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Looking at 2000 and 2001 LS1 F bodies

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Old 10-06-2016, 01:43 AM
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Default Looking at 2000 and 2001 LS1 F bodies

I am looking to get into a 1998-2002 LS1 F-body. Must be an automatic (I am lazy....lol). I have previous experience of owning several 1986/87 turbo buicks in the past.
I have read that the 1998's are completely different and to stay away from them.
I read that the 2001 and 2002 LS1's had the LS6 intake on them, but had a smaller cam. The 1999/2000 LS1's seem to be more plentiful around me.
Is it better to get a 2000 LS1 and add a LS6 intake? I heard the 2000's have a bigger cam than the 01/02's.
These cars are drivers with over 100k miles on them.
I am looking for a driver to take to track on test and tune night for a few runs down the 1/4 mile once in awhile.
Any info and advice is welcome. I am like a sponge soaking up the LS engine lingo. Of course I am going to read up on it as much as I can also so I don't ask questions that are too basic.....lol. The 1999 to 2002 LS1 f bodies seem to be amazing cars (never been in or drove one yet). I am excited to grab a low end driver and tinker with it.
Thanks in advance to everyone.
Greg
Old 10-06-2016, 02:19 AM
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I've had all the years, except 2001.

I would not stay away from a '98 at all. In fact, they are my favorite year as you won't have to worry about the sail panel or hardtop roof bubbling (as long as you get one built before 05/98), and they come with an Auburn rear stock (I prefer this to the Torsen in the '99+ cars.)

The main reason people don't like a '98 is the one-year-only PCM. It's not as advanced as the newer PCMs and this can become a limitation if you are planning a major build that will require extensive tuning (such as forced induction.) For a typical bolt-on or even basic heads/cam package, the '98 PCM is fine in my opinion. '98s also use the older metal gas tank and different fuel pump assembly vs. '99+. This may or may not be a concern depending on your plans. There is a rumor than the '98 cylinder heads (806 castings) are not as good as the '99-'00 heads (853 casting). That's simply not true, the only difference is the valve cover style (perimeter bolt vs. center bolt.) The heads didn't actually "improve" until the 241 castings of 2001 (some very late '00 cars got these as well) and beyond. But even then, the difference is very minor and only in regards to the casting finish, and completely negated once any of the heads (806/853/241) are ported.

There is no "magic" in the '01+ cars. My '02 was no better a car than my '98, and any stock performance difference between the two was not perceivable. I would absolutely recommend that you get the nicest condition example you can find for your money rather than hold out for any specific model year. The differences between them are not significant enough to justify passing up a better deal/nicer condition car of any particular model year.

To me, the best '01+ specific part was the LS6 intake. That, or something even better, can always be added to an older model. There are many other small differences from year to year, whether or not they matter or are better or worse is mostly a matter of preference/subjective.

Here are a couple of threads where myself and others posted some pretty comprehensive reviews of the differences between the model years. Definitely review these if you want a strong understanding of the differences and some general/common concerns, weaknesses, and information:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/chevrolet...s-pleases.html

https://ls1tech.com/forums/new-ls1-o...need-know.html
Old 10-06-2016, 01:28 PM
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^^^ agree.
Since you're after an automatic,two areas of concern.
They had 2 different rearend ratios,standard was 2.73(GU2),optional was 3.23(GU5).
Flexplates changed in design,98 had round 'flex' holes in the plate,02 had 'peanut' shaped holes in the plate. Somewhere between the two,the design changed. You would have to do a search in the auto tranny forum for 'peanut' to get a more specific changeover year. The flexplate with the peanut shaped holes are prone to break.

3 mods to do are:torque convertor such as Yank SS3600 or equivalent,rear shocks to help control 'wheel hop'(causes rear end internals breakage),and LCA relocation brackets.
Old 10-06-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FirstYrLS1Z
^^^ agree.
Since you're after an automatic,two areas of concern.
They had 2 different rearend ratios,standard was 2.73(GU2),optional was 3.23(GU5).
Flexplates changed in design,98 had round 'flex' holes in the plate,02 had 'peanut' shaped holes in the plate. Somewhere between the two,the design changed. You would have to do a search in the auto tranny forum for 'peanut' to get a more specific changeover year. The flexplate with the peanut shaped holes are prone to break.

3 mods to do are:torque convertor such as Yank SS3600 or equivalent,rear shocks to help control 'wheel hop'(causes rear end internals breakage),and LCA relocation brackets.
I agree on all counts.

The flexplate changeover happened in model year 2001. '98-'00 got the older, stronger flexplate. '01+ are weaker and prone to breakage.
Old 10-06-2016, 05:29 PM
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from post#2-'98 is the one-year-only PCM. The early hypertech handheld programmers,if you wanted one for a 98 LS1 f-bod it was also was good for the 97 LS1 vette. The LS1 in the 97 vette was so successful,GM rushed the 97 vette engine into 98 LS1 f-bods. Engine parts numbers were virtually identical between 97 vette and 98 f-bods. Same cam,same injectors. 99 f-bods got a milder cam and smaller injectors to accommodate. There are those that only acquire 98 LS1 f-bods because of having the 97 vette motor. Found this out after I got my 98. If I wanted more power,I'd be doing later heads and LS6 intake. I'm thoroughly content with the 98 as it now has a decent convertor and has been reliable for many trips from Ohio to Florida.
Also early LS1 f-bods have piston 'slap' upon cold start-up that goes away when warmed up and the pistons expand with the heat.
Old 10-06-2016, 06:53 PM
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The 1998 F-body cars are fantastic, and there a lot of very fast well modded ones. I have no idea who gave you that bogus information.
Old 10-06-2016, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by FirstYrLS1Z
Same cam,same injectors. 99 f-bods got a milder cam and smaller injectors to accommodate. There are those that only acquire 98 LS1 f-bods because of having the 97 vette motor.
The C5s had a cam specific to them in the 1997-2000 years, this is why they didn't have EGR even though the F-bodies did. Starting in 2001, all LS1 engines (C5, F-body) used the same cam (LQ4/9 truck cam.) I do remember hearing that a limited number of F-bodies got a C5 cam early in '98 production, due to parts shortages or something of that nature, but this was not true for the majority of that model year. There was an F-body specific cam in 1998 (which was the same for '99 and '00), which is again why the F-body had EGR and C5 did not.

You are correct about the injectors getting smaller for 1999 though. They stayed smaller in 2000 as well. 2001+ went back to larger injectors, like the '98.

Originally Posted by FirstYrLS1Z
Also early LS1 f-bods have piston 'slap' upon cold start-up that goes away when warmed up and the pistons expand with the heat.
This was supposed to be the case (they were updated with coated piston skirts for 2001+, if I remember correctly), but in my experience my 2002 was the worst slapper I've ever owned. My '98 is basically silent in comparison - and so was my '99 and '00.
Old 10-06-2016, 07:12 PM
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I guess I stand corrected on some of the details !!!
Old 10-07-2016, 10:42 AM
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OP im on my 4th f body, first was a 2001, then a 00, then another 00. my current is a 98 ws6, and let me tell you theres no reason to avoid the 98, in fact this car is the cleanest and best running f body ive had to date. Minor things arnt really a big deal, PCM is unique, perimeter bolt valve covers, fuel tank is metal, etc.

A lot of ppl will say get the 00 and up it has the ls6 intake blah blah blah,

look at it this way, you buy an f body regardless of year your going to mod it most likely right? Are you going to buy an 00 and up and say nah I don't need to touch the intake manifold its good enough? Some do but most don't. The best choice and nets the most gains is still the FAST 92's and 102's and if your going to have that as end goal it doesn't really matter if you have ls6 OEM or not.


98 supposedly has weaker rods but as long as your not aiming for breaking the 450rwhp barrier or going FI then its not an issue, and if you are then you would be looking into swapping that anyway on a 99+ car.
Old 10-07-2016, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by usnfenix
A lot of ppl will say get the 00 and up it has the ls6 intake blah blah blah,

look at it this way, you buy an f body regardless of year your going to mod it most likely right? Are you going to buy an 00 and up and say nah I don't need to touch the intake manifold its good enough?
No LS6 intake stock on any 2000 models. That started in 2001.

Originally Posted by usnfenix
98 supposedly has weaker rods
As far as I know, it's only the rod *bolts* that are considered to be weaker. It's not much of an issue unless you're going to rev beyond 64-6500rpm or so. The later rod bolts are usually considered safe for 200-300 more rpm.
Old 10-08-2016, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6
This was supposed to be the case (they were updated with coated piston skirts for 2001+, if I remember correctly), but in my experience my 2002 was the worst slapper I've ever owned. My '98 is basically silent in comparison - and so was my '99 and '00.
I don't think there's much of a model year variation in piston slap as much as car to car. More of a matter of basic production variation. My 00 slaps terribly and uses some oil, but has a quiet valvetrain. My 02 has a noisy valvetrain, very little piston slap, and doesn't use oil. My 01 had piston slap and a noisy valvetrain but didn't use much oil.
Old 10-08-2016, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6
No LS6 intake stock on any 2000 models. That started in 2001.





As far as I know, it's only the rod *bolts* that are considered to be weaker. It's not much of an issue unless you're going to rev beyond 64-6500rpm or so. The later rod bolts are usually considered safe for 200-300 more rpm.
didnt late model 00 get the intake?

it is the rod bolts. But i wouldnt dig down that far to only do rod bolts lol.
Old 10-09-2016, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by RevGTO
I don't think there's much of a model year variation in piston slap as much as car to car. More of a matter of basic production variation. My 00 slaps terribly and uses some oil, but has a quiet valvetrain. My 02 has a noisy valvetrain, very little piston slap, and doesn't use oil. My 01 had piston slap and a noisy valvetrain but didn't use much oil.
I agree. I've heard all different years with very bad slap, and also all different years with no/virtually no slap at all. It definitely doesn't seem tied to any particular model year.

Originally Posted by usnfenix
didnt late model 00 get the intake?
No, but I think you might be confusing this with the 241 heads that were technically a 2001+ casting but were issued to some of the late '00 cars. LS1 intake and EGR continued all the way to the very last 2000 model year cars built. There could be no exceptions to this as the EGR system was needed for the LS1 cam still in use on the very last 2000 models (LQ4/9 truck cam usage didn't begin until the start of 2001 MY.) The LS6 intake was not tapped for EGR (nor did GM ever modify these on the assembly line for use with EGR; however SLP did, for a time, offer LS6 intakes tapped for EGR and sold them via their retail outlet but not as a Y2Y option and not during the 2000 model year), so it would not have been compatible with the EPA certification for a 2000 MY F-body LS1.

Or perhaps you're thinking of the exhaust manifolds - what ultimately became the 2001+ design was actually first introduced for the 2000 model year, but with the EGR boss drilled out to accommodate the EGR system still in place for the 2000s. 2001-02 still have the provisional area for this on the exhaust manifold, it's just not drilled out.
Old 10-09-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lsgreg65
I am looking to get into a 1998-2002 LS1 F-body. Must be an automatic (I am lazy....lol). I have previous experience of owning several 1986/87 turbo buicks in the past.
I have read that the 1998's are completely different and to stay away from them.
I read that the 2001 and 2002 LS1's had the LS6 intake on them, but had a smaller cam. The 1999/2000 LS1's seem to be more plentiful around me.
Is it better to get a 2000 LS1 and add a LS6 intake? I heard the 2000's have a bigger cam than the 01/02's.
These cars are drivers with over 100k miles on them.
I am looking for a driver to take to track on test and tune night for a few runs down the 1/4 mile once in awhile.
Any info and advice is welcome. I am like a sponge soaking up the LS engine lingo. Of course I am going to read up on it as much as I can also so I don't ask questions that are too basic.....lol. The 1999 to 2002 LS1 f bodies seem to be amazing cars (never been in or drove one yet). I am excited to grab a low end driver and tinker with it.
Thanks in advance to everyone.
Greg
Well you are definitely looking in the correct year range. The 5th gen and onward camaros all have bad blind spots and are not worth picking up for that reason alone. If someone wants to satisfy their "new car feeling" and buy brand new off the lot, then the correct way to do it is to do it right and go with the new vette. That being said, if you are looking at used, then 2000-2002 4th gen F-body is the way to go. I went that route and could't be happier. Keep in mind, that you will most likely want to upgrade the cam and the intake in the future anyway, so I wouldn't put much weight into the cam type or intake type when deciding on which year to purchase. I would look for a car that has the basic modifications done to it already, as it will save you both time and money from the start.

Look for a car that at least has headers, full exhaust, cam, heads, fast intake, lid, and rear end already replaced with aftermarket. Suspension upgrade are a must on these cars as well to get their true benefit. Expect to replace at least the panhard bar, torque arm, rear sway bar, and rear control arms to upgraded components from UMI, BMR, Spohn Founders, MWC, etc to get the most out of your suspension. Subframe connectors are a nice add on as well. Good luck in your search.
Old 10-09-2016, 05:50 PM
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If you're looking for best bang for the buck go with the plain old Camaro Z28. It will be $1K cheaper than the SS or Firebird Trans AM, and $2K-$3K cheaper than a WS6. The ram air hoods look cool, but don't add very much. You can set up a better ram air set up on the cheap yourself.

Another advantage to the Camaro are less things that can break. The powered antennae motors, window and head light motors are pretty prone to failing on these. A Z28 with plain old window cranks would be ideal in my book. PW motors are a pain. The Firebird inner plastic door panels easily crack. So if you mind staring at cracks in the door panels, get the Camaro. The most in-demand car is the WS6. But once modded, they lose a lot of that charm vs. stock vehicles. Try to buy a car already modded closely to what you want and you'll save big. They don't go for all that much more than a stock vehicle with lower miles. Just make sure you get a modded car from the guy who had the work done and can prove it. If it previous owner did it the documentation trail needs to be good.

Hardtops will be cheaper but most everyone prefers TTops. The hardtops are lighter and more rigid...and probably faster because of that. WS6's only come TTops. You can buy a low optioned base model LS1 on the cheap....knowing that when it's time to sell, you may have a car in very low demand to try and unload. If you don't mind paying the premium for say a modded SOM WS6 or even SS, those will always get interest.

Last edited by Firebrian; 10-09-2016 at 05:59 PM.
Old 10-09-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Firebrian
If you're looking for best bang for the buck go with the plain old Camaro Z28. It will be $1K cheaper than the SS or Firebird Trans AM, and $2K-$3K cheaper than a WS6. The ram air hoods look cool, but don't add very much. You can set up a better ram air set up on the cheap yourself.

Another advantage to the Camaro are less things that can break. The powered antennae motors, window and head light motors are pretty prone to failing on these. A Z28 with plain old window cranks would be ideal in my book. PW motors are a pain. The Firebird inner plastic door panels easily crack. So if you mind staring at cracks in the door panels, get the Camaro. The most in-demand car is the WS6. But once modded, they lose a lot of that charm vs. stock vehicles. Try to buy a car already modded closely to what you want and you'll save big. They don't go for all that much more than a stock vehicle with lower miles. Just make sure you get a modded car from the guy who had the work done and can prove it. If it previous owner did it the documentation trail needs to be good.
I agree on all counts.

I was recently reminded by someone that the earlier Pontiac door panels weren't prone to the cracking issues - something about a supplier change that made them weaker and exposed the design problem. However I don't know for certain when exactly the change took place, as I've not done a ton of research on this.

The only Camaro specific concern I can think of are the hazing headlights. But, as you mentioned, the headlight gears and motors are an issue for the Pontiacs, so either way you'll have a headlight concern. It's pretty much a non-issue on the Camaros as long as the car is stored inside and you keep the headlights waxed (for UV protection while driving in the sun.) You'd have to really keep up with constant waxing and/or periodic use of some sort of UV resistant sealant/clear coat/etc. if you want to prevent hazing on an outdoor daily driver. Otherwise periodic wet sanding and re-polishing will eventually become necessary (or just replacement of the headlights, though the aftermarket ones require some modification and manipulation to fit decently; assembly line originals are no longer available from GM - you get aftermarket Depo housings with a "GM" stamped lens if you order from the dealer.)

Originally Posted by Firebrian
Hardtops will be cheaper but most everyone prefers TTops. The hardtops are lighter and more rigid...and probably faster because of that. WS6's only come TTops.
Just to clarify, it wasn't the WS6 option that included T-tops, this feature became standard for all Trans Ams starting in 1998 - WS6 or not. Formula, however, was still available as a hardtop in the early LS1 years at least. I can't remember if T-tops became standard for Formula by 2002 or not.
Old 10-10-2016, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6
I agree on all counts.

I was recently reminded by someone that the earlier Pontiac door panels weren't prone to the cracking issues - something about a supplier change that made them weaker and exposed the design problem. However I don't know for certain when exactly the change took place, as I've not done a ton of research on this.

The only Camaro specific concern I can think of are the hazing headlights. But, as you mentioned, the headlight gears and motors are an issue for the Pontiacs, so either way you'll have a headlight concern. It's pretty much a non-issue on the Camaros as long as the car is stored inside and you keep the headlights waxed (for UV protection while driving in the sun.) You'd have to really keep up with constant waxing and/or periodic use of some sort of UV resistant sealant/clear coat/etc. if you want to prevent hazing on an outdoor daily driver. Otherwise periodic wet sanding and re-polishing will eventually become necessary (or just replacement of the headlights, though the aftermarket ones require some modification and manipulation to fit decently; assembly line originals are no longer available from GM - you get aftermarket Depo housings with a "GM" stamped lens if you order from the dealer.)



Just to clarify, it wasn't the WS6 option that included T-tops, this feature became standard for all Trans Ams starting in 1998 - WS6 or not. Formula, however, was still available as a hardtop in the early LS1 years at least. I can't remember if T-tops became standard for Formula by 2002 or not.
as a camaro and t/a owner i still would take the ws6 hands down, the catfish just looked a little on the plain side to me and the ws6 is a unique car even today with aggressive styling. For whoever said it above the ram air hood can be made functional and quite easily, its not just a looks thing. As far as the panels ive never had door or dash panel cracks on any of my 4 f bodies but i wouldnt say this is normal, more just luck. I agree while the t/a has the headlights that can go out its worth it IMO. As far as power windows its not too big a deal to replace them if you know what your doing. If your getting into an f body of any year you have to understand its not going to be a perfect car and require no work, they all will need work and IMO its no reason to walk away from a ws6 or t/a especially when there really isnt much of a price difference between them and a z28 anymore, at least not in my area.
Old 10-10-2016, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by usnfenix
as a camaro and t/a owner i still would take the ws6 hands down, the catfish just looked a little on the plain side to me and the ws6 is a unique car even today with aggressive styling. For whoever said it above the ram air hood can be made functional and quite easily, its not just a looks thing. As far as the panels ive never had door or dash panel cracks on any of my 4 f bodies but i wouldnt say this is normal, more just luck. I agree while the t/a has the headlights that can go out its worth it IMO. As far as power windows its not too big a deal to replace them if you know what your doing. If your getting into an f body of any year you have to understand its not going to be a perfect car and require no work, they all will need work and IMO its no reason to walk away from a ws6 or t/a especially when there really isnt much of a price difference between them and a z28 anymore, at least not in my area.
When I sold my WS6 TA back in 2004, I was happy to get back into a Camaro. I just prefer Camaro styling, with Formula being a close second. The big spoiler and ground effects of the TA just aren't really my thing, but that's not to say that I don't like them at all. To be clear, I would certainly buy one again, if the right deal on the right car came along (there is actually a local TA that I'm considering right now, but only if the price comes down a bit.) Uniqueness doesn't matter to me either way, I just like the cleaner lines of the Camaro and Formula.

I agree with Firebrian's value assessment. In my region, the TAs are always more expensive than a comparable Camaro; a WS6 car is beyond even that.

You can certainly make the factory WS6 hood much more functional by removing the baffles and sealing the hood to the air box. I bought a really nice kit for that, made by Brian Greene, back in the early 2000s. That kit was top shelf, looked like it came that way from the factory. But, as also mentioned by Firebrian above, any of the aftermarket ram air kits are just as good or better for performance.

I would not recommend for anyone to spend the premium on a WS6 or even SS unless they just like the styling (hood, wheels) - because that's essentially all you're getting for the money. There is no appreciable power difference between any of the trim levels (sans some of the Y2Y options for SS and Firehawk.)
Old 10-10-2016, 09:48 AM
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I had a 99 Z for 13 years, absolutely loved the car! I installed a SLP Ultra-Z hood and really liked it I already had the SLP CAI so I didn't make it functional(Laziness on my part). I had the SLP Under-drive Harmonic balancer but it proved to be junk and made the engine see knock about 4500 RPM, another saga, fought the bubbling roof panel, replaced one window motor, replaced and sealed the tail light assy, re-upholstered the seats(Texas-Arizona Sun ate the sorry leather), 2 water pumps, 1 AC Compressor(what a PITA to change) but overall it was a great car. Traded it for a 2011 SS Camaro....
Old 10-10-2016, 11:10 AM
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It's pretty inexpensive to make the RAM-AIR lid shine. A few seal parts and an airlid cost less than some tires.

I mean, of course YOU know that RPM WS6, but I'm just saying.


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