Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems?
01-23-2003, 03:07 PM
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Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? Im doing some dyno work on a heads/cam/all bolt-on's C5 auto vette.
Its making 387 rwhp through the A4. It has a nitrous friendly grind cam in it @ 114 as well.
On a 200 rwhp NX shot it usually makes only 500 rwhp and on a few dyno pulls in the past weve seen 535 rwhp (once). We see alot of what looks like knock retard because suddenly power will drop 20-30 rwhp at approx 5800+ rpm.
we have a dedicated fuel system running 110 octane in the fuel cell and running 91 in the tank of the car. The car is pulling 11.8-12.1 A/F ratios on the wideband.
We want 550-575 rwhp out of it, and when we goto the 250 rwhp NX jets, we lose tons of horsepower and the curve goes all over the place with approx 480-500 rwhp. Whats the solution? We were thinking about getting the Ramchargers Timing Tuner box and just pulling out timing. we have tr-6 plugs in it and it randomly starts melting a plug. Weve tried straight 100 octane in the tank with 110 in the fuel cell with some effects.
Timing the problem here? we have a ron zimmer chip in it, so we arent looking to get ls1-edit, we just want to get the nitrous to make the full power it should. The motor is tuned perfect and we just need the adjustments for nitrous use.
Car runs 10.5@ 130 on the 535 rwhp on stock bottom end.
Its making 387 rwhp through the A4. It has a nitrous friendly grind cam in it @ 114 as well.
On a 200 rwhp NX shot it usually makes only 500 rwhp and on a few dyno pulls in the past weve seen 535 rwhp (once). We see alot of what looks like knock retard because suddenly power will drop 20-30 rwhp at approx 5800+ rpm.
we have a dedicated fuel system running 110 octane in the fuel cell and running 91 in the tank of the car. The car is pulling 11.8-12.1 A/F ratios on the wideband.
We want 550-575 rwhp out of it, and when we goto the 250 rwhp NX jets, we lose tons of horsepower and the curve goes all over the place with approx 480-500 rwhp. Whats the solution? We were thinking about getting the Ramchargers Timing Tuner box and just pulling out timing. we have tr-6 plugs in it and it randomly starts melting a plug. Weve tried straight 100 octane in the tank with 110 in the fuel cell with some effects.
Timing the problem here? we have a ron zimmer chip in it, so we arent looking to get ls1-edit, we just want to get the nitrous to make the full power it should. The motor is tuned perfect and we just need the adjustments for nitrous use.
Car runs 10.5@ 130 on the 535 rwhp on stock bottom end.
01-23-2003, 04:21 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? sounds kinda like my problem. on a 100 shot it made 490 and on a 150 it made 505 with a curve that was all over the place.
i am interested to see if anyone chimes in on this. i talked to tony at tnt once and he told me to run the bottle pressure up more and see if that helps out any for my application.
i am interested to see if anyone chimes in on this. i talked to tony at tnt once and he told me to run the bottle pressure up more and see if that helps out any for my application.
01-23-2003, 04:51 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? Ok, update. I just did some more dynoing on the car.
Bottle Pressure is at 1250 psi on a bottle heater.
We put the 200 NX jets in it. It went to 506 rwhp.
We put the 250 NX jets in it. The horsepower curve was perfectly flat and smooth like the 150 and 200 jets. BUT It made 450 rwhp on the 250 jets. It lost 50 horsepower going up from 200 to 250 shot.
The curve looks great and doesnt show problems. Also with the 250 shot the A/F ratio stayed at 12.0-12.5 the entire way.
What can cause the kit to lose 50 horsepower going from 200 to 250????? Can the computer be taking that much timing out of it??
Bottle Pressure is at 1250 psi on a bottle heater.
We put the 200 NX jets in it. It went to 506 rwhp.
We put the 250 NX jets in it. The horsepower curve was perfectly flat and smooth like the 150 and 200 jets. BUT It made 450 rwhp on the 250 jets. It lost 50 horsepower going up from 200 to 250 shot.
The curve looks great and doesnt show problems. Also with the 250 shot the A/F ratio stayed at 12.0-12.5 the entire way.
What can cause the kit to lose 50 horsepower going from 200 to 250????? Can the computer be taking that much timing out of it??
01-23-2003, 05:25 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? Woah...be very careful. You have some detonation/preignition for sure. You will not see that in the AF ratio. I would get the timing tuner before you run again. I would also go to a colder plug. NGK BP7EFS pn 3526 is one step colder than TR6 i believe...but check with NGK to be sure. Definately sounds as though you have fuel covered and the race gas is probably your saving grace right now.
Are you montoring with ATAP or something similiar? What timing are you seeing and how much KR are you seeing? You are definately attempting to walk a tightrope here. Use as many monitoring tools and devices to adjust parameters as possible. As well as take the conservative route first...then step it up when you feel safe.
Are you montoring with ATAP or something similiar? What timing are you seeing and how much KR are you seeing? You are definately attempting to walk a tightrope here. Use as many monitoring tools and devices to adjust parameters as possible. As well as take the conservative route first...then step it up when you feel safe.
01-23-2003, 07:01 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? that again sounds like my setup, we tried the last time i went to get the 150 jets to work for me and hp went way down from the 100 shot.
i really dont want to have to buy a timing tuner now, but i guess if i have to i will. why cant the juice be easier! i guess if it was, there would be alot of 500 rwhp cars running around!
good luck getting it straight man, i feel your pain.
i really dont want to have to buy a timing tuner now, but i guess if i have to i will. why cant the juice be easier! i guess if it was, there would be alot of 500 rwhp cars running around!
good luck getting it straight man, i feel your pain.
01-25-2003, 12:59 AM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? If you plan on spraying that big a shot I would run these plugs <img src="http://images.cardomain.com/installs/217000-217999/217306_20.jpg" alt=" - " /> the one the left. Its got a much fatter ground strap. Its less likly to burn off and cause a hot spot in the chamber for detenation to come into play. Also its a non-resistor plug so its gonna have a hotter spark. Part number is autolite AR472.
Now what I would do is get control of the timing, start low. Maybe something around 20 degree, and bump the timing up 2 degrees until you see the power start to drop again. I would do a plug check after every pull and look very closely to the plugs and look for tiny black specs on the insulators, thats your first sign of detenation. Make sure the bottle pressure is the same everytime also.
Shawn
Now what I would do is get control of the timing, start low. Maybe something around 20 degree, and bump the timing up 2 degrees until you see the power start to drop again. I would do a plug check after every pull and look very closely to the plugs and look for tiny black specs on the insulators, thats your first sign of detenation. Make sure the bottle pressure is the same everytime also.
Shawn
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01-25-2003, 06:17 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? dont feel bad I picked up 70hp with my 200s went from 364 to 434.... i made 506 with the 150s <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
a/f was 17:1
not enough pump <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
a/f was 17:1
not enough pump <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
01-30-2003, 02:19 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? I don't know about dyno numbers, but I took my 01' Z-28 to the track when I had about 8,000 miles on it, completely stock (down to the wheels & tires)with the exception of Eibach lowering springs, and my NX kit. The car was hot because I had been driving it all day(about 4 hours constant). I gave it about a 30 min. rest & just couldn't wait any longer. The first run was 13.6 @ 106, the second run was 13.4 @ 109, 2 runs on the motor, & the third run was the first nos run. It was a 12.4 @ 121 and when I hit third gear I thought the clutch blew up it splipped so bad. I had to let off the gas, of course I slammed the gas back down as soon as I thought the clutch wasn't slipping anymore. The bottle pressure was a little low at about 850-900psi. I was using the 150 shot, I use autolite 103 plugs in the car.
I believe that with a modified car the HP delivered from the same jets would be different, mainly because of the fuel jets. If you put too much fuel in it, it will slow it down, not enough & you get detonation. My mustang has a near 600 HP N/A EFI 408 stroker W/ the same NX kit. When this mustang had a 302 in it, a 150 shot gave it near 150 HP at the rear wheels. Now with the 408 in it, the same jets don't make the same power,mainly because of fuel requirements of the engine, probably as a result of the cam bleeding off cylinder pressure. Most V-8's use a much larger fuel jet than the LS1. I believe this is because the LS1 is more finely tuned (from the factory, ie: timing);however, I have heard that it runs rich - that would explain the smaller fuel jet that it uses. I don't know but I think that it might retard timing for a lean condition also. I'm still trying to figure out this LS1 thing.
I would try using a different set of jets first. If it stays the same then go with a larger fuel jet if the car is modified. If this still doesn't work use smaller jets or less fuel psi
The NX jetting patterns are for stock applications with stock timing, cam, injectors, fuel curve, exhaust, stock everything.
I believe that with a modified car the HP delivered from the same jets would be different, mainly because of the fuel jets. If you put too much fuel in it, it will slow it down, not enough & you get detonation. My mustang has a near 600 HP N/A EFI 408 stroker W/ the same NX kit. When this mustang had a 302 in it, a 150 shot gave it near 150 HP at the rear wheels. Now with the 408 in it, the same jets don't make the same power,mainly because of fuel requirements of the engine, probably as a result of the cam bleeding off cylinder pressure. Most V-8's use a much larger fuel jet than the LS1. I believe this is because the LS1 is more finely tuned (from the factory, ie: timing);however, I have heard that it runs rich - that would explain the smaller fuel jet that it uses. I don't know but I think that it might retard timing for a lean condition also. I'm still trying to figure out this LS1 thing.
I would try using a different set of jets first. If it stays the same then go with a larger fuel jet if the car is modified. If this still doesn't work use smaller jets or less fuel psi
The NX jetting patterns are for stock applications with stock timing, cam, injectors, fuel curve, exhaust, stock everything.
02-03-2003, 04:24 AM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by C4VetteLS1:
<strong> Im doing some dyno work on a heads/cam/all bolt-on's C5 auto vette.
Its making 387 rwhp through the A4. It has a nitrous friendly grind cam in it @ 114 as well.
On a 200 rwhp NX shot it usually makes only 500 rwhp and on a few dyno pulls in the past weve seen 535 rwhp (once). We see alot of what looks like knock retard because suddenly power will drop 20-30 rwhp at approx 5800+ rpm.
we have a dedicated fuel system running 110 octane in the fuel cell and running 91 in the tank of the car. The car is pulling 11.8-12.1 A/F ratios on the wideband.
We want 550-575 rwhp out of it, and when we goto the 250 rwhp NX jets, we lose tons of horsepower and the curve goes all over the place with approx 480-500 rwhp. Whats the solution? We were thinking about getting the Ramchargers Timing Tuner box and just pulling out timing. we have tr-6 plugs in it and it randomly starts melting a plug. Weve tried straight 100 octane in the tank with 110 in the fuel cell with some effects.
Timing the problem here? we have a ron zimmer chip in it, so we arent looking to get ls1-edit, we just want to get the nitrous to make the full power it should. The motor is tuned perfect and we just need the adjustments for nitrous use.
Car runs 10.5@ 130 on the 535 rwhp on stock bottom end. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with 383LQ4 that you are probably at huge risk for detonation. You don't run that large of a shot on normal timing. What is a Ron Zimmer chip? Does it increase your timing advance?
What gap do you have on the plugs? I would gap the TR6s down to 0.35 for that large a shot (or maybe getting new plugs one heat range colder like earlier suggested if you've already gapped them down) and I would also drop the timing down at least 6-8 degrees, possibly more depending on what the Ron Zimmer chip does.
<strong> Im doing some dyno work on a heads/cam/all bolt-on's C5 auto vette.
Its making 387 rwhp through the A4. It has a nitrous friendly grind cam in it @ 114 as well.
On a 200 rwhp NX shot it usually makes only 500 rwhp and on a few dyno pulls in the past weve seen 535 rwhp (once). We see alot of what looks like knock retard because suddenly power will drop 20-30 rwhp at approx 5800+ rpm.
we have a dedicated fuel system running 110 octane in the fuel cell and running 91 in the tank of the car. The car is pulling 11.8-12.1 A/F ratios on the wideband.
We want 550-575 rwhp out of it, and when we goto the 250 rwhp NX jets, we lose tons of horsepower and the curve goes all over the place with approx 480-500 rwhp. Whats the solution? We were thinking about getting the Ramchargers Timing Tuner box and just pulling out timing. we have tr-6 plugs in it and it randomly starts melting a plug. Weve tried straight 100 octane in the tank with 110 in the fuel cell with some effects.
Timing the problem here? we have a ron zimmer chip in it, so we arent looking to get ls1-edit, we just want to get the nitrous to make the full power it should. The motor is tuned perfect and we just need the adjustments for nitrous use.
Car runs 10.5@ 130 on the 535 rwhp on stock bottom end. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with 383LQ4 that you are probably at huge risk for detonation. You don't run that large of a shot on normal timing. What is a Ron Zimmer chip? Does it increase your timing advance?
What gap do you have on the plugs? I would gap the TR6s down to 0.35 for that large a shot (or maybe getting new plugs one heat range colder like earlier suggested if you've already gapped them down) and I would also drop the timing down at least 6-8 degrees, possibly more depending on what the Ron Zimmer chip does.
02-03-2003, 01:48 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? What plugs are you running I don't see them listed?
I'd run TR6's @ .032 for that much spray.
What pump you using for your 2nd fuel system?
I'd take out 4+ degrees of timing for a 250 shot, maybe 6 degrees.
When we messed with HackerJoe's car in 1999, it went 11.49@116mph on a 150 wetshot. We added a 75 dry shot and the car went 11.11@127mph with no other change. Later went 10.81@124mph when we moved the dry nozzle location. I figure the car for NO BETTER than 108mph NA. So to me the car picked up 19mph on spray. He had an inline pump. He later added heads and cam and it really did not pick up. At that point the car was underfueled quite a bit.
I'd run TR6's @ .032 for that much spray.
What pump you using for your 2nd fuel system?
I'd take out 4+ degrees of timing for a 250 shot, maybe 6 degrees.
When we messed with HackerJoe's car in 1999, it went 11.49@116mph on a 150 wetshot. We added a 75 dry shot and the car went 11.11@127mph with no other change. Later went 10.81@124mph when we moved the dry nozzle location. I figure the car for NO BETTER than 108mph NA. So to me the car picked up 19mph on spray. He had an inline pump. He later added heads and cam and it really did not pick up. At that point the car was underfueled quite a bit.
02-04-2003, 02:25 PM
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Re: Only picking up 150 rwhp on a 200 NX wet kit, problems? In looking over the posts there have been a few things that are right on... first when your melting a ground strap off the plug you are detonating... 2 for anyone running nitrous the rule of thumb is 2 deg retard for every 50Hp.. now those of us who have run lots of N20 know this is not absolute... BUT your running a stock bottom end if i read right... you are playing with fire... and let me tell you when it comes apart you will have a long block full of junk.. your doing it right by using good gas and measuring AFR but you are missing 2 major points .. timing control and plug heat range and gaps.. when getting to the 200 hp mark you are now at the next step and have to prepare things correctly or they will go wrong quickly... you are loosing power right now due to detonation and the plug not being able to fire due to the wrong heat range or most likely the gap with the new found cyl pressure... if you can't fire it doesn't matter how much n2o or fuel you add it won't make more power...
The timing computer is necessary right now.. or make the ECM program reflect lower timing which will reflect lower NA performance.. keep in mind to MOST aftermarket tuners ADD TIMIG to give more power yo uneed to knw owhat timing your running and take out enough to make the total timing around 30 on the gas.. once the car is tuned you cna start increasing this but again stock pistons cannot handle those loads or heat... and they make a mess when they come apart.. i know.. good luck and hope this helps!!
Wes
The timing computer is necessary right now.. or make the ECM program reflect lower timing which will reflect lower NA performance.. keep in mind to MOST aftermarket tuners ADD TIMIG to give more power yo uneed to knw owhat timing your running and take out enough to make the total timing around 30 on the gas.. once the car is tuned you cna start increasing this but again stock pistons cannot handle those loads or heat... and they make a mess when they come apart.. i know.. good luck and hope this helps!!
Wes
