall, yes we even have a Georgia flag with the stars and bars on it. I'm surprised no one yet has tried to have it removed...or maybe they have and was told to get fucked.
Now that I'm off my soap box, yes the sad reality of this is because you're only an A1C and he's a SSgt he's got you over a barrel and there ain't **** you can do about it. So you need to remove it and press on. Is it fair? No not really but neither is life.
But with that said I will ask this? What kind of music does your supervisor like to listen to? Rap?
Because if so, you can legally turn the tables on him....how??? Rap constantly uses the words "bitch", "hoe" and the N word...and FWIW the N word has ZERO place in the work area.
It also pisses me off when people "look" for stupid **** to nail you on, in this case your black supervisor trying to say the stars and bars offend him. Gee why? That's right....because if you're white and wave a dixie flag somehow or another you MUST be racist.
That's the ONLY reason it offend him, is because he's ignorant. Because the confederate flag stands for the original 13 colonies. Yet people try and associate it with slavery and the KKK. Give me a ******* break.
At my squadron we have one of all 50 flags that are lined up along the hall, yes we even have a Georgia flag with the stars and bars on it. I'm surprised no one yet has tried to have it removed...or maybe they have and was told to get fucked.
Now that I'm off my soap box, yes the sad reality of this is because you're only an A1C and he's a SSgt he's got you over a barrel and there ain't **** you can do about it. So you need to remove it and press on. Is it fair? No not really but neither is life.
But with that said I will ask this? What kind of music does your supervisor like to listen to? Rap?
Because if so, you can legally turn the tables on him....how??? Rap constantly uses the words "bitch", "hoe" and the N word...and FWIW the N word has ZERO place in the work area.
