Footlead

iTrader: (18)

What should you set the spark retard rate to on the LNC 2000?? I am just using the box to pull some timing but unsure on where to set the Spark Retard rate.

Thanks

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Can you data log you're runs?

Footlead

iTrader: (18)

No ----can not

good2go

General rule is 2 to 3 degrees per every 50 shot. I'm pulling 4 degrees for a 100 shot.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Only reason I asked is because you would want to have all your timing pulled out by the rpm that the stall converter locks up at and stops flashing rpm wise.

How ever long that takes in seconds or tenths of seconds you could pull up your data log and see where the car flashes to rpm wise and where it begins to move MPH wise and determine how many seconds it takes to do that.

That's how I would do it.

Footlead

iTrader: (18)

Makes sense Martin. Good2go---that wasnt the question...RATE+++ not how much..got that covered...there is a rate adjuster on the LNC 2000 in seconds as well as how many degrees of timing you want to pull out.

good2go

I can see pulling timing gradually for boost, but why for nitrous? When it comes on, its fully on, and so should your retard.

sky

True indeed. I have the same timing retard moudle on both of my cars. Set the rate @ 0. If not yo will most def. detonate. The rate slows down how long you want the moudle to delay b4 it actually starts pulling timing. In a nitrous app. you want the timing pulled when you spray instanly. Hope this helps. :-)

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Ok, let's clear this up.

Yes Nitrous comes on instantly when not using a progressive.

BUT if you want the most out of your set-up you won't pull all the timing at once in one big chunk, that is if you can still gain traction.

When you have a stall converter with a higher than stock and in most people's cases on this site around 3600-4000rpm when you floor your car the car does not move until around 3600-4000rpm and the converter does not fully "lock up" and stop flashing till around 4500-5000rpm in most people's cases on this web site.

When this flash of rpm happens your car isn't seeing all of your engines power output to the rear tires and will be faster if you do not pull the full amount of timing for your amount of nitrous until it does and the converter fully locks up.

Camscam, myself and COUNTLESS other racers use this method because it works and it's faster than just pulling timing out at once and having the car be a dog with a tight nitrous stall until it completely locks up at a higher rpm.

I don't pull any timing on my car until 4800rpm and I set my two step at 3400rpm and nitrous to come on a 3400rpm. My stall flashes 5400-5500 on launch and doesn't lock up fully until 5600-5800rpm.

I pull 2* at 4800, 8* at 5200, 10* at 5600 and 12* at 6000rpm. I pull 12* for the shot size I am running so I have it all out by the time the converter locks up.

If the car can handle it traction wise this is the best way to pull timing out of the car.

Can't knock it until you try it You said it yourself, "Yea do it for boost because it comes in gradually, but not nitrous." Well I explained that even though the nitrous comes on at once, the power isn't fully transferred from the engine to the driveshaft and to the tires since the fluid coupling device in between the two(converter) hasn't allowed it yet so there isn't full load on the motor until it does. So it does come in gradually

good2go

I follow what you're saying but I pull timing to ensure there's no detonation, not for traction. When the nitrous hits all at once that's when you're likely to have problems even though with your convertor isn't putting full power to the wheels the engine is producing it all with the chance for detonation. I have stock non-forged pistons and don't want to pop it, therefore: nitrous on, timing pulled.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

You're not following what I am saying.

When the converter is not locked up fully there is not any load on your motor! No load means no cylinder pressure! No cylinder pressure means no chance of detonation!

I run stock pistons also!

The engine can't produce cylinder pressure without load on the motor! Load=heat, no load=no heat.

Anyways...that's not what this thread is about.

Jason Haines @ LPE

The spark retard RATE switch/dial on the LNC-2000 does not set the delay before the retard is active. The timing retard starts to occur as soon as the +12volt activation wire is triggered by an external source (via the Orange retard activation wire). When the timing retard is being done in Time based mode (versus boost retard mode that uses the MAP sensor input which is normally used for boosted applications), the RATE dial sets the spark retard build time or ramp rate.

The dial is a 16 position switch. The first half of the switch is as follows:

Retard build time settings 0 – 7.
Hold and Wait retard. Retard goes on/off with activation but build timer does NOT reset (so if you activate, deactivate and the re-activate the timing retard, it continues back where it left off in the ramp). Good for drag strip with nitrous.
Position......Rate
0...............Retard is immediate.
1.............. 0.2 second (retard build time)
2.............. 0.4 second
3.............. 0.6 second
4.............. 0.8 second
5.............. 1.0 second
6............. 2.0 seconds
7............. 3.0 seconds

Retard build time settings 8 – E.
Retard and build timer will reset any time the activation signal is removed and re-applied.
Position......Rate
8.............. 0.2 second (retard build time)
9.............. 0.4 second
A.............. 0.6 second
B............. 0 .8 second
C.............. 1.0 second
D............. 2.0 seconds
E............. 3.0 seconds

The final switch setting, F, is used for external control of the LNC-2000 timing retard.
F............ Linear Mode

The total amount of possible retard is then set by the Max Retard switch setting.

To quote the instruction manual:
The retard Rate setting controls how quickly the controller goes to the amount of timing retard set with the Max Retard switch. For example, if you have the Max Retard switch set to 10 degrees and you have the Rate switch set to 1 second, after 0.5 seconds you will have 5 degrees of retard and it will take one second to build up to the full 10 degrees of retard.

This can be used to provide progressive timing retard if you have a progressive nitrous system or to have more timing ramp in later in the run if you have multiple stages of nitrous.

If you want the timing retard to all be taken out as soon as the activation wire is triggered then, yes, you would want the rate to be set at the 0 switch position.

Footlead

iTrader: (18)

Thanks for the comments Martin !! @ Jason---what you put out is exactly what the instructions say on the box I purchased from yall. THE QUEstion is If i am spraying 100 shot on a stock long block with bolt-ons what would be the rate I should use in a drag racing application on a street car. I am confused on where to set it. I have it on ZERO now but thought the rate could improve traction/performance possibly like Martin was saying. Jason explained it but I still do not understand what he told me. For my application I need advice on where to set the retard rate to improve performance......or maybe that will not improve performance so I need to just leave it at zero. I am mentally challenged sometimes on electronics so you will need to dumb it down for me. Thanks for the help.

camscam02

iTrader: (21)

Leave it at zero. Most people need it taken out at the hit. The more you figure out the combo and the more information you have on your car, you can start to mess with ramps in and out. Most people will never see gains from ramping. Just keep it simple

good2go

Not true. If you are accelerating ... there's load. Maybe not as much, but it is loaded. I would say there is more load than you think, you are using the power of the engine to spin up the torque convertor. Also that only applies to the N/A portion of the load, the load applied by the nitrous is all there as soon as the solenoids open, all of it.

Jason Haines @ LPE

I would agree. If you are not sure, set it at zero (no ramp rate).

It is safer to start with all the timing taken out right away. As you learn your combination and do testing, then you can determine if you need to make changes.

If you are ramping in the nitrous or have multiple stages of nitrous and want to vary the amount of timing retard vs time, then you would use the ramp rate. It also depends how much timing you are taking out. Ramping to 2 or 3 degrees is probably pointless - you probably wouldn't notice the difference. On the other hand if you need to take out 15 degrees then a 15 degree timing change instantly is a big difference especially with the relatively small amount of timing LS type cylinder heads usually want compared to some of the older cylinder heads. With a nitrous system that delivers enough nitrous that needs that big a timing change, you probably aren't getting 100% of the nitrous right away - it probably takes a few ms to build up and get to the engine so you might want to soften the timing retard hit and ramp it in over how ever long it takes to get up to the full nitrous amount.

Especially with nitrous systems, you want to test everything to make sure your system is working how you want it to/need it to. Different solenoids behave differently as do many of the other components in the system and then you start changing variables like temperature, nitrous pressure etc. and it gets even more complicated. Start with the basics and then test and document every change.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

For however many thousandths of a second when the converter flashes there is NO LOAD on the engine.

As the converter locks up and grabs and begins to pull that is where load starts!

It is a fluid coupling device.

So you're saying when you rev your motor up in N there is load on the engine? NO! It's the same theory, it's just like being in neutral until the converter grabs.

For the .000003 seconds that you don't retard the timing it's going to detonate with no load on the motor?

I feel like I am beating a dead horse here. I've done my timing this way for months and others have done it for years with NO detonation. Anyways you're a dead horse that I am beating.

For the majority of the people on this site just pull it all out at once, but if you're looking to get the most out of your car like IMO everyone should do, then you need to start looking at other ways to do it. I do pull 12* out for my nitrous so I am pulling a lot of timing, and with a tight stall converter that needs that timing to flash like it should this is how it should be done. I guess the fact that I've been nearly 5 seconds in the 1/8th mile with a repeatable 1.29 60' with this method means nothing.

good2go

Still gotta disagree. Your car will accelerate before reaching the stall speed of the convertor, so there is load. If there was no load (like in neutral) the car wouldn't move. If it was how you say, why would you worry about having timing pulled for .000003 too soon anyway?

I may be a dead horse, but this ain't my first rodeo. I started using nitrous back in 1978 and haven't blown a motor with it yet. I pull timing to avoid detonation and I pull it all out when the nitrous hits, just like Jason recommends.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Good for you and him. How fast have you been?

The car doesn't move until the final flash point of the stall is reached!!! You have obviously never looked at a data log of a car with a nitrous stall or ANY aftermarket stall to say this! Why do you think you can footbrake a 4000 stall converter to 3800rpm before the car moves??? BECAUSE THERE IS NO LOAD and the stall has not "locked up" yet or begun to "lock up" until that rpm and then the car moves and tries to push through the brakes!

The data log will show the RPM you have the two step set at, say 3200rpm, then when I release the trans brake the motor's rpm flashes to 5400 rpm YET THE CAR DOESN'T MOVE!!! It does not move until 5600rpm!!! Then around 5800rpm it finally grabs(locks up) and accelerates the car! It will show ZERO MPH until 5800rpm where the MPH will finally begin to rise off of ZERO!

You just said it yourself why worry about it, because it's such a small period of time....because it WON'T DETONATE.

You're showing ignorance here because you've never tuned a car with a stall converter obviously and seen the data log where the car will not move until the maximum stall speed is reached and the converter grabs and locks up!

Case in point listen to my video of this run. You hear the two step limiting engine rpm, then you hear the stall flash as the nitrous comes on and the car moves. It happens in such a split second that there is no chance in that short *** period of time that the motor can detonate. I do it because it's the difference between a 1.36 60' and a 1.29 60'. It works, and you can't knock something you obviously know nothing about.

Sure detonated there huh?

good2go

Absolutely NOT TRUE. Give a car with a 4,000 rpm stall convertor a little gas, say 2,000 rpm, it'll move (if your foot is off the brake that is). To say that it won't is astonishingly stupid.

I say this from experience because I HAVE tuned and raced with aftermarket trannys and stall convertors. They will transmit power before the stall speed.