LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

Curious as to what others are doing with E85.

My target AFR is .82 lamba and I run a NGK -10 regardless of NA or largest tune up (2 stage plate kit with single .76n + dual 52n), I have not had a fouled plug gaped at .0026". As a starting point for each tune up, I have been pulling 2* off the top + 2* for every 50rwhp but fine tune from there. I find it is with in 1-2* when reading the strap, the mark is 3/4 the way past the bend and heat goes about 1 1/2 threads deep.


Are you using a colder plug for N20 vs motor?
If so, how much colder for how big of a hit?


Are you pulling timing?
If so, how much for how big of a hit?


How big of a jet spread?
What is your fuel pressure?


Have you played with adding more fuel + more timing?
Did this result in the same AFR?
If you did, did you need a hotter plug to get it to ignite?


If you don't want this info public, I am happy to discuss via PM's.



Thanks for any info to help make my turd faster


Shaun

uraloser2me2

gen 1 stinger plate
ngk race plug heat range 7
5.3 ljms ls3 stage 4 cam
30 degrees timing
no retard
a/f 11.3 on gas scale
square jetted with a .52 5.5 psi fuel pressure

Bowtiedford

iTrader: (9)

subscribing, going to E85 on motor so also on Nitrous. I would think you wouldnt need such a cold plug (10 as you stated) with E85 as its also has an cooling effect.

VincesSS

iTrader: (1)

I'm at 63/34 jets with 950psi in the tank and 58psi fuel. 18 degrees of timing. Tuning on the dyno moving from 18 to 19 degrees picked up about 5hp, so we left it at 18. I'm sitting around 11:1 on gas scale. Playing with afr made very little difference as well. Judging by the plugs the tune up is soft, but it's picking up 10mph and .8 seconds in the 1/8th mile.

uraloser2me2

With E85 it depends on who you ask. Mark Sullens helped me with my carb and wants a hot plug with a lot of fuel to make power, but it seems most people try and tune E85 like gas and use colder plugs and pull timing with a leaner air/fuel ratio.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

The above statement are great for tuning, the same as I would share.

MY concern is directed at the "E" content of the E-85.

The, your, location is part of the factor as "pump" fuel varies from E-70 to E-85 depending on your area, brand of fuel, time of year.

The Benzine used to make E-85 IS LOW grade low octane.

Thus the "knock resistance" can chance from fill up/fill up.
What is your location/brand of fuel ?

I would also suggest a Coil Output Energy increase, the need based on HP increase.
This too effects the tuning method.

Lance

LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

I had a great discussion with Mark Sullens on Saturday. It's hard to trust keeping similar timing to that of an NA tune up on big hits. But I can see the theory, it's all in how the fuel burns.

Interesting data I received from another friend regarding
laminar flame speed based on lambda
laminar flame speed based on compression ratio (8-1cr --> 10-1cr --> 12-1cr).

Then another thought I had was, does the extra cold E85 (due to N20) need a hotter plug just to help ignite it? I am sure all of us using e85 will agree cold day starts are much harder than hot day starts. Does the fuel have time to warm back up? It really is only in the cyl for mili-seconds between each ignition. With a plate kit, I have to assume it has much more time to cool down than it does to heat back up.



I will be back on the dyno on Wed to see if there is any power to be had. The plan:

Dyno my current set up:
NA
100 hit
200 hit
300 hit

Change from a -10 --> -7

Work on NA tune by adding fuel .82 lambda --> .77 lambda
Add spark with the fatter AFR (27* now, will add 2* at a time)
If AFR leans out, I will add fuel back in
Rinse and repeat

If it keeps making power but I run out of injector (as I am already creeping up on this), I might disconnect the 1st stage N20 noid and keep adding fuel with a small fuel jet via the N20 kit. If it seems like it will keep making power with more fuel/timing, I will probably stop around 32-34* total.



Once NA is figured out, I will start small, 50hp hit with 0* timing pulled.

If the -7 plugs still looks ok at .75 to .77 lambda with the 50 hit and no timing pulled, I will go to 100hit with 0* timing pulled. I will keep doing this increase by 50hp until I see heat moving slightly passed the bend and in to the threads.

Once (if) I see heat move, I will pull 2* and continue the process.

If for some reason it does not look like I can keep the heat out of the plug, I will put -8 plugs in it or even colder.


I have lots of -7, -8, -9 plugs to play with.






Besides power, I will be looking to see how quickly the drum is accelerated from the existing tune ups to the new ones.



Hopefully I don't burn **** up

VincesSS

iTrader: (1)

If you are able to give us all that information you are the man!

Bowtiedford

iTrader: (9)

it will be interesting to see the results, I'm just looking for a safer tune, I run about 16* of timing and a 8 plug with X16 in my standalone. Every step colder plug pulls about 100* combustion temp so I might try back on 7's. Some of the turbo guys told me they saw over 100* drop in their IAT , one of the reasons they see easily over 100 hp increase switching to E85.

erskine

iTrader: (5)

i run ignite red e90. i got high compression but i basically ran it like a gas tune. if i ran na timing on nitrous i would of melted everything down. dont see how people are getting away with it. but i had afr lean at 12.5 on nitrous.

LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

Here is the quick low down:


Fuel Pressure 65lbs
Ethanol Content 87%
2 Stage NX 4150 plate


Base Line Tunes all on -10 plug (too lazy to change them)
NA .82 Lambda with 27* = 478rwhp
Single Stage 57n 35f .82 Lambda with 23* = 658rwhp
Dual 57n 35f .82 Lambda with 13* = 713rwhp


Revised Tunes
NA Best turned out to be .77 Lambda with 29* timing on a -7 plug = 505rwhp
Single Stage 57n turned out to be .77 Lambda 27* timing on a -8 plug (710rwhp)
Did not have time to work on the dual 57n jet tune up


During the 5hrs on the dyno I tried everything from .73 Lambda to .82 with varying timing.

NA I tried putting up to 33* at .73 --> .77 Lambda with no gains and heat starting to round the bend on the strap.

The single 57n tune, I started with a 41f jet at 25* and it looked like it could use a little more timing.
Put 27* and the heat was moving past the bend.
Moved the fuel jet to the 46 and it was perfect.
Went up to a 51f leaving timing at 27* and power backed up almost 20rwhp - the plug showed more heat while Lambda reported it was richer .75. It just didn't feel right and decided we were done.


Being I had to get home, I did not get a chance to try the dual 57n at .77 lambda and find the right timing. I will however be dialing it in Dec/4 at the track. I might just toss a -9 in it and put timing to 20* to feel better before putting it down the track, make an 1/8 pass and take a look.

I will likely pull a couple more degrees of timing on the above revised tunes when I get to the track Dec/4 as track load IS different than the dyno.



Hope some others find this helpful.

erskine

iTrader: (5)

nice. i run a stinger gen2 plate. i run coldest ngk plug makes. on a 250 shot i was melting plugs with timing around 23 degrees. i guess all cars like different stuff. but i ran it lean. seems like next year i will riching it up.

brandon@nitrousoutlet

iTrader: (2)

I would lean towards it being overtimed as the reason it was melting plugs. Treat the motor like it has 28 degrees and pull timing from there. You can always work the timing back into it.

LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

Hi Brandon,

Knowing what I know now (or at least think I do) I would suggest people find their best AFR/timing combo via motor. From there, start with the smallest possible hit they can (50hp if possible) with 1 step cooler plug and little to no timing advance pulled. Read the plugs. Adjust lambda/timing until max power is seen with the temperature on the plug being slightly conservative. Once that tune up is dialed, put another 50hp in and do similar. Keep doing this until your desired power level is reached.

I say this as the white papers I have seen on how e85 burns suggests you will need more/less timing based on compression ratio as flame speed changes with varying compression ratios; flame speed doesn’t always speed up with higher compression.

Too far retarded even in NA situations creates undue heat.
Too far retarded also could leave excess unburnt fuel in the cyl as the exhaust valve is opening. This fuel is going to continue to burn as it exits the cyl and could torch exhaust valves.

I am not sure I would always recommend pulling timing. I have talked to a very good friend that has torched a few sets of valves by pulling timing. He now has more timing in it than ever, going faster on a smaller hit and the exhaust valves live. He is the very reason I was back on the dyno. BTW, he likes your Stinger 3 plate, just wishes you had flow numbers on it....

In the end, it is all about safely maximizing peak cyl pressure where any given engine needs it.

brandon@nitrousoutlet

iTrader: (2)

Being under timed wont kill a motor in one or two passes while you determine what the motor wants. Being overtimed can end your day the second you let go of the trans brake. I know which way I'd rather end up on. Like I said you can always put the timing back. I'd much rather that than buying parts.
I'm always on the conservative side. If you want, feel free to call me and I can help steer you in the right direction when it comes to your tuning process.

LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

Not always true...

Being under timed can kill a motor in 1 pass! Just depends on if it is severely under timed or slightly under timed.

E85 is showing to not want the tune up that gas does, meaning 2* for every 50hp of n20 jet may not hold true. That could be the the wrong tune up and hurt the motor on larger hits. And heck, +200rwhp with a single 57n jet....

Flame speed is going to dictate amount of advance required, and combo coupled with lambda is going to dictate flame speed. This is why I am suggesting starting small and step up incrementally.

erskine

iTrader: (5)

ya just hurt two spark plugs. i was trying to keep the timing i had it at with a 200 shot. i put 250 jets in and cut 2 deg of timing and didnt pick up any et or mph. so i put 2 more deg into and didnt help either since i hurt plugs at that point. maybe it wanted more fuel. but season over with this year. i will be testing on a dyno in the spring.

baronsmith98

iTrader: (2)

Can you elaborate on how being undertimed can kill a motor that quickly? I've never heard this before, just trying to learn.

LIL SS

iTrader: (9)

When retarding timing, ignition starts later. If the fuel takes longer to burn (e85 with high compression with certain lambdas) there could be a lot of residual fuel left to burn in the cyl. When the exhaust valve opens, that residual fuel could torch exhaust valves.

So, the more you retard the timing, the more this could become an issue.

A good budy was fighting this. He found it was way under timed for his 14-1cr motor. Added a bit of advance and went just as fast on a 100hp smaller n20 jet and no longer torching valves.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

The chance to use a fuel, a common fuel for buses, made for HIGH COMPRESSION/TURBOCHARGED engines used in bus operation is great in some areas of the world.

This fuel is named E-95, a high performance "blend" of Ethanol and ????

Would you have the ability to find E-95 "bus" fuel in your area ?

ALL users could provide local reports.

Lance