projected vs non-projected plugs
01-27-2010, 09:09 PM
#121
I tune quite a few of these LSx cars myself and I do like a non projected plug for nitrous apps but the TR6 is not at all a "bad" plug for these things. I know they arent as good as say a BR6 or 7 but they still arent going to blow a head/cam stock bottom LS1 on a 150 shot either if it's tuned right. The run in my sig is a 6.0L LQ4 with stock 5.3 heads with LS1 valves using TR6's on a NX shark nozzle wet 150 shot. The plugs looked awsome so I use them. I'm sure I could gain a little more safety with a colder plug or a non-projected plug but the tune was also taken into consideration with using the TR6 as well. I'm not running it any richer to be safe cause thats not the right way and sometimes richer can be worse than lean. I like to keep my afr leaner than alot of people like in the mid 12's, then control the heat with the timing. From my experiences these LSx motors don't like rich afr mixtures on spray. I did have quite a bit of timing pulled and worked my way up to where I'm at now. I'm running right at 22.5-23* timing on that setup. I started out right around 20. The car picked up some good mph by adding the timing to where it is now. Seems like alot compared to alot of setups but the 5.3 heads arent that efficient and thats why I think it likes a little more timing than a normal LS6 headed engine.
Not really arguing with you all cause there are alot of good tips in this thread but I'm just stating that the TR6's arent nearly as bad as what everyone in this thread are portraying them to be. But for someone that doesn't tune there own car and has a good knowledge of whats going on then by all means a non-projected plug in the correct heat range will add some safety factor to the setup. I'm going to try the BR7's in this car this spring to see how it reacts. I'm hoping I can get a little more aggressive with the tuneup and pull my trap speeds up and ET down some more on the same shot.
Not really arguing with you all cause there are alot of good tips in this thread but I'm just stating that the TR6's arent nearly as bad as what everyone in this thread are portraying them to be. But for someone that doesn't tune there own car and has a good knowledge of whats going on then by all means a non-projected plug in the correct heat range will add some safety factor to the setup. I'm going to try the BR7's in this car this spring to see how it reacts. I'm hoping I can get a little more aggressive with the tuneup and pull my trap speeds up and ET down some more on the same shot.
Robert
01-27-2010, 09:39 PM
#122
I dont plan on spraying more than 100-125 shot in the near future. Thats until the funds become available for the fuel system upgrades and stall. So Im perfectly content with the 75-125 shot range for this season and possibly next. Again this is just a sleeper street car... My main concern is getting familiar with the setup, getting the tune right, and not blowing anything up! Thanks for the input guys. Mike, I have been reading the install manuals for the dry plate/interface/microedge like it's a bible. Been doing a little here and there as far as the install goes. I have been nothing but impressed with how well this setup is put together. Hurry up spring lol!
Robert
01-28-2010, 07:48 PM
#124
James, I respect your opinion on this but the fact is that a TR6 is not intended to be a nitrous plug. I never said that your **** will instantly blow up if you ran them. Hell, I have ran them in the past but there is no way in hell I would run them in your setup. You are asking for trouble. Especially if you are leaning it out like you say. I'm not talking about what the wideband says, I'm talking about the plugs. If you are reading the plugs properly and really running it lean with 22.5-23* on a 150 shot then your plugs are on borrowed time IMO.
Like I said, I trust your tuning abilities and I know that you know what you are doing, I'd just hate to see you hurt your new setup. If you are just going off what your wideband is telling you then you are leaving ALOT on the table. Just my .02
Like I said, I trust your tuning abilities and I know that you know what you are doing, I'd just hate to see you hurt your new setup. If you are just going off what your wideband is telling you then you are leaving ALOT on the table. Just my .02
01-28-2010, 08:04 PM
#125
We run a direct port and you would not believe the difference from #1 cyl. to #7 or 8 cyl.
I doubt all your plugs look good. Hell all of our plugs dont look good most times.
We pull every plug every pass so I have seen ALOT of plugs in the past 3 years.
I'd like to see pics of these TR6 plugs that "good" or "fine" or "OK"
If your using a TR6 on a 150 shot H/C car I bet you dont know what your looking at to even say that wether or not its "good"
Right so using the right plug will let you put the right tune up in the car and it will go faster and ET better..... Novel idea.
I doubt all your plugs look good. Hell all of our plugs dont look good most times.
We pull every plug every pass so I have seen ALOT of plugs in the past 3 years.
I'd like to see pics of these TR6 plugs that "good" or "fine" or "OK"
If your using a TR6 on a 150 shot H/C car I bet you dont know what your looking at to even say that wether or not its "good"
Right so using the right plug will let you put the right tune up in the car and it will go faster and ET better..... Novel idea.
I can defineatly tell you none of my TR6's have ever looked like the pictures above!!
I agree with what you say, and feel we have also said the same prior. Yes the TR6 can work fine, and many of us that don't like them have run them numerous times. the real issue, as you have covered again, is if something goes wrong in the tune it will be the TR6 that become the blow torch. Your approach to tuning is a good one, however, at 23° of timing and a TR6 I truly believe that to be pushing it, just my opinion, and of course burning up a perfectly good ls6 with 22/24° and the TR6 plays a roll in that opinion, LOL.
Robert
Robert
I can say that when I'm spraying anymore I will run a non-projected plug just because of this. It's like flirting with fire using the TR6 plugs but I've had good luck with them reguardless. The tune is where it's all at for each particular setup and yes plugs will change the setup and allow you to be more aggressive than others would.
01-28-2010, 08:47 PM
#126
Where was the timing mark at on the TR6's when you were spraying 150 and had 22-23* in it?
Honestly If it were mine i wouldn't get any more aggresive with the timing even when you do switch to a nn projected tip plug. I'd probably pull another degree or two to start off with then make a pass and see where the timing mark is at. Just my .02
Honestly If it were mine i wouldn't get any more aggresive with the timing even when you do switch to a nn projected tip plug. I'd probably pull another degree or two to start off with then make a pass and see where the timing mark is at. Just my .02
01-28-2010, 09:00 PM
#127
The mark was a little under the bend and has no signs of detonation. That is a little more aggressive than most people like really but I think I had the fueling and timing nailed to the T for it to work like it did. I will more than likely do what you are saying and start back off down in the 19/20* range on the new plugs and adjust the fueling and timing accordingly. These 5.3 heads have really been different on this car being a dished piston and a small chamber head, for whatever reason it liked the higher timing, the only thing I can think of is the chamber design isn't nearly as efficient as an LS6 or the like.
I'm going to try the BR7's in it first time Clay City opens back up. My ultimate goal is to drive the car better... my shifting was way off key in that 10.9 pass.
I'm going to try the BR7's in it first time Clay City opens back up. My ultimate goal is to drive the car better... my shifting was way off key in that 10.9 pass.
01-28-2010, 10:04 PM
#128
This is where someone is going to misquote me, or say well you say this then you say that. For a primarily street car that will only be spraying a small shot once in a while the TR6 is the better plug. Why on earth would I now say that? The extended tip plug is a better street plug is the reason. The LSx in n/a form is designed to use the extended tip plugs. As Mike pointed out, the small shots do fine with a TR6. The reason for that is this, the cylinder pressure increase is small enough that we likely will not turn the extended tip plug into a blow torch. Bottom line, you guys need to just sift thru the info and if you can't decide what is best for your set-up, call one of the vendors and explain your plans (Mike and Nick @ HSW would be my choice as the site's premier plug guys). They will help. I also run the Dry plate, Interface, MicroEdge and believe it to be a great street/strip set-up.
Robert
Robert
03-02-2010, 12:15 AM
#130
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They look OK mixture nice, but i'd go one step colder the black part of the strap finishes closer to the thread should be half way any more timing in this and would not be good. i had issues with tr6s in blown engines in high temp climates non projected 7s fixed it, the plugs look much better too IMO non projected 7s for 100 shot. Ive never had them foul either in any car.
03-02-2010, 02:07 AM
#131
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You can DD a BR8EFS plug there is a thread where a guy dynoed his car and made no difference between TR6 and stock. TR6 are a good NA plug for high comp engine I know guys that spray on them , I used them for a long time I ran very rich afrs once and very low timing, plugs gapped etc I had some misfire once pulled the plug and the black part of the strap was pretty well not there and mph down plus it was rich yet no signs of detonation just an overheated plug, I pulled fuel out put a set of BR7EFS in and put some timing back in and they looked much better I could have easily ran 8s at the track but 7s were great. All the stuff in fouling and that is BS I have never fouled a plug just overheated it! its hard to with modern efi and good tuning. It also doesn't matter how rich the mix is or low the timing or how good the tunes Anothr tuner said that to me one i could have thrown a pineapple at him lol. Nooo idea. Anyway the colder plugs cools better in hotter chamber that simple. I wish i still had my plugs to post up!
Last edited by hymey; 03-02-2010 at 02:18 AM.
03-02-2010, 10:54 AM
#132
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You can DD a BR8EFS plug there is a thread where a guy dynoed his car and made no difference between TR6 and stock. TR6 are a good NA plug for high comp engine I know guys that spray on them , I used them for a long time I ran very rich afrs once and very low timing, plugs gapped etc I had some misfire once pulled the plug and the black part of the strap was pretty well not there and mph down plus it was rich yet no signs of detonation just an overheated plug, I pulled fuel out put a set of BR7EFS in and put some timing back in and they looked much better I could have easily ran 8s at the track but 7s were great. All the stuff in fouling and that is BS I have never fouled a plug just overheated it! its hard to with modern efi and good tuning. It also doesn't matter how rich the mix is or low the timing or how good the tunes Anothr tuner said that to me one i could have thrown a pineapple at him lol. Nooo idea. Anyway the colder plugs cools better in hotter chamber that simple. I wish i still had my plugs to post up!
03-02-2010, 11:16 AM
#133
Guys, when I buy plugs I buy them 100 plugs at a time. Yeah it sucks to drop 200 on spark plugs, but it is what it is.
My plate (Nos) doesn't distribute perfect, and none of them do, I pull the #7 EVERY pass and will usually pull #8 and other random plugs after every pass, any time I make a jet change I always click the car off and coast to the return road, pull every one and slap a set of used ones in the car just to get it back to the pits, then put in fresh ones there.
This way I can look at every one and make sure there's no signs of trouble anywhere. I've yet to even come close, tune is still on the rich side... but at the end of last season it was starting to get cleaned up a bit, and the car was getting faster every trip because of it.
ATV's right, the front and back of the motor run different, I think it's cooling system related but I may have a solution to that, we'll see when I get it back together (going to put something together like what Kurt did for venting at all 4 corners) and see if that helps, I suspect that it will help some.
Intake flow also has alot to do with it, difference from a single plate to a stock style, to a different single plane makes a big difference, and that's why you need to start small, and work your way up.
Pita to have to buy all the DP jets.. and I wish I could just start off with a healthy size hit, but I am not going to chance it. First set will be a 26/22, 2nd will probably be a 28/24, then a set of 30's to put a 30/26 in, then a 32/28, 34/30, 36/32, 38/34 and finally, a 40/36. I think that's what it is gonna take to go as fast as I'll have to on a single kit. I will be progressing, start off at as much as the track will take and have it all in within .4 at the MOST.
Should be interesting, I figure by the time I get to the 40 jet I'll be at negative timing in every hole at that point.... not sure how that's gonna work, but we will see. I may, even drop the compression some, to try to help that situation.
My plate (Nos) doesn't distribute perfect, and none of them do, I pull the #7 EVERY pass and will usually pull #8 and other random plugs after every pass, any time I make a jet change I always click the car off and coast to the return road, pull every one and slap a set of used ones in the car just to get it back to the pits, then put in fresh ones there.
This way I can look at every one and make sure there's no signs of trouble anywhere. I've yet to even come close, tune is still on the rich side... but at the end of last season it was starting to get cleaned up a bit, and the car was getting faster every trip because of it.
ATV's right, the front and back of the motor run different, I think it's cooling system related but I may have a solution to that, we'll see when I get it back together (going to put something together like what Kurt did for venting at all 4 corners) and see if that helps, I suspect that it will help some.
Intake flow also has alot to do with it, difference from a single plate to a stock style, to a different single plane makes a big difference, and that's why you need to start small, and work your way up.
Pita to have to buy all the DP jets.. and I wish I could just start off with a healthy size hit, but I am not going to chance it. First set will be a 26/22, 2nd will probably be a 28/24, then a set of 30's to put a 30/26 in, then a 32/28, 34/30, 36/32, 38/34 and finally, a 40/36. I think that's what it is gonna take to go as fast as I'll have to on a single kit. I will be progressing, start off at as much as the track will take and have it all in within .4 at the MOST.
Should be interesting, I figure by the time I get to the 40 jet I'll be at negative timing in every hole at that point.... not sure how that's gonna work, but we will see. I may, even drop the compression some, to try to help that situation.
04-04-2010, 01:11 AM
#134
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6 and 8 run lean on my engine 7 also, front cylinders run rich, So what you end up with is straps with different colour patterns front cylinders are showing plug is colder and showing later peak cyl pressure, rear cylinders show engine is leaner, earlier peak cyl pressure more prone to detonation. Tune to the lean cylinders and work with them rather then chasing an average across all 8.
I read some interesting stuff on the mixture ring. I always used this on jetting dirt bikes. I have found esp on LS1s that the rings always look rich when tuned to maximum hp. ie if I tune to a correct colour ring I would be in the mid 13s afr and the car would be down on timing and tq, if i run more timing I creep into detonation, adding more fuel and timing power comes back, plugs look good on the strap. I have not tried going to a colder plug(in na app) to get a better looking plug where i may be able to run it leaner without having to high cyl temps to induce detonation. With pump fuels it is good to read your plugs but the dyno doesn't lie finding best power. Using some of the guidelines mentioned for reading plugs sometimes doesn't work out so well due to so many variances across cylinders, which puts into perspective how important it is to have the correct heat range plug before you start tuning. I really think colder is better in these motors with the correct tune.
I read some interesting stuff on the mixture ring. I always used this on jetting dirt bikes. I have found esp on LS1s that the rings always look rich when tuned to maximum hp. ie if I tune to a correct colour ring I would be in the mid 13s afr and the car would be down on timing and tq, if i run more timing I creep into detonation, adding more fuel and timing power comes back, plugs look good on the strap. I have not tried going to a colder plug(in na app) to get a better looking plug where i may be able to run it leaner without having to high cyl temps to induce detonation. With pump fuels it is good to read your plugs but the dyno doesn't lie finding best power. Using some of the guidelines mentioned for reading plugs sometimes doesn't work out so well due to so many variances across cylinders, which puts into perspective how important it is to have the correct heat range plug before you start tuning. I really think colder is better in these motors with the correct tune.
04-14-2010, 12:44 AM
#135
A little update on my setup... I switched from the TR6's to some BR7EF(3346) plugs and on the same jets ran a 10.57@131 back to back... thats up from last year's setup running 10.91@128
The only change to the tune was I pulled some more timing to start off with and was only running 19.5-20.0 degrees at peak torque (4400-5000) and had it ramping up with RPM to 21.5-22.0 degrees by redline. Basically it was 2.5 degree's less timing on these plugs than with the TR6's on the 10.9 pass. It really loved it with picking up ET and trap speed! So def go with a non-projected tip plug because motors seeing nitrous really love it! The timing mark on the plugs were just about perfect as well. This was all on 93 octane fuel as well.
The next week I put a good amount of 110oct in the tank and went ahead and bumped the timing back up 2 degree's to see how that would work and never got any clean passes due to some other issues but from the plug's readings when it did spray it didn't like the timing so I backed it back down to the proven tuneup.
The only change to the tune was I pulled some more timing to start off with and was only running 19.5-20.0 degrees at peak torque (4400-5000) and had it ramping up with RPM to 21.5-22.0 degrees by redline. Basically it was 2.5 degree's less timing on these plugs than with the TR6's on the 10.9 pass. It really loved it with picking up ET and trap speed! So def go with a non-projected tip plug because motors seeing nitrous really love it! The timing mark on the plugs were just about perfect as well. This was all on 93 octane fuel as well.
The next week I put a good amount of 110oct in the tank and went ahead and bumped the timing back up 2 degree's to see how that would work and never got any clean passes due to some other issues but from the plug's readings when it did spray it didn't like the timing so I backed it back down to the proven tuneup.
06-17-2010, 07:56 AM
#137
I'm running a 150 shot. Should i be running the BR7EF or will a TR6 be ok? I've ran the TR6's before and the BR7EF's (in the car now) I thought the car felt different with the BR7EF's driving around town vs. the TR6. My car doesn't get sprayed that often, maybe a few times a month and i do more intown driving/cruising. Would i be fine with the TR6's?
06-19-2010, 03:44 AM
#139
I'll add that some people on here say you can drive around on the non projected BR7's and BR8's, I totally agree with that but my personal car is tuned to the 't' and after around 2k miles on a set of BR7EF's the car will start to run rough and lose fuel mileage. So I don't know what magic juice you guy's are putting in the tanks of your rides but I would run a projected tip TR55 or TR6 on the street and switch to the non-projected for track and nitrous use.
06-19-2010, 09:37 AM
#140
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I used to street drive my car with non projected tr8 plugs in it. Ran fine idled fine and never fouled a plug. But of course for tuning purposes it got a fresh set at the track. It's all in the tune. Why risk a piston over a spark plug?