Downshifting vs. neutral
#21
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Originally Posted by 99BLACKBIRD
Is double clutching rev matching? Or are they two seperate things. I've always heard of double clutching, but never understood what the hell it was. I know about rev matching, it's just the double clutching I'm confused on.
Last edited by Muerte_X; 02-26-2005 at 12:23 AM.
#23
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Originally Posted by C.J.
Anybody ever have any trouble once you put it in nuetral at a light w/ the clutch out and then you go to put it in first w/ the clutch in and it is pretty difficult to get the car back into 1st?
#24
I used to downshift all my life, I was not even aware there were people that did not downshift. Then like a month ago someone posted up this same subject.
So I tried using the neutral method.
I used to get around 280 miles to the tank of fuel downshifting.
I have now went through three 310 + mile tanks by using only brakes to slow down, without any other driving modifications.
Downshifting burns fuel.
So I tried using the neutral method.
I used to get around 280 miles to the tank of fuel downshifting.
I have now went through three 310 + mile tanks by using only brakes to slow down, without any other driving modifications.
Downshifting burns fuel.
#25
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Now im assuming you have an M6. In this case you should go to neutral and use the brakes. DON'T leave the car in gear with the clutch in at a stop this wear out and heats up your Pilot baring...NOT GOOD! Also not good to downshift when slowing down your just putting more un-needed stress on the valvetrain,transmission, and wearing out your clutch faster. Brake are 10X cheaper and easier to replace than all of that other stuff....
#26
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It really depends on my mood....
If I'm zoomin around, I usually downshift, but always rev match to make it a smooth transition...
If I'm lazy, I just pop it in neutral...
Sometimes I'm REALLY lazy and don't use the clutch at all to upshift or downshift
Rick
Aztek T/A WS7 & 70 RAM AIR IV T/A
Moderator @ LS2, FAST LS1, FUELSLUT,
The F-Body Hideout, LS1Turd & ChopperForums
If I'm zoomin around, I usually downshift, but always rev match to make it a smooth transition...
If I'm lazy, I just pop it in neutral...
Sometimes I'm REALLY lazy and don't use the clutch at all to upshift or downshift
Rick
Aztek T/A WS7 & 70 RAM AIR IV T/A
Moderator @ LS2, FAST LS1, FUELSLUT,
The F-Body Hideout, LS1Turd & ChopperForums
#29
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Why would you want to put added negative stress on your drivetrain by downshifting? Now not only are you putting positive (moving forward) stress but u're also putting negative (holding back) stress. I'm not against downshifting, I just don't see a reason to doing it when you can more easily throw it into neutral and use brakes that cost much less.
#31
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If you can downshift properly (i.e. rev match) then you will put absolutely no more stress on the car than you would if you used the brakes. Think about the amount of stress braking puts on the suspension. Doesn't matter how you stop...stopping means reducing speed, and to reduce speed you have to turn that energy of movement into some other form of energy...no matter how you do it you are stressing something. You could say that you would prefer to replace the brakes than the clutch, but even a clutch used by a constant downshifter will last upwards of 30k miles. Braking all the time means you are replacing your brakes at least every 10k miles. Good pads on all four corners plus rotor resurfacing will easily cost you $100+, and that's if you do the installation yourself. So in 30k miles you can replace the brakes at least three times at $100 each...that's $300, or buy a new clutch, which if I remember correctly isn't even $300 (unless you do what most people do and upgrade). So the wear and tear difference is negligeable, the price difference is negligeable, and the gas mileage difference is a matter of the area you drive in (I get the same no matter if I downshift or brake), so do what you love to do.
#32
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Stress on the drivetrain from downshifting?? Only if one can't match RPM to speed! If you have ever accelerated with full throttle from 0 to whatever just to see how quickly she goes, I think you have put more stress than a lifetime of downshifting done correctly.... have fun as others have suggested and don't worry about it.
As far as in neutral at rest, you betcha!.....throw out bearing leads a tough life as it is.......take the pressure off of it and leave it in neutral!
More importantly, do you drive with your hand resting on the shifter?? Don't do it, it wears on the tranny inside............
As far as in neutral at rest, you betcha!.....throw out bearing leads a tough life as it is.......take the pressure off of it and leave it in neutral!
More importantly, do you drive with your hand resting on the shifter?? Don't do it, it wears on the tranny inside............
#33
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Originally Posted by Blakbird24
If you can downshift properly (i.e. rev match) then you will put absolutely no more stress on the car than you would if you used the brakes. Think about the amount of stress braking puts on the suspension. Doesn't matter how you stop...stopping means reducing speed, and to reduce speed you have to turn that energy of movement into some other form of energy...no matter how you do it you are stressing something. You could say that you would prefer to replace the brakes than the clutch, but even a clutch used by a constant downshifter will last upwards of 30k miles. Braking all the time means you are replacing your brakes at least every 10k miles. Good pads on all four corners plus rotor resurfacing will easily cost you $100+, and that's if you do the installation yourself. So in 30k miles you can replace the brakes at least three times at $100 each...that's $300, or buy a new clutch, which if I remember correctly isn't even $300 (unless you do what most people do and upgrade). So the wear and tear difference is negligeable, the price difference is negligeable, and the gas mileage difference is a matter of the area you drive in (I get the same no matter if I downshift or brake), so do what you love to do.
Actually unless you rev match perfectly (know the exact speed to rev to) then you are putting stress on it, bottom line. However, a shift to neutral creates no unnecessary negative stress. And you can't really compare brake stress to engine stress. If your brakes wear out quickly, about all you have to do is replace the pads, possibly turn the rotors. If you put more wear on the drivetrain than necessary, there are many more parts in there to wear out and cost a lot more to replace. But, on the topic of brake pads... I rarely ever downshift and rely on my brakes constantly. The last change of pads was 15k miles ago and they have 1/2 pad left. So I think those numbers are a bit skewed, but I def agree that you should just do whatever you love to do. Not much else to it. And don't get me wrong, I def abuse many parts on my car every once in a while... you don't buy an F-body to take it easy on em Everyone has arguments to either, it's just a matter of knowing all the components that are affected by your conscious/unconscious driving efforts.
#34
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I always downshift and with 87k on the stock clutch on the 01 Z,it must not be hurting it too bad. (knock on wood) I just love the sound, and being that it is very loud, it is very intimidating.
#36
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Downshifting: also see referance ... burning candle at both ends....
double clutching: If you are driving a semi truck then continue... if you are driving a car then stop watching vin deisel movies...
those that said you should be in gear at a light because you might have to accelerate to avoid a wreck.... so.... what if you have to quickly go in reverse? read:just as likely.
also see:mute point.
those of you that said go ahead and down shift all the time ,siting reason clutch replacement is part of life.... please see : death is going to happen to everyone too... so following your logic, you should play russian roulete everyday, cause what the hell your gonna die anyway .... wuss
it sounds "intimidating"? to who?
rev matching: see, less "initial" strain. not NO strain...
perfect rev matching: unless your foot is calibrated, then you cant do it. stop lieing to yourself...
..........next..........
double clutching: If you are driving a semi truck then continue... if you are driving a car then stop watching vin deisel movies...
those that said you should be in gear at a light because you might have to accelerate to avoid a wreck.... so.... what if you have to quickly go in reverse? read:just as likely.
also see:mute point.
those of you that said go ahead and down shift all the time ,siting reason clutch replacement is part of life.... please see : death is going to happen to everyone too... so following your logic, you should play russian roulete everyday, cause what the hell your gonna die anyway .... wuss
it sounds "intimidating"? to who?
rev matching: see, less "initial" strain. not NO strain...
perfect rev matching: unless your foot is calibrated, then you cant do it. stop lieing to yourself...
..........next..........
#37
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More importantly, do you drive with your hand resting on the shifter?? Don't do it, it wears on the tranny inside............[/QUOTE]
I always drive with my hand on the shifter....I didn't know that it was bad for the transmission! Can you please explain how it is bad? Thanks
I always drive with my hand on the shifter....I didn't know that it was bad for the transmission! Can you please explain how it is bad? Thanks
#38
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Originally Posted by jaberwaki
...those of you that said go ahead and down shift all the time ,siting reason clutch replacement is part of life.... please see : death is going to happen to everyone too... so following your logic, you should play russian roulete everyday, cause what the hell your gonna die anyway ....
#40
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It ocurred to me today while I was bored at work that i've been in a conversation much like this before, however I had not thought of it when I made my first post in this thread. Here is where the original conversation was...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/road-racing/166538-downshifting-technique-question.html
Downshifting with rev matching (or "sync-shifting" as i've always heard it referred to) will put little to no wear on anything. Done without rev matching it's murderous on your clutch. HOWEVER, as you will learn in the above thread, braking and not downshifting when coming to a stop is hard on the synchros. So basically, the bottom line is, you're going to wear SOMETHING out by coming to a stop. Who wants to argue that you should never some to a stop?
Once again: double clutching is not USELESS with the T56...however it is 99% a waste of time on up-shifts, and is counter-productive in drag racing. However it is very useful for Autocrossers and the like when downshifting to keep traction in turns (as illustrated in the above thread).
Hopefully this info has helped answer the original question.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/road-racing/166538-downshifting-technique-question.html
Downshifting with rev matching (or "sync-shifting" as i've always heard it referred to) will put little to no wear on anything. Done without rev matching it's murderous on your clutch. HOWEVER, as you will learn in the above thread, braking and not downshifting when coming to a stop is hard on the synchros. So basically, the bottom line is, you're going to wear SOMETHING out by coming to a stop. Who wants to argue that you should never some to a stop?
Once again: double clutching is not USELESS with the T56...however it is 99% a waste of time on up-shifts, and is counter-productive in drag racing. However it is very useful for Autocrossers and the like when downshifting to keep traction in turns (as illustrated in the above thread).
Hopefully this info has helped answer the original question.
Last edited by Blakbird24; 03-02-2005 at 09:52 PM.