H/C WS6 vs. turbocharged Integra GSR
12-07-2008, 09:11 AM
#61
Increasing displacement will not yield more power, only torque! The only way to increase hp is to have enough VE past redline(meaning more torque in the higher rpms). Keeping the setup the same, while only increase displacement will only yield more torque.
Why did the S2k increase from 2.0 to 2.2 but the hp remained the same? Torque was increase, but not hp. Same with the Dodge diesel. It increased from 5.9 to 6.7 but power remained the same. Torque was augmented though.
People keep saying torque wins races. I say to you this. Line up a C6Z and a 2006 Viper and run em. Let me know who wins.
Why did the S2k increase from 2.0 to 2.2 but the hp remained the same? Torque was increase, but not hp. Same with the Dodge diesel. It increased from 5.9 to 6.7 but power remained the same. Torque was augmented though.
People keep saying torque wins races. I say to you this. Line up a C6Z and a 2006 Viper and run em. Let me know who wins.
12-07-2008, 09:25 AM
#63
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Im not bench racing a viper and a c6 z. The increase in displacement for the s2k was done by honda correct? It makes no sense to add Hp to the car when the buyers demanded more TQ End of that. Same thing with dodge bro try again. We are talking aftermarket performance parts. Bottom line again Increasing displacement will add HP And TQ To make it better add some good heads and cam's to the mix and exhaust there that helps u understand better?
The reason why the S2k's hp stayed the same is due to a lower redline. Now, if they where to extend that redline to where enough VE would be present(higher lift, longer duration cams) then yes it would make more hp. And the reason why is, you would have more torque in the higher rpms which equates to more hp:
Its better to make torque in the higher rpms with a linear graph, than peak torque down low. This is why diesels are not ideal for drag racing, because they can not take advantage of gearing correctly.
12-07-2008, 09:30 AM
#64
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You can't because we all know the car with less displacement and less torque will win.
So if torque wins races, how come an:
S2k > 5.0 mustang, V6 Mustang, Mustang GT(not the current)
C6Z > Viper
350z > 96 V12 Mercedes
What we need to discuss weight, gearing vs torque because not all cars need "tons" of torque to help in accelerating a lighter vehicle.
So if torque wins races, how come an:
S2k > 5.0 mustang, V6 Mustang, Mustang GT(not the current)
C6Z > Viper
350z > 96 V12 Mercedes
What we need to discuss weight, gearing vs torque because not all cars need "tons" of torque to help in accelerating a lighter vehicle.
12-07-2008, 10:04 AM
#65
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Wow, why the hell is with everyone flaming 25 psi? He's not said anything bad in this thread particularly.
Torque, hp, whatever... They are two different ways of measuring, indicating where a motor works best, and at what rpm...
F1 cars have little tq and alot of power, so they're slow? No, it means their power is in higher rpms... Their gearing is designed around that.
Max effort stock cube 346 NA LS1's have more hp than tq. Are they slow? No, they redline at least to 7k and have 4.11's in the back to take advantage of power in the higher rpms and a smaller range of power.
A poor example but which car is faster:
1. 300 tq and 300 hp
2. 200 tq and 400 hp
3. 400 tq and 200 hp
Answer: none... If each is given the right gearing and rpm range they are all making the SAME power to pull the car, just in different ranges of their motors. Of course the one that would be most fun to drive would be number 1 with a wide curve... The one that would have the most immediate power would be 3... The one that would be ideal to keep in high rpm is 2 with the right gearing and at the right rpm...
Hp sells cars torque wins races is a VERY old quote...
Torque, hp, whatever... They are two different ways of measuring, indicating where a motor works best, and at what rpm...
F1 cars have little tq and alot of power, so they're slow? No, it means their power is in higher rpms... Their gearing is designed around that.
Max effort stock cube 346 NA LS1's have more hp than tq. Are they slow? No, they redline at least to 7k and have 4.11's in the back to take advantage of power in the higher rpms and a smaller range of power.
A poor example but which car is faster:
1. 300 tq and 300 hp
2. 200 tq and 400 hp
3. 400 tq and 200 hp
Answer: none... If each is given the right gearing and rpm range they are all making the SAME power to pull the car, just in different ranges of their motors. Of course the one that would be most fun to drive would be number 1 with a wide curve... The one that would have the most immediate power would be 3... The one that would be ideal to keep in high rpm is 2 with the right gearing and at the right rpm...
Hp sells cars torque wins races is a VERY old quote...
12-07-2008, 10:36 AM
#66
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Im not bench racing a viper and a c6 z. The increase in displacement for the s2k was done by honda correct? It makes no sense to add Hp to the car when the buyers demanded more TQ End of that. Same thing with dodge bro try again. We are talking aftermarket performance parts. Bottom line again Increasing displacement will add HP And TQ To make it better add some good heads and cam's to the mix and exhaust there that helps u understand better?
12-07-2008, 11:02 AM
#68
When selecting a torque converter for an automatic transmission vehicle ideally you want a converter that flashes a few hundred RPM shy of the peak torque, not peak HP. Having the engine at peak torque is what creates the intial surge in momentum. This works both from a stop in traditional drag racing, or from a roll in rice racing.
I've learned a new term from the rice racing crowd: torque jump. Do you know what that implies? And that term is surprisingly correct, considering the underwhelming source.
Given 2 similarly performing vehicles, the one who builds its momentum (gets the jump) first almost always wins. Given that torque is the sole reason for the jump, torque wins races.
12-07-2008, 11:27 AM
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I editing out the rest of your post because it's nothing but nonsensical crap that has absolutely no foundation outside of your backwards brain.
When selecting a torque converter for an automatic transmission vehicle ideally you want a converter that flashes a few hundred RPM shy of the peak torque, not peak HP. Having the engine at peak torque is what creates the intial surge in momentum. This works both from a stop in traditional drag racing, or from a roll in rice racing.
I've learned a new term from the rice racing crowd: torque jump. Do you know what that implies? And that term is surprisingly correct, considering the underwhelming source.
Given 2 similarly performing vehicles, the one who builds its momentum (gets the jump) first almost always wins. Given that torque is the sole reason for the jump, torque wins races.
When selecting a torque converter for an automatic transmission vehicle ideally you want a converter that flashes a few hundred RPM shy of the peak torque, not peak HP. Having the engine at peak torque is what creates the intial surge in momentum. This works both from a stop in traditional drag racing, or from a roll in rice racing.
I've learned a new term from the rice racing crowd: torque jump. Do you know what that implies? And that term is surprisingly correct, considering the underwhelming source.
Given 2 similarly performing vehicles, the one who builds its momentum (gets the jump) first almost always wins. Given that torque is the sole reason for the jump, torque wins races.
L98
LS1
LT1
All use 5.7 liter motors. They weigh nearly the same and torque numbers are parallel in comparison.
The ls1 is significantly faster not because of torque(they make the same), but due to a higher redline and more "HP". Since the LS1 is capable of sustaining torque throughout a higher rpm range, it is able to take advantage of gearing. Another example is a GSR Intergra vs LS Integra. Both make the same amount of torque, but the GSR is able to stay in gear longer, have a higher rpm therefore making more hp.
This person uses the same analogy as myself:
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/hptorque.htm
12-07-2008, 11:59 AM
#70
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Not true. I've given you examples on how this applies in an earlier illustration.
L98
LS1
LT1
All use 5.7 liter motors. They weigh nearly the same and torque numbers are parallel in comparison.
The ls1 is significantly faster not because of torque(they make the same), but due to a higher redline and more "HP". Since the LS1 is capable of sustaining torque throughout a higher rpm range, it is able to take advantage of gearing. Another example is a GSR Intergra vs LS Integra. Both make the same amount of torque, but the GSR is able to stay in gear longer, have a higher rpm therefore making more hp.
This person uses the same analogy as myself:
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/hptorque.htm
L98
LS1
LT1
All use 5.7 liter motors. They weigh nearly the same and torque numbers are parallel in comparison.
The ls1 is significantly faster not because of torque(they make the same), but due to a higher redline and more "HP". Since the LS1 is capable of sustaining torque throughout a higher rpm range, it is able to take advantage of gearing. Another example is a GSR Intergra vs LS Integra. Both make the same amount of torque, but the GSR is able to stay in gear longer, have a higher rpm therefore making more hp.
This person uses the same analogy as myself:
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/hptorque.htm
Yes, and when people start modding the LS1 with big heads and big cams, why do they also go with tighter gear ratios? Because they've shifted their powerband up, make significantly more hp than tq, and have a smaller area of power up... The same is true of LS1's with centrifugal superchargers... More hp than tq... High gear ratios to take advantage and stay in the smaller area of hp up top... People here know this, but some are arguing simply because you're 25 psi. lol
12-07-2008, 12:14 PM
#71
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Yes, and when people start modding the LS1 with big heads and big cams, why do they also go with tighter gear ratios? Because they've shifted their powerband up, make significantly more hp than tq, and have a smaller area of power up... The same is true of LS1's with centrifugal superchargers... More hp than tq... High gear ratios to take advantage and stay in the smaller area of hp up top... People here know this, but some are arguing simply because you're 25 psi. lol
12-07-2008, 01:54 PM
#72
What isn't true? Just my last statement or the whole post. I suggest you go back to post 36 and read my original reply. You claimed torque output has very little importance in racing, and I said it does. In drag racing, getting off the line well is paramount, and that's where torque is king.
Your examples are VERY poor. If torque does no matter, consider my example. One engine makes 300 HP and 300 lb/ft torque. The second engine makes the same 300 HP but makes 400 lb/ft torque. Given the same vehicle, the second engine will be quicker and faster. But according to you, they should run the same.
Your examples are VERY poor. If torque does no matter, consider my example. One engine makes 300 HP and 300 lb/ft torque. The second engine makes the same 300 HP but makes 400 lb/ft torque. Given the same vehicle, the second engine will be quicker and faster. But according to you, they should run the same.
Do you know the definition of power? Hit up wikipedia or something and get back to us.
12-07-2008, 02:42 PM
#74
Well I dont know you at all but No I did not. The point is this bro Adding displacement will net you HP and TQ, But it also boils down to how you build the motor. On a quick note a Indy car makes around 800 hp and 500 tq
Somthing like that dosent need alot of tq because it weighs nothing. Now comparing a s2k to a 5.0 mustang is really nill. The cars stock make close to the same power but one weighs less, So yes the s2k will be faster. But add gears to the stang to help the tq get the car moving then its a different outcome. I dont really care anymore because If a 350 hp 600 tq diesel truck can run a low 13 sec pass I will chalk that up to TQ not hp but TQ. This post was a kill for a F-body and I help laden it with crap. That gsr needed tires the F -body laid the smak down end of story Im sick of excuses and physics laptop internet, Fast N furious, Need for speed, and ricer math on why a import lost or should have won Im out
Somthing like that dosent need alot of tq because it weighs nothing. Now comparing a s2k to a 5.0 mustang is really nill. The cars stock make close to the same power but one weighs less, So yes the s2k will be faster. But add gears to the stang to help the tq get the car moving then its a different outcome. I dont really care anymore because If a 350 hp 600 tq diesel truck can run a low 13 sec pass I will chalk that up to TQ not hp but TQ. This post was a kill for a F-body and I help laden it with crap. That gsr needed tires the F -body laid the smak down end of story Im sick of excuses and physics laptop internet, Fast N furious, Need for speed, and ricer math on why a import lost or should have won Im out
12-07-2008, 02:43 PM
#75
TECH Senior Member
Not true. I've given you examples on how this applies in an earlier illustration.
L98
LS1
LT1
All use 5.7 liter motors. They weigh nearly the same and torque numbers are parallel in comparison.
The ls1 is significantly faster not because of torque(they make the same), but due to a higher redline and more "HP". Since the LS1 is capable of sustaining torque throughout a higher rpm range, it is able to take advantage of gearing. Another example is a GSR Intergra vs LS Integra. Both make the same amount of torque, but the GSR is able to stay in gear longer, have a higher rpm therefore making more hp.
This person uses the same analogy as myself:
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/hptorque.htm
L98
LS1
LT1
All use 5.7 liter motors. They weigh nearly the same and torque numbers are parallel in comparison.
The ls1 is significantly faster not because of torque(they make the same), but due to a higher redline and more "HP". Since the LS1 is capable of sustaining torque throughout a higher rpm range, it is able to take advantage of gearing. Another example is a GSR Intergra vs LS Integra. Both make the same amount of torque, but the GSR is able to stay in gear longer, have a higher rpm therefore making more hp.
This person uses the same analogy as myself:
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/hptorque.htm
"Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same. "
TORQUE moves the car, hp is a made up number by us.
Gearing manipulates TORQUE, that's why its better to have TORQUE at higher RPMs (before you switch into the next gear) than in lower RPMs.
Peak numbers are meaningless, like your comparison between the L89, LT1 and LS1 (like you've done before in many threads, all with the same outcome of you being proven wrong). Your only comparing the peak number the engines make. The LS1 is quicker because it makes more torque from idle to redline.
12-07-2008, 03:40 PM
#76
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Yes it's in a light car...The much higher hp number basically indicates that the peak tq. is made at a VERY high rpm... Okay, so what, that's not a bad thing when the engine and the gearing are designed to be at that rpm and have nice chunk of powerband too, just at a higher range of rpms.
12-07-2008, 03:55 PM
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About the vid... Both cars seemed just as fast to me... I don't think either car had an edge, but the Honda driver couldn't drive for **** it seemed... And on the dig run, that was just pointless... TA driver kicked ***.
haha 
12-08-2008, 08:08 PM
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